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[Synoptic-L] RE: [XTalk] 1QSa 2.6

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  • John C. Poirier
    ... Yes, the defiled *would* drive the angels away, but the more immediate reason for forbidding these people is simply that the Qumranites conceived of
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 16, 2004
      Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

      > 1QSa 2.6 excludes a number of categories of people from the
      > congregation, including "everyone who is defiled in his flesh,
      > paralysed in his feet or in his hands, lame, blind, deaf, dumb
      > or defiled in his flesh with a blemish visible to the eyes, or
      > the tottering old man who cannot keep upright in the midst of
      > the assembly" (Martinez' translation), because they are defiled
      > and the holy angels are present.
      >
      > And as I note after having consulted the text, these defiled
      > folk also seem to be refused admittance to the congregation
      > when the Messiah arrives to take his place in the midst of the
      > congregation and to initiate the Messianic banquet.
      >
      > Am I right in thinking that the text assumes that should the
      > defiled appear in the congregation, their presence would drive
      > the angels from its midst? If so, why? And why would the
      > Messiah not wish to have anything to do with them/to exclude
      > them from the Messianic banquet?

      Yes, the defiled *would* drive the angels away, but the more immediate
      reason for forbidding these people is simply that the Qumranites conceived
      of themselves as a priestly community, and these categories were forbidden
      from the priesthood (see Lev. 21:16-24). Only perfection can enter the
      sacred precincts.

      I'm not so sure the Messiah would "not wish to have anything to do with"
      these people *per se*--it's more a matter of the community having a sacral
      boundary, and it's probably unfair to expect the Qumranites to relax that
      idea in favor of a more inclusive reception committee for the Messiah.


      John C. Poirier
      Middletown, Ohio



      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... from the congregation, including everyone who is defiled in his flesh, paralysed in his feet or in his hands, lame, blind, deaf, dumb or defiled in his
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 16, 2004
        Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

        >>1QSa 2.6 excludes a number of categories of people
        from the congregation, including "everyone who is
        defiled in his flesh, paralysed in his feet or in his
        hands, lame, blind, deaf, dumb or defiled in his flesh
        with a blemish visible to the eyes, or the tottering
        old man who cannot keep upright in the midst of the
        assembly" (Martinez' translation), because they are
        defiled and the holy angels are present.

        And as I note after having consulted the text, these
        defiled folk also seem to be refused admittance to the
        congregation when the Messiah arrives to take his
        place in the midst of the congregation and to initiate
        the Messianic banquet.

        Am I right in thinking that the text assumes that
        should the defiled appear in the congregation, their
        presence would drive the angels from its midst? If
        so, why? And why would the Messiah not wish to have
        anything to do with them/to exclude them from the
        Messianic banquet?<<

        John C. Poirier wrote:

        >>Yes, the defiled *would* drive the angels away, but
        the more immediate reason for forbidding these people
        is simply that the Qumranites conceived of themselves
        as a priestly community, and these categories were
        forbidden from the priesthood (see Lev. 21:16-24).
        Only perfection can enter the sacred precincts.

        I'm not so sure the Messiah would "not wish to have
        anything to do with" these people *per se*--it's more
        a matter of the community having a sacral boundary,
        and it's probably unfair to expect the Qumranites to
        relax that idea in favor of a more inclusive reception
        committee for the Messiah.<<

        I (Jeffery Hodges, not Jeffrey Gibson) suggest:

        I think that the the purity regulations effective for
        the priesthood would have as their aim the ensuring
        that the holiness of the temple is not endangered and
        that the Holy One would not withdraw from the temple.

        On this paradigm, holy angels would be likely to
        withdraw from the Qumran community if impurity were
        present.

        The issue of the holy messiah and impurity is more
        complex, it seems to me. I don't know enough about
        this, but if the messiah is expected to come and to
        heal the infirm and to expel the spirit of impurity
        from the land and similar such acts, then it would
        seem that an encounter with impurity would be sought
        out in order to defeat it, that holiness would not
        withdraw but, rather, expel impurity.

        Any thoughts and/or textual citations?

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Seo-Dong 125-2
        Shin-Dong-A, Apt. 102-709
        447-710 Kyunggido, Osan-City
        South Korea

        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • John Lupia
        The Qumran Community would marginalize this sect of infirm citizens and is in direct opposition and contrastive to the Gospel account and message. Where the
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 16, 2004
          The Qumran Community would marginalize this sect of
          infirm citizens and is in direct opposition and
          contrastive to the Gospel account and message. Where
          the infirm at Qumran are excluded they are inclusive
          for Jesus and his Church. If 1QSa2.6 was inscribed in
          stone or a bronze plaque nailed on the wooden door of
          the synagogue it would exclude many creating the
          congregation of the ideal in Plato's Republic.

