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Re: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

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  • Peter Head
    Can you help me with a definition or example of heightened apocalyptic concern ? Peter ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25 6:20 AM
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      Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
      concern'?

      Peter

      At 01:16 PM 2/25/05, Jacob Knee wrote:
      >I'm looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements
      >in the Gospel of Matthew.
      >
      >Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber's 1994 thesis (Events of the End of the
      >Age) identify Streeter as the first scholar to claim there is a heightened
      >apocalyptic concern in Matthew (compared with Mark and Q).
      >
      >I too haven't been able to find any earlier scholar who made this claim
      >but any wonder if anyone else knows better?
      >
      >Best wishes,
      >Jacob Knee
      >(Cam, Glos.)

      Peter M. Head, PhD
      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
      566607
      Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
      http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm


      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
    • Daniel Gurtner
      I m sorry that I don t know the immediate answer to your question. However, it may be found in some of the following sources for apocalyptic work in Matthew. I
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 25 6:22 AM
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        I'm sorry that I don't know the immediate answer to your question. However, it may be found in some of the following sources for apocalyptic work in Matthew. I hope this helps:
         

        O. Lamar Cope, ��To the Close of the Age�: The Role of Apocalyptic Thought in the Gospel of Matthew.� Pages 113-24 in Apocalyptic and the New Testament: Essays in Honour of J. Louis Martyn Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series 24. Edited by J. Marcus and M. L. Soards. Sheffield: Aacademic Press, 1989.

        Hagner, D. A. �Apocalyptic Motifs in the Gospel of Matthew: Continuity and Discontinuity.� Horizons in Biblical Theology 7 (1985): 53-82.

        Orton, D. E. The Understanding Scribe: Matthew and the Apocalyptic Ideal. Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series 25. Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1989.

        Rowland, Christopher. �Apocalyptic, the Poor, and the Gospel of Matthew.� Journal of Theological Studies 45 (1994): 504-18.

        Sabourin, Leopold. �Apocalyptic Traits in Matthew�s Gospel.� Religious Studies Bulletin 3 (1983): 19-36.



        Jacob Knee <zen20458@...> wrote:
        I'm looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements in
        the Gospel of Matthew.



        Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber's 1994 thesis (Events of the End of the
        Age) identify Streeter as the first scholar to claim there is a heightened
        apocalyptic concern in Matthew (compared with Mark and Q).



        I too haven't been able to find any earlier scholar who made this claim but
        any wonder if anyone else knows better?



        Best wishes,

        Jacob Knee

        (Cam, Glos.)



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        Daniel M. Gurtner
        Ph.D. (Candidate), University of St Andrews (Scotland)
        Visiting Research Scholar, Tyndale House, Cambridge (England)

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      • Jacob Knee
        Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help: [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the picture and emphasize the
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 25 7:30 AM
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          Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help:

          [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the
          picture and emphasize the Apocalyptic side of eschatology is still more
          marked.’ (p 430 Oxford Studies)

          ‘Matthew not only adds weight to Mark’s Apocalypse by adding fresh materials
          so as to more than double its length; he also embellishes what he takes over
          from Mark with details from the conventional stock of Apocalyptic ideas’ (p
          431 Oxford Studies)

          'Mark, Luke, and John form a series, with a progressive tendency to
          emphasise the universal element in Christianity and to minimise the
          Apocalyptic. Matthew represents an independent development, which, as
          compared with Mark, shows a movement in the reverse direction in regard to
          both these points.' (p 394 Four Gospels)

          ‘it cannot be denied that as between Matthew and Mark there is a heightening
          of Apocalyptic interest. Thus in Mt.xxiv.29-31 = Mk.xiii.25-27 we find the
          addition by Matthew of various details, like the trumpet, derived from the
          conventional scenery of Jewish eschatology. Again, Matthew five times uses
          the phrase, "the end of the world," which does not occur elsewhere in the
          Gospels; he six times speaks of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," a phrase
          which occurs only once in Luke and nowhere else in the New Testament. Nor is
          it without significance that in chapter xiii. he refrains from pointing the
          moral of the parables of the Mustard Seed, Leaven, Hid Treasure, and Pearl
          of Great Price, to all of which it is difficult to give an Apocalyptic
          interpretation, but goes out of his way to add an explanation in terms of
          catastrophic eschatology to the parables of the Tares and the Drag Net.’ (p
          521 Four Gospels)

          Though Streeter never AFAIK explicitly defines what he means by apocalyptic
          he assumes the existence of a 'conventional' Jewish apocalyptic 'picture'
          which focuses on the end of the world. (I'd be interested to know where he
          gets this 'picture' from). The details of this 'conventional Jewish
          picture' include: visible return of Christ, trumpet, throne, crisis,
          catastrophy, darkness, angels, last judgement. He argues, I think, that
          Matthew heightens these elements in his Gospel to, so to say,
          'conventionalise' his story.

          I'm trying to find out if other scholars before Streeter had made this kind
          of argument. Streeter doesn't refer to anyone else - so he gives no pointers
          - and the 'cash value', so to say, of the Matthean argument is that it
          allows him to conclude (against Weiss, Schweitzer etc.) that not very much
          of this apocalyptic 'end of the world' imagery goes back Jesus. Streeter
          isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery - calling it at
          various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people who use it ''wild' or
          'fanatical'.

