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[Synoptic-L] response to Dr. Gibson regarding translation.

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  • RickR370@aol.com
    Actually, what  comes after KAQWS ( just as ) is not ** just as it stands (is) written , but simply it stands (is) written .  Where do you get the extra
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 17, 2004
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      Actually, what  comes after KAQWS ("just as") is not "** just as it stands (is) written", but simply "it stands (is) written".  Where do you get the extra "just as" that you seem to be positing? And isn't it the case that when Mark elsewhere uses  KAQWS GEGRAPTAI, as he does here -- i.e.,  before a scriptural citation, the expression functions expressly as a "citation formula"? After all that's how it functions not only in all of the rest of its appearances in the NT, as well as when it is used in the LXX, the Acts of Philip, the Apophthegmata), the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Apocalypsis Eliae, by Clement of Rome and Clement of Alexandria and Irenaus, and (albeit in its Hebrew counterpart) in the DSS and the Rabbinic literature, but also in the works of such "secular" writers as Heron Mechnicus and Vettius Valens. So why is not operating this way here? Is there any instance that you know of where KAQWS is followed, as it is in Mk 1:2,   by GEGRAPTAI + quotation/citation,  where KAQWS does not operate this way?





      We do not have a way of expressing completed action in the past that was passive in English, therefore the closest way to convey the meaning is to indicate that that the action is in a completed state by the use of stands written. Meaning that the witting has long been in a stage of completeness and that the text did not write itself, but was the recepient of the anction of writing by an agent. I am suprised that you dont know this about the perfect passive indicative.  Just to say it is written does not make clear that the writing is finished. Some people might think that Isaiah was still alive and writing or that this was a different Isaiah the prophet. As silly as it may sound it is exactly why the Greeks made use of the perfect passive indicative. Stands written clearly idicates that It was the recipient of completed action in the past. About adding "just to as" The perfect tense in Greek also carries the sense of integrity. what was done was just as it needed to be done, just as instructed, just as was customary and so on. My, I feel as though I am teaching a Greek class here. Every time you challenge my translation without speaking to me first you cause me to have to explain all of this. If you really cared it would be different.

      Below I have listed the occcurances of Kathws Kata - hws in Mark, note it is never used to intoduce a quotation.

      Now I am sure you will mince words with me as you have always done. You are much more intersted in being right than learning anything.

      RSV Mar 4:33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as kathws they were able to hear it;

      RSV Mar 9:13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as kathws it is written of him."

      RSV Mar 11:6 And they told them what (kathws just as would be a better translation here) Jesus had said; and they let them go. The idea is that they  repeated Jesus' exact words

      RSV Mar 14:16 And the disciples set out and went to the city, and found it as kathws again I prefer just as he had told them; and they prepared the passover.

      RSV Mar 15:8 And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as kathws he was wont to do for them.

      RSV Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as kathws she told you."

      these are all of the uses of Kathws in Mark you must be referring hws which is from a different matter all together. The do not have the prepositon Kata combined with hws.








    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... My, I feel as though I am teaching a Greek class here. Every time you challenge my translation without speaking to me first you cause me to have to explain
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 17, 2004
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        Rick Richmond wrote (in response to Jeffrey Gibson):

        -------------------------------------------------------
        My, I feel as though I am teaching a Greek class here.
        Every time you challenge my translation without
        speaking to me first you cause me to have to explain
        all of this. If you really cared it would be
        different.

        ...

        Now I am sure you will mince words with me as you have
        always done. You are much more intersted in being
        right than learning anything.
        -------------------------------------------------------

        I'm sure that all of us on this list will be happy to
        learn more Greek, but none of will appreciate being
        condescended to if we raise questions.

        From your remarks, I gather that you have had previous
        disagreements with Jeffrey Gibson. Please consider
        settling these differences elsewhere than on this
        listserve.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Seo-Dong 125-2
        Shin-Dong-A, Apt. 102-709
        447-710 Kyunggido, Osan-City
        South Korea

        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        Apologies to anyone who receives this twice. ... I m not sure what to make of your claim about my caring, etc., or that I should have spoken to you first
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 17, 2004
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          Apologies to anyone who receives this twice.

          RickR370@... wrote:

          My, I feel as though I am teaching a Greek class here. Every time you challenge my translation without speaking to me first you cause me to have to explain all of this. If you really cared it would be different.
          I'm not sure what to make of your claim about my caring, etc.,  or that I should have "spoken to you first" before challenging your translation publicly.  You posted to a discussion list,  and therefore invited public responses.
          Below I have listed the occcurances of Kathws Kata - hws in Mark, note it is never used to intoduce a quotation.

          Now I am sure you will mince words with me as you have always done. You are much more intersted in being right than learning anything.

          RSV Mar 4:33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as kathws they were able to hear it;

          RSV Mar 9:13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as kathws it is written of him."

          RSV Mar 11:6 And they told them what (kathws just as would be a better translation here) Jesus had said; and they let them go. The idea is that they  repeated Jesus' exact words

          RSV Mar 14:16 And the disciples set out and went to the city, and found it as kathws again I prefer just as he had told them; and they prepared the passover.

          RSV Mar 15:8 And the crowd came up and began to ask Pilate to do as kathws he was wont to do for them.

          RSV Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as kathws she told you."

          these are all of the uses of Kathws in Mark you must be referring hws which is from a different matter all together. The do not have the prepositon Kata combined with hws.
           

          At the risk of seeming to wish (again?) to "mince words" with you,  and/or of being charged again with  wishing more to be right than to learn, let me note that  you missed Mk.14:21

          And in any case, none of this really answers my question about why, given how  KAQWS + GEGRAPTAI  + citation (or its Hebrew counterpart) was used in as a citation formula in all other instances of its use elsewhere in the NT, other contemporaneous Greek literature, both biblical and secular, and in the DSS and Rabbinic literature, we should expect it to have been used differently by Mark when he employs the construction a Mk. 1:2.

          Nor does it -- or anything you wrote which I snipped -- answer my question of whether you've ever found an instance in Koine of KAQWS + GEGRAPTAI + citation that did not function as a citation formula.

          I'd be grateful if you'd give me your answers to these questions. How am I to learn if you don't answer what I asked?

          JG
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...
           

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