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Re: Osc -5/+5 or -10/+10 Phase Mod question.

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  • k9k9dog
    i ll let some one else explain this, who actually knows, but i m bumpin it, because i d also welcome more info. as far as i can work out, you re shifting
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 23, 2012
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      i'll let some one else explain this, who actually knows,
      but i'm bumpin' it, because i'd also welcome more info.
      as far as i can work out, you're shifting phase x degrees
      this way or that. maybe you're going all the way round :)
      (eg, going back to the same point)

      --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, simonecuttlefish <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Synth Edit V1.1914 FULL
      >
      > Hi. I read in the help that the SE Osc accepts -5 to +5 as the range for it's Phase Mod input. I can hear very usable ranges from -10 to +10 volts and I'm wondering what's going on. PM Depth is set to 10. Does anyone else hear this?
      > Thanks.
      >
    • xoxosvst
      most phase implementations wrap around, so +/-5 is the same as 0-10, except for a 180 deg. offset the way to discern this without waiting for a reply from the
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 24, 2012
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        most phase implementations wrap around, so +/-5 is the same as 0-10, except for a 180 deg. offset

        the way to discern this without waiting for a reply from the list is to connect two oscillators to the same scope, one green, one yellow.

        set pitch to 5, and modulate the phase of the 2nd, yellow oscillator. that should tell you exactly how the phase param works.

        (iirc the native oscillator's response is dependent on a phase amount, so doubling this value would double the response)




        --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, simonecuttlefish <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Synth Edit V1.1914 FULL
        >
        > Hi. I read in the help that the SE Osc accepts -5 to +5 as the range for it's Phase Mod input. I can hear very usable ranges from -10 to +10 volts and I'm wondering what's going on. PM Depth is set to 10. Does anyone else hear this?
        > Thanks.
        >
      • Eric Langou
        hello, attempting to build some fresh sound, i study the possibilities to do my own filter based on the real world . i guess all experiment had done about,
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 11 11:35 PM
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          hello,

          attempting to build some fresh sound,
          i study the possibilities to do my own
          filter based on the 'real world'.
          i guess all experiment had done about, but
          there is something impossible to do with SE
          before to loose my time :) ?

          cheers,
          Eric

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
        • aainslie@rocketmail.com
          Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you re into C++, a very good starting point would be to google delayless feedback . All regular filters have a 1-sample
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 19 5:15 AM
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            Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you're into C++, a very good starting point would be to google "delayless feedback". All regular filters have a 1-sample delay in their feedback path - which messes with the phase and hence the resonance of especially all-pole filters(SV,moog,303etc.), in the analog domain - feedback is instant. But you can actually predict - what the feedback would be - and use that instead! The math is pretty scary though! The nice thing though is that - even without 2X oversampling - a delayless feedback SV LP filter still retains its LP characteritics above samplerate/4 - tracking still gets a bit wonky though, but the noise performance with fast modulation is still retained(some say even improved). Then there is also non-linearities - Q-limiters etc etc - that can complicate things even more.

            I've only got into this whole 'delayless feedback' thing - a couple of days ago, and have done a SV delayless feedback LP filter - and the CPU is looking decent so far:
            Native LP SV: 0.145%CPU
            DLF LP SV: 0.176%CPU (double precision)
            DLF LP SV: 0.153%CPU (single precision)

            Regards
            Andrew




            --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@...> wrote:
            >
            > hello,
            >
            > attempting to build some fresh sound,
            > i study the possibilities to do my own
            > filter based on the 'real world'.
            > i guess all experiment had done about, but
            > there is something impossible to do with SE
            > before to loose my time :) ?
            >
            > cheers,
            > Eric
            >
            > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
            > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
            >
          • Eric Langou
            Hi Andrew, not with code, i m too bad (or too lazy?) the idea is just to clone a classic ampOP RC based circuit. some quick test have done with ck_capacitor +
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 19 7:53 AM
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              Hi Andrew,

              not with code, i'm too bad (or too lazy?)
              the idea is just to clone a classic ampOP RC based circuit.
              some quick test have done with ck_capacitor + delay + feedback etc
              and seems OK. But your reply is interesting, confirming
              a few problem encountered (delay compensation)