          Probably too much info. But does that help?

          Best wishes,
          Jacob Knee
          (Cam, Glos.)


          -----Original Message-----
          From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
          Behalf Of Peter Head
          Sent: 25 February 2005 14:21
          To: Synoptic-L@...
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

          Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
          concern'?

          Peter




          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • John C. Poirier
          ... It s interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize the pneumatology of Acts. John C. Poirier Middletown, Ohio Synoptic-L Homepage:
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 25 8:04 AM
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            Jacob Knee wrote:

            > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
            > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
            > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

            It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
            the pneumatology of Acts.


            John C. Poirier
            Middletown, Ohio



            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • Jacob Knee
            B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as grotesque oriental fancy (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is lurid , and John s preaching of judgement
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 25 8:40 AM
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              B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental fancy' (p
              419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and John's preaching of
              judgement is 'fervid'

              Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the Hellenistic
              Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the Synoptics to the true 'heart
              of Christ''

              Does Dodd prefer John too?

              Best wishes,
              Jacob Knee
              (Cam, Glos.)

              -----Original Message-----
              From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
              Behalf Of John C. Poirier
              Sent: 25 February 2005 16:05
              To: 'Synoptic-L'
              Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

              Jacob Knee wrote:

              > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
              > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
              > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

              It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
              the pneumatology of Acts.


              John C. Poirier
              Middletown, Ohio



              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...



              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • John C. Poirier
              ... These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is the mother of Christianity should cause such a stir. ... I m not sure about prefer , but
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 25 9:43 AM
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                Jacob Knee wrote:

                > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
                > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
                > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
                >
                > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
                > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
                > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

                These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
                of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

                > Does Dodd prefer John too?

                I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


                John C. Poirier
                Middletown, Ohio



                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • Jacob Knee
                Streeter s 1911 essay at the end of Oxford Studies on Synoptic Criticism and the Eschatological Problem starts by saying what a great problem has been
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 25 11:13 AM
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                  Streeter's 1911 essay at the end of 'Oxford Studies' on 'Synoptic Criticism
                  and the Eschatological Problem' starts by saying what a 'great problem' has
                  been 'acutely' forced upon scholars by the writings of 'Weiss, Schweitzer,
                  Loisy and Tyrrell as to how far the Apocalyptic eschatology of the primitive
                  Church really represented the mind of Christ.' (Not very much was his
                  considered answer).

                  On the other hand I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent
                  collection, 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that
                  F.C. Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer. Burkitt
                  sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to see what of his
                  was still in print.

                  Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of himself,
                  'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described Schweitzer's work as
                  'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                  Best wishes,
                  Jacob Knee
                  (Cam, Glos)

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
                  Behalf Of John C. Poirier
                  Sent: 25 February 2005 17:43
                  To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                  Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                  Jacob Knee wrote:

                  > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
                  > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
                  > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
                  >
                  > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
                  > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
                  > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

                  These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
                  of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

                  > Does Dodd prefer John too?

                  I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


                  John C. Poirier
                  Middletown, Ohio





                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • John C. Poirier
                  ... What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it, and
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 25 11:26 AM
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                    Jacob Knee wrote:

                    > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                    > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                    > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                    > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                    > see what of his was still in print.
                    >
                    > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                    > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                    > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                    What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                    Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                    and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                    In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                    I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                    apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                    John C. Poirier
                    Middletown, Ohio



                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • Jacob Knee
                    Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208). FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 25 12:25 PM
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                      Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in
                      Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).

                      FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:

                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1841271853/qid=1109362886/sr=
                      1-1/ref=sr_pb_a//104-3759134-6252714?condition=all

                      Best wishes,
                      Jacob Knee
                      (Cam, Glos.)

                      PS Usual disclaimers about no financial connection...


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                      Sent: 25 February 2005 19:27
                      To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                      Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                      Jacob Knee wrote:

                      > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                      > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                      > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                      > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                      > see what of his was still in print.
                      >
                      > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                      > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                      > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                      What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                      Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                      and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                      In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                      I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                      apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                      John C. Poirier
                      Middletown, Ohio





                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                    • John C. Poirier
                      Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on Why the Enlightenment
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 25 12:54 PM
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                        Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                        wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                        Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                        way)?

                        John C. Poirier
                        Middletown, Ohio


                        Jacob Knee wrote:

                        > Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology
                        > in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).
                        >
                        > FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:




                        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                      • Jacob Knee
                        It is. He s Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican Theological College here in the UK. He s a bibliography to download if it s helpful. It
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 25 2:27 PM
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                          It is. He's Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican
                          Theological College here in the UK.


                          He's a bibliography to download if it's helpful. It comes as an .rtf file
                          (watch the wrap)

                          http://www.oxford.anglican.org/rcc/Word_Documents/Mark_Chapman_publications.
                          rtf

                          Best wishes,
                          Jacob Knee
                          (Cam, Glos.)


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                          Sent: 25 February 2005 20:55
                          To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                          Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                          Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                          wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                          Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                          way)?

                          John C. Poirier
                          Middletown, Ohio




                          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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