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[Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

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  • Jacob Knee
    I m looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements in the Gospel of Matthew. Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber s 1994 thesis (Events of
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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      I’m looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements in the Gospel of Matthew.

       

      Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber’s 1994 thesis (Events of the End of the Age) identify Streeter as the first scholar to claim there is a heightened apocalyptic concern in Matthew (compared with Mark and Q).

       

      I too haven’t been able to find any earlier scholar who made this claim but any wonder if anyone else knows better?

       

      Best wishes,

      Jacob Knee

      ( Cam , Glos.)

    • Peter Head
      Can you help me with a definition or example of heightened apocalyptic concern ? Peter ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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        Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
        concern'?

        Peter

        At 01:16 PM 2/25/05, Jacob Knee wrote:
        >I'm looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements
        >in the Gospel of Matthew.
        >
        >Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber's 1994 thesis (Events of the End of the
        >Age) identify Streeter as the first scholar to claim there is a heightened
        >apocalyptic concern in Matthew (compared with Mark and Q).
        >
        >I too haven't been able to find any earlier scholar who made this claim
        >but any wonder if anyone else knows better?
        >
        >Best wishes,
        >Jacob Knee
        >(Cam, Glos.)

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
        566607
        Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
        http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm


        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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      • Daniel Gurtner
        I m sorry that I don t know the immediate answer to your question. However, it may be found in some of the following sources for apocalyptic work in Matthew. I
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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          I'm sorry that I don't know the immediate answer to your question. However, it may be found in some of the following sources for apocalyptic work in Matthew. I hope this helps:
           

          O. Lamar Cope, ��To the Close of the Age�: The Role of Apocalyptic Thought in the Gospel of Matthew.� Pages 113-24 in Apocalyptic and the New Testament: Essays in Honour of J. Louis Martyn Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series 24. Edited by J. Marcus and M. L. Soards. Sheffield: Aacademic Press, 1989.

          Hagner, D. A. �Apocalyptic Motifs in the Gospel of Matthew: Continuity and Discontinuity.� Horizons in Biblical Theology 7 (1985): 53-82.

          Orton, D. E. The Understanding Scribe: Matthew and the Apocalyptic Ideal. Journal for the Study of the New Testament Supplement Series 25. Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1989.

          Rowland, Christopher. �Apocalyptic, the Poor, and the Gospel of Matthew.� Journal of Theological Studies 45 (1994): 504-18.

          Sabourin, Leopold. �Apocalyptic Traits in Matthew�s Gospel.� Religious Studies Bulletin 3 (1983): 19-36.



          Jacob Knee <zen20458@...> wrote:
          I'm looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements in
          the Gospel of Matthew.



          Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber's 1994 thesis (Events of the End of the
          Age) identify Streeter as the first scholar to claim there is a heightened
          apocalyptic concern in Matthew (compared with Mark and Q).



          I too haven't been able to find any earlier scholar who made this claim but
          any wonder if anyone else knows better?



          Best wishes,

          Jacob Knee

          (Cam, Glos.)



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          Daniel M. Gurtner
          Ph.D. (Candidate), University of St Andrews (Scotland)
          Visiting Research Scholar, Tyndale House, Cambridge (England)

          Flat 7, 36 Selwyn Gardens
          Cambridge CB3 9BA
          England
          www.geocities.com/dgurtner


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        • Jacob Knee
          Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help: [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the picture and emphasize the
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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            Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help:

            [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the
            picture and emphasize the Apocalyptic side of eschatology is still more
            marked.’ (p 430 Oxford Studies)

            ‘Matthew not only adds weight to Mark’s Apocalypse by adding fresh materials
            so as to more than double its length; he also embellishes what he takes over
            from Mark with details from the conventional stock of Apocalyptic ideas’ (p
            431 Oxford Studies)

            'Mark, Luke, and John form a series, with a progressive tendency to
            emphasise the universal element in Christianity and to minimise the
            Apocalyptic. Matthew represents an independent development, which, as
            compared with Mark, shows a movement in the reverse direction in regard to
            both these points.' (p 394 Four Gospels)

            ‘it cannot be denied that as between Matthew and Mark there is a heightening
            of Apocalyptic interest. Thus in Mt.xxiv.29-31 = Mk.xiii.25-27 we find the
            addition by Matthew of various details, like the trumpet, derived from the
            conventional scenery of Jewish eschatology. Again, Matthew five times uses
            the phrase, "the end of the world," which does not occur elsewhere in the
            Gospels; he six times speaks of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," a phrase
            which occurs only once in Luke and nowhere else in the New Testament. Nor is
            it without significance that in chapter xiii. he refrains from pointing the
            moral of the parables of the Mustard Seed, Leaven, Hid Treasure, and Pearl
            of Great Price, to all of which it is difficult to give an Apocalyptic
            interpretation, but goes out of his way to add an explanation in terms of
            catastrophic eschatology to the parables of the Tares and the Drag Net.’ (p
            521 Four Gospels)

            Though Streeter never AFAIK explicitly defines what he means by apocalyptic
            he assumes the existence of a 'conventional' Jewish apocalyptic 'picture'
            which focuses on the end of the world. (I'd be interested to know where he
            gets this 'picture' from). The details of this 'conventional Jewish
            picture' include: visible return of Christ, trumpet, throne, crisis,
            catastrophy, darkness, angels, last judgement. He argues, I think, that
            Matthew heightens these elements in his Gospel to, so to say,
            'conventionalise' his story.