              cheers,
              Eric



              >Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you're into C++, a very good starting point would be to google "delayless feedback". All regular filters have a 1-sample delay in their feedback path - which messes with the phase and hence the resonance of especially all-pole filters(SV,moog,303etc.), in the analog domain - feedback is instant. But you can actually predict - what the feedback would be - and use that instead! The math is pretty scary though! The nice thing though is that - even without 2X oversampling - a delayless feedback SV LP filter still retains its LP characteritics above samplerate/4 - tracking still gets a bit wonky though, but the noise performance with fast modulation is still retained(some say even improved). Then there is also non-linearities - Q-limiters etc etc - that can complicate things even more.
              >
              >I've only got into this whole 'delayless feedback' thing - a couple of days ago, and have done a SV delayless feedback LP filter - and the CPU is looking decent so far:
              >Native LP SV: 0.145%CPU
              >DLF LP SV: 0.176%CPU (double precision)
              >DLF LP SV: 0.153%CPU (single precision)
              >
              >Regards
              >Andrew
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> hello,
              >>
              >> attempting to build some fresh sound,
              >> i study the possibilities to do my own
              >> filter based on the 'real world'.
              >> i guess all experiment had done about, but
              >> there is something impossible to do with SE
              >> before to loose my time :) ?
              >>
              >> cheers,
              >> Eric
              >>
              >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
              >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
              >>
              >
              >
              >
            • k9k9dog
              hi Andrew, OffTopic here, but you did ask for requests(...) would you consider coding a module to send sysex variables? sorry for butting in, but i m just
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 19 10:41 AM
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                hi Andrew,
                OffTopic here, but you did ask for requests(...)
                would you consider coding a module to send sysex variables?
                sorry for butting in, but i'm just checking the 'dailies' :o)
                would be really handy for lots of people, and the time has come
                for VST control of hardware to be much easier+costfree. even an
                atari can do this with ease.(ugh, well, you can charge fer it if
                you want to, or just be a VST hero...)

                --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Andrew,
                >
                > not with code, i'm too bad (or too lazy?)
                > the idea is just to clone a classic ampOP RC based circuit.
                > some quick test have done with ck_capacitor + delay + feedback etc
                > and seems OK. But your reply is interesting, confirming
                > a few problem encountered (delay compensation)
                >
                > cheers,
                > Eric
                >
                >
                >
                > >Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you're into C++, a very good starting point would be to google "delayless feedback". All regular filters have a 1-sample delay in their feedback path - which messes with the phase and hence the resonance of especially all-pole filters(SV,moog,303etc.), in the analog domain - feedback is instant. But you can actually predict - what the feedback would be - and use that instead! The math is pretty scary though! The nice thing though is that - even without 2X oversampling - a delayless feedback SV LP filter still retains its LP characteritics above samplerate/4 - tracking still gets a bit wonky though, but the noise performance with fast modulation is still retained(some say even improved). Then there is also non-linearities - Q-limiters etc etc - that can complicate things even more.
                > >
                > >I've only got into this whole 'delayless feedback' thing - a couple of days ago, and have done a SV delayless feedback LP filter - and the CPU is looking decent so far:
                > >Native LP SV: 0.145%CPU
                > >DLF LP SV: 0.176%CPU (double precision)
                > >DLF LP SV: 0.153%CPU (single precision)
                > >
                > >Regards
                > >Andrew
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> hello,
                > >>
                > >> attempting to build some fresh sound,
                > >> i study the possibilities to do my own
                > >> filter based on the 'real world'.
                > >> i guess all experiment had done about, but
                > >> there is something impossible to do with SE
                > >> before to loose my time :) ?
                > >>
                > >> cheers,
                > >> Eric
                > >>
                > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
                > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • aainslie@rocketmail.com
                Hey k9k9dog, unfortunately - I have near none experience with sysex or midi for that matter - nor do I have much interest in it. My SEM programming lies near
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 19 2:15 PM
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                  Hey k9k9dog, unfortunately - I have near none experience with sysex or midi for that matter - nor do I have much interest in it. My SEM programming lies near exclusively with 'audio processing' - most Synthedit users probably dream of owning a 303 or juno60 or something, while I dream of a Dytronics Tri-Stereo Chorus or a Fairchild 667. I only build effects, haven't done a single Synth yet.
                  Sorry!
                  I am however making some nifty SV, Moog, 303 type filters for SE1.2 (requires oversampling due to non-linearities) - for ya guys - for free, some of them are even of the "delayless feedback"/"trapeziodal intergration" type - which is probably the latest buzzword in digital filter design these past few years. Trying to avoid Biquads like the plague - for 'modulating filter types' - because of the poor noise/precision performance. Currently on filter design number 14 - will try and do about 25 variations.