          Hempel has made insightful suggestions that the
          physical defects of the blind, lame and mute
          correspond to moral deficencies, namely, the blind are
          apt to fail in the laws regarding mixtures, the deaf
          cannot hear the Word of God and the commandments, and
          so on. On one hand, those who cannot glorify God
          appropriately due to some physical incapacity would,
          it seems, offend the angels and incur their wrath
          since their zeal is consumed in seeking his glory and
          praise. On the other hand, the holy angels are with
          those who do not have infirmities giving them ritual
          impurity, implying that those who are infirm do not
          have the presence or protection of an angel due to the
          judgment of God.

          See Charlotte Hempel, The Laws of the Damascus
          Document and 4QMMT. Available online:
          www.http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums/3rd/papers/Hempel98.html#fnref30


          --- "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
          wrote:

          > With thanks to David Suter for pointing this out to
          > me:
          >
          >
          > 1QSa 2.6 excludes a number of categories of people
          > from the
          > congregation, including "everyone who is defiled in
          > his flesh, paralysed
          > in his feet or in his hands, lame, blind, deaf, dumb
          > or defiled in his
          > flesh with a blemish visible to the eyes, or the
          > tottering old man who
          > cannot keep upright in the midst of the assembly"
          > (Martinez'
          > translation), because they are defiled and the holy
          > angels are present.
          >
          > And as I note after having consulted the text, these
          > defiled folk also
          > seem to be refused admittance to the congregation
          > when the Messiah
          > arrives to take his place in the midst of the
          > congregation and to
          > initiate the Messianic banquet.
          >
          > Am I right in thinking that the text assumes that
          > should the defiled
          > appear in the congregation, their presence would
          > drive the angels from
          > its midst? If so, why? And why would the Messiah
          > not wish to have
          > anything to do with them/to exclude them from the
          > Messianic banquet?
          >
          > Yours,
          >
          > Jeffrey Gibson
          >
          > Yours,
          >
          > Jeffrey Gibson
          > --
          >
          > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
          >
          > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          > Chicago, IL 60626
          >
          > jgibson000@...
          >
          > Synoptic-L Homepage:
          > http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          >


          =====
          John N. Lupia, III
          Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
          Fax: (732) 349-3910
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
          God Bless America



          __________________________________
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          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • Jacob Knee
          I really enjoyed reading Jeffrey s paper and hope everything went well at SBL. How was the discussion? I want to raise three questions for possible discussion:
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 22, 2004
            I really enjoyed reading Jeffrey's paper and hope everything went well at
            SBL. How was the discussion?

            I want to raise three questions for possible discussion:

            1. Just to suggest a distinction between defiling (making profane) and
            contaminating (making impure). Am I right to think that blemished priests
            defile (in certain circumstances) but do not make impure?

            2. I wonder if the Qumran legislation reflects a distinctive view within the
            Jewish debates over the Temple/eschatological war camp? According to Milgrom
            - the Mishnah suggests that blemished priests were given tasks to do in the
            Temple (sorting wood, being one). Actually 2 Sam 5.8, Mishnah and Qumran all
            contain more extensive prohibitions than Leviticus. If the Levitical
            legislation was followed, not only could blemished priests enter the Temple
            (though not offer sacrifices) they could eat sacred most sacred food - which
            could only be consumed within the sacred court (Lev 21.22 see also eg Lev
            6.9).

            3. Is there evidence that 'blemished' non-priests were seen as defiling? (2
            Sam 5.7-8 bans the blind and lame from the Temple not because they defile,
            or contaminate, but because David hates them).

            Thanks again for a really interesting paper.

            Best wishes,
            Jacob Knee
            (Cam, Glos.)



            -----Original Message-----
            From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
            Behalf Of Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Sent: 16 November 2004 18:40
            To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com; Synoptic-L@...
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] RE: [XTalk] 1QSa 2.6

            Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:

            >>1QSa 2.6 excludes a number of categories of people
            from the congregation, including "everyone who is
            defiled in his flesh, paralysed in his feet or in his
            hands, lame, blind, deaf, dumb or defiled in his flesh
            with a blemish visible to the eyes, or the tottering
            old man who cannot keep upright in the midst of the
            assembly" (Martinez' translation), because they are
            defiled and the holy angels are present.

            And as I note after having consulted the text, these
            defiled folk also seem to be refused admittance to the
            congregation when the Messiah arrives to take his
            place in the midst of the congregation and to initiate
            the Messianic banquet.

            Am I right in thinking that the text assumes that
            should the defiled appear in the congregation, their
            presence would drive the angels from its midst? If
            so, why? And why would the Messiah not wish to have
            anything to do with them/to exclude them from the
            Messianic banquet?<<

            John C. Poirier wrote:

            >>Yes, the defiled *would* drive the angels away, but
            the more immediate reason for forbidding these people
            is simply that the Qumranites conceived of themselves
            as a priestly community, and these categories were
            forbidden from the priesthood (see Lev. 21:16-24).
            Only perfection can enter the sacred precincts.

            I'm not so sure the Messiah would "not wish to have
            anything to do with" these people *per se*--it's more
            a matter of the community having a sacral boundary,
            and it's probably unfair to expect the Qumranites to
            relax that idea in favor of a more inclusive reception
            committee for the Messiah.<<




            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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