            I'm trying to find out if other scholars before Streeter had made this kind
            of argument. Streeter doesn't refer to anyone else - so he gives no pointers
            - and the 'cash value', so to say, of the Matthean argument is that it
            allows him to conclude (against Weiss, Schweitzer etc.) that not very much
            of this apocalyptic 'end of the world' imagery goes back Jesus. Streeter
            isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery - calling it at
            various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people who use it ''wild' or
            'fanatical'.

            Probably too much info. But does that help?

            Best wishes,
            Jacob Knee
            (Cam, Glos.)


            -----Original Message-----
            From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
            Behalf Of Peter Head
            Sent: 25 February 2005 14:21
            To: Synoptic-L@...
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

            Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
            concern'?

            Peter




            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • John C. Poirier
            ... It s interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize the pneumatology of Acts. John C. Poirier Middletown, Ohio Synoptic-L Homepage:
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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              Jacob Knee wrote:

              > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
              > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
              > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

              It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
              the pneumatology of Acts.


              John C. Poirier
              Middletown, Ohio



              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • Jacob Knee
              B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as grotesque oriental fancy (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is lurid , and John s preaching of judgement
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental fancy' (p
                419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and John's preaching of
                judgement is 'fervid'

                Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the Hellenistic
                Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the Synoptics to the true 'heart
                of Christ''

                Does Dodd prefer John too?

                Best wishes,
                Jacob Knee
                (Cam, Glos.)

                -----Original Message-----
                From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
                Behalf Of John C. Poirier
                Sent: 25 February 2005 16:05
                To: 'Synoptic-L'
                Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                Jacob Knee wrote:

                > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
                > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
                > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

                It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
                the pneumatology of Acts.


                John C. Poirier
                Middletown, Ohio



                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...



                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • John C. Poirier
                ... These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is the mother of Christianity should cause such a stir. ... I m not sure about prefer , but
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                  Jacob Knee wrote:

                  > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
                  > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
                  > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
                  >
                  > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
                  > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
                  > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

                  These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
                  of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

                  > Does Dodd prefer John too?

                  I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


                  John C. Poirier
                  Middletown, Ohio



                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • Jacob Knee
                  Streeter s 1911 essay at the end of Oxford Studies on Synoptic Criticism and the Eschatological Problem starts by saying what a great problem has been
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                    Streeter's 1911 essay at the end of 'Oxford Studies' on 'Synoptic Criticism
                    and the Eschatological Problem' starts by saying what a 'great problem' has
                    been 'acutely' forced upon scholars by the writings of 'Weiss, Schweitzer,
                    Loisy and Tyrrell as to how far the Apocalyptic eschatology of the primitive
                    Church really represented the mind of Christ.' (Not very much was his
                    considered answer).

                    On the other hand I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent
                    collection, 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that
                    F.C. Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer. Burkitt
                    sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to see what of his
                    was still in print.

                    Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of himself,
                    'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described Schweitzer's work as
                    'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                    Best wishes,
                    Jacob Knee
                    (Cam, Glos)

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
                    Behalf Of John C. Poirier
                    Sent: 25 February 2005 17:43
                    To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                    Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                    Jacob Knee wrote:

                    > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
                    > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
                    > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
                    >
                    > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
                    > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
                    > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

                    These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
                    of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

                    > Does Dodd prefer John too?

                    I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


                    John C. Poirier
                    Middletown, Ohio





                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • John C. Poirier
                    ... What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it, and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                      Jacob Knee wrote:

                      > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                      > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                      > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                      > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                      > see what of his was still in print.
                      >
                      > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                      > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                      > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                      What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                      Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                      and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                      In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                      I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                      apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                      John C. Poirier
                      Middletown, Ohio



                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                    • Jacob Knee
                      Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208). FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                        Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in
                        Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).

                        FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:

                        http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1841271853/qid=1109362886/sr=
                        1-1/ref=sr_pb_a//104-3759134-6252714?condition=all

                        Best wishes,
                        Jacob Knee
                        (Cam, Glos.)

                        PS Usual disclaimers about no financial connection...


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                        Sent: 25 February 2005 19:27
                        To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                        Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                        Jacob Knee wrote:

                        > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                        > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                        > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                        > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                        > see what of his was still in print.
                        >
                        > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                        > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                        > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                        What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                        Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                        and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                        In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                        I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                        apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                        John C. Poirier
                        Middletown, Ohio





                        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                      • John C. Poirier
                        Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on Why the Enlightenment
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                          Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                          wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                          Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                          way)?

                          John C. Poirier
                          Middletown, Ohio


                          Jacob Knee wrote:

                          > Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology
                          > in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).
                          >
                          > FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:




                          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                        • Jacob Knee
                          It is. He s Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican Theological College here in the UK. He s a bibliography to download if it s helpful. It
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                            It is. He's Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican
                            Theological College here in the UK.


                            He's a bibliography to download if it's helpful. It comes as an .rtf file
                            (watch the wrap)

                            http://www.oxford.anglican.org/rcc/Word_Documents/Mark_Chapman_publications.
                            rtf

                            Best wishes,
                            Jacob Knee
                            (Cam, Glos.)


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                            Sent: 25 February 2005 20:55
                            To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                            Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                            Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                            wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                            Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                            way)?

                            John C. Poirier
                            Middletown, Ohio




                            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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