                  Regards

                  Andrew

                  --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, "k9k9dog" <domgoold@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > hi Andrew,
                  > OffTopic here, but you did ask for requests(...)
                  > would you consider coding a module to send sysex variables?
                  > sorry for butting in, but i'm just checking the 'dailies' :o)
                  > would be really handy for lots of people, and the time has come
                  > for VST control of hardware to be much easier+costfree. even an
                  > atari can do this with ease.(ugh, well, you can charge fer it if
                  > you want to, or just be a VST hero...)
                  >
                  > --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Andrew,
                  > >
                  > > not with code, i'm too bad (or too lazy?)
                  > > the idea is just to clone a classic ampOP RC based circuit.
                  > > some quick test have done with ck_capacitor + delay + feedback etc
                  > > and seems OK. But your reply is interesting, confirming
                  > > a few problem encountered (delay compensation)
                  > >
                  > > cheers,
                  > > Eric
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you're into C++, a very good starting point would be to google "delayless feedback". All regular filters have a 1-sample delay in their feedback path - which messes with the phase and hence the resonance of especially all-pole filters(SV,moog,303etc.), in the analog domain - feedback is instant. But you can actually predict - what the feedback would be - and use that instead! The math is pretty scary though! The nice thing though is that - even without 2X oversampling - a delayless feedback SV LP filter still retains its LP characteritics above samplerate/4 - tracking still gets a bit wonky though, but the noise performance with fast modulation is still retained(some say even improved). Then there is also non-linearities - Q-limiters etc etc - that can complicate things even more.
                  > > >
                  > > >I've only got into this whole 'delayless feedback' thing - a couple of days ago, and have done a SV delayless feedback LP filter - and the CPU is looking decent so far:
                  > > >Native LP SV: 0.145%CPU
                  > > >DLF LP SV: 0.176%CPU (double precision)
                  > > >DLF LP SV: 0.153%CPU (single precision)
                  > > >
                  > > >Regards
                  > > >Andrew
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >> hello,
                  > > >>
                  > > >> attempting to build some fresh sound,
                  > > >> i study the possibilities to do my own
                  > > >> filter based on the 'real world'.
                  > > >> i guess all experiment had done about, but
                  > > >> there is something impossible to do with SE
                  > > >> before to loose my time :) ?
                  > > >>
                  > > >> cheers,
                  > > >> Eric
                  > > >>
                  > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
                  > > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
                  > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Eric Langou
                  maybe an interesting topic for you : http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=346155&start=0
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 19 2:32 PM
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                    maybe an interesting topic for you :
                    http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=346155&start=0

                    >Hey k9k9dog, unfortunately - I have near none experience with sysex or midi for that matter - nor do I have much interest in it. My SEM programming lies near exclusively with 'audio processing' - most Synthedit users probably dream of owning a 303 or juno60 or something, while I dream of a Dytronics Tri-Stereo Chorus or a Fairchild 667. I only build effects, haven't done a single Synth yet.
                    >Sorry!
                    >I am however making some nifty SV, Moog, 303 type filters for SE1.2 (requires oversampling due to non-linearities) - for ya guys - for free, some of them are even of the "delayless feedback"/"trapeziodal intergration" type - which is probably the latest buzzword in digital filter design these past few years. Trying to avoid Biquads like the plague - for 'modulating filter types' - because of the poor noise/precision performance. Currently on filter design number 14 - will try and do about 25 variations.
                    >
                    >Regards
                    >
                    >Andrew
                    >
                    >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, "k9k9dog" <domgoold@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> hi Andrew,
                    >> OffTopic here, but you did ask for requests(...)
                    >> would you consider coding a module to send sysex variables?
                    >> sorry for butting in, but i'm just checking the 'dailies' :o)
                    >> would be really handy for lots of people, and the time has come
                    >> for VST control of hardware to be much easier+costfree. even an
                    >> atari can do this with ease.(ugh, well, you can charge fer it if
                    >> you want to, or just be a VST hero...)
                    >>
                    >> --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > Hi Andrew,
                    >> >
                    >> > not with code, i'm too bad (or too lazy?)
                    >> > the idea is just to clone a classic ampOP RC based circuit.
                    >> > some quick test have done with ck_capacitor + delay + feedback etc
                    >> > and seems OK. But your reply is interesting, confirming
                    >> > a few problem encountered (delay compensation)
                    >> >
                    >> > cheers,
                    >> > Eric
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > >Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you're into C++, a very good starting point would be to google "delayless feedback". All regular filters have a 1-sample delay in their feedback path - which messes with the phase and hence the resonance of especially all-pole filters(SV,moog,303etc.), in the analog domain - feedback is instant. But you can actually predict - what the feedback would be - and use that instead! The math is pretty scary though! The nice thing though is that - even without 2X oversampling - a delayless feedback SV LP filter still retains its LP characteritics above samplerate/4 - tracking still gets a bit wonky though, but the noise performance with fast modulation is still retained(some say even improved). Then there is also non-linearities - Q-limiters etc etc - that can complicate things even more.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >I've only got into this whole 'delayless feedback' thing - a couple of days ago, and have done a SV delayless feedback LP filter - and the CPU is looking decent so far:
                    >> > >Native LP SV: 0.145%CPU
                    >> > >DLF LP SV: 0.176%CPU (double precision)
                    >> > >DLF LP SV: 0.153%CPU (single precision)
                    >> > >
                    >> > >Regards
                    >> > >Andrew
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> hello,
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> attempting to build some fresh sound,
                    >> > >> i study the possibilities to do my own
                    >> > >> filter based on the 'real world'.
                    >> > >> i guess all experiment had done about, but
                    >> > >> there is something impossible to do with SE
                    >> > >> before to loose my time :) ?
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> cheers,
                    >> > >> Eric
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
                    >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
                    >> > >>
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • aainslie@rocketmail.com
                    Yip, I ve done that one... Regards Andrew
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 19 4:34 PM
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                      Yip, I've done that one...

                      Regards
                      Andrew

                      --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > maybe an interesting topic for you :
                      > http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=346155&start=0
                      >
                      > >Hey k9k9dog, unfortunately - I have near none experience with sysex or midi for that matter - nor do I have much interest in it. My SEM programming lies near exclusively with 'audio processing' - most Synthedit users probably dream of owning a 303 or juno60 or something, while I dream of a Dytronics Tri-Stereo Chorus or a Fairchild 667. I only build effects, haven't done a single Synth yet.
                      > >Sorry!
                      > >I am however making some nifty SV, Moog, 303 type filters for SE1.2 (requires oversampling due to non-linearities) - for ya guys - for free, some of them are even of the "delayless feedback"/"trapeziodal intergration" type - which is probably the latest buzzword in digital filter design these past few years. Trying to avoid Biquads like the plague - for 'modulating filter types' - because of the poor noise/precision performance. Currently on filter design number 14 - will try and do about 25 variations.
                      > >
                      > >Regards
                      > >
                      > >Andrew
                      > >
                      > >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, "k9k9dog" <domgoold@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> hi Andrew,
                      > >> OffTopic here, but you did ask for requests(...)
                      > >> would you consider coding a module to send sysex variables?
                      > >> sorry for butting in, but i'm just checking the 'dailies' :o)
                      > >> would be really handy for lots of people, and the time has come
                      > >> for VST control of hardware to be much easier+costfree. even an
                      > >> atari can do this with ease.(ugh, well, you can charge fer it if
                      > >> you want to, or just be a VST hero...)
                      > >>
                      > >> --- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                      > >> >
                      > >> > Hi Andrew,
                      > >> >
                      > >> > not with code, i'm too bad (or too lazy?)
                      > >> > the idea is just to clone a classic ampOP RC based circuit.
                      > >> > some quick test have done with ck_capacitor + delay + feedback etc
                      > >> > and seems OK. But your reply is interesting, confirming
                      > >> > a few problem encountered (delay compensation)
                      > >> >
                      > >> > cheers,
                      > >> > Eric
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> > >Hey Eric! This is a very big topic. If you're into C++, a very good starting point would be to google "delayless feedback". All regular filters have a 1-sample delay in their feedback path - which messes with the phase and hence the resonance of especially all-pole filters(SV,moog,303etc.), in the analog domain - feedback is instant. But you can actually predict - what the feedback would be - and use that instead! The math is pretty scary though! The nice thing though is that - even without 2X oversampling - a delayless feedback SV LP filter still retains its LP characteritics above samplerate/4 - tracking still gets a bit wonky though, but the noise performance with fast modulation is still retained(some say even improved). Then there is also non-linearities - Q-limiters etc etc - that can complicate things even more.
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >I've only got into this whole 'delayless feedback' thing - a couple of days ago, and have done a SV delayless feedback LP filter - and the CPU is looking decent so far:
                      > >> > >Native LP SV: 0.145%CPU
                      > >> > >DLF LP SV: 0.176%CPU (double precision)
                      > >> > >DLF LP SV: 0.153%CPU (single precision)
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >Regards
                      > >> > >Andrew
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >--- In syntheditusers@yahoogroups.com, Eric Langou <elangou@> wrote:
                      > >> > >>
                      > >> > >> hello,
                      > >> > >>
                      > >> > >> attempting to build some fresh sound,
                      > >> > >> i study the possibilities to do my own
                      > >> > >> filter based on the 'real world'.
                      > >> > >> i guess all experiment had done about, but
                      > >> > >> there is something impossible to do with SE
                      > >> > >> before to loose my time :) ?
                      > >> > >>
                      > >> > >> cheers,
                      > >> > >> Eric
                      > >> > >>
                      > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter
                      > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit
                      > >> > >>
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >
                      > >> > >
                      > >> >
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Eric Langou
                      hello, how to send a MIDI reset with only native module ? sometime with my last project (Quack) a note stay ON. cheers, Eric
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 26 10:05 PM
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                        hello,

                        how to send a MIDI reset with only native module ?
                        sometime with my last project (Quack) a note stay ON.

                        cheers,
                        Eric
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