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Re: [Synoptic-L] Gospel archetypes (was: Added a page to my site, an alternative to the3SH)

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  • dgentil@sears.com
    Ron Price writes: If an archetype was sufficiently cohesive, then any change to it by adding or deleting a substantial amount of text would ruin that cohesion.
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 4, 2004
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      Ron Price writes:
      If an archetype was sufficiently cohesive, then any change to it by adding
      or deleting a
      substantial amount of text would ruin that cohesion.

      Dave:
      That seems possible, but I would also worry about seeing patterns of our
      own creation, not in the original. Do you have any examples that we could
      discuss here?

      Many of the pericope you identify as originating in Matthew seem to
      reinforce the message that the Jews had rejected their messiah, and that
      Christianity with its outreach to Gentiles was the true continuation of the
      Jewish religion.

      If we could argue that the original autograph of Luke also supported that
      position, that would seem to favor Luke's direct use of Matthew. Luke makes
      Herod more responsible for both the death of John and Jesus. Are there
      other examples along the same lines?

      It seems to me, that short of digging up a previously unknown edition of
      Luke, the question is not answerable with any real certainty.


      David Gentile,
      M.S. Physics, M.S. Finance
      Hoffman Estates, IL





      Ron Price
      <ron.price@virgin To: Synoptic-L elist <Synoptic-L@...>
      .net> cc:
      Sent by: Subject: [Synoptic-L] Gospel archetypes (was: Added a page
      owner-synoptic-l@ to my site, an alternative to the3SH)
      bham.ac.uk


      03/04/2004 05:40
      AM






      Mark Matson wrote:

      > ..... how can you be sure what is "Luke" and what is "not"
      > outside of the normal text critical procedure?

      Dave Gentile wrote:

      > I suppose if the text was needed to form a cohesive whole with other
      parts
      > of Luke, that would be an argument for its original inclusion in Luke.

      Dave and Mark,

      This last comment is along the right lines. If an archetype was
      sufficiently cohesive, then any change to it by adding or deleting a
      substantial amount of text would ruin that cohesion. There are thus two
      issues. Were the original documents very cohesive? In what ways would that
      cohesion be manifest?

      A long and detailed study of the NT documents and their origins has
      convinced me that the archetypes were much more cohesive than anyone had
      realized. Probably the only widely recognized original structural features
      are the five-fold division of Matthew and the replies to questions in 1
      Corinthians, but these are just the tips of icebergs. Examples of very high
      cohesion in the reconstructions of original documents (relating to the
      early
      sayings source and the early editions of the gospel of John) can be found
      on
      my Web site.

      The cohesion of the major NT documents is not just in logical structure,
      but also in physical structure. For the way Paul wrote his letters, and the
      pioneering codex format used by Mark and copied by several other NT
      authors,
      involved self-imposed constraints relating to page size which have allowed
      me to deduce, for instance, that Luke was produced in two editions, with
      the
      'Western non-interpolations' substantially absent from both archetypes.

      Ron Price

      Derbyshire, UK

      Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm






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    • Ron Price
      ... Dave, It s certainly a worry, and great care has to be taken to avoid falling into that trap. ... The only case for which I ve made the analysis available
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 4, 2004
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        Dave Gentile wrote:

        > .....I would also worry about seeing patterns of our
        > own creation, not in the original.

        Dave,

        It's certainly a worry, and great care has to be taken to avoid falling
        into that trap.

        > Do you have any examples that we could discuss here?

        The only case for which I've made the analysis available so far is that of
        John's gospel (see my Web site). This document has had a more complex
        history than any other in the NT and I've had to posit three editions.

        I'd be happy to discuss this case, though it would have to be off-list as
        it's not appropriate for Synoptic-L.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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      • Ron Price
        ... Mark, In broad terms the procedure does not involve detecting the archetype directly, but positing a structure and a page model for the archetype, then
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 4, 2004
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          Mark Matson wrote:

          > Can you give us some example, for instance, of a place where you see
          > modification from the "original" Lukan material -- or to use your terms,
          > where you detect the "archetype" behind our Lukan text? And perhaps
          > some clues as to how you have evaluated that particular text.

          Mark,

          In broad terms the procedure does not involve detecting the archetype
          directly, but positing a structure and a page model for the archetype, then
          finding out how closely the structure fits the model using the UBS text. If
          there is no fit, or if the fit is not good enough, are there any plausible
          changes to the text which would give a better fit? In the case of Luke, the
          removal of the 'Western non-interpolations' was quite plausible (c.f. e.g.
          NEB, REB, and D.C.Parker, _The living text of the Gospels_, 1997, p.148ff.)
          and transformed a non-existent fit into quite a good fit with the chosen
          structure and model.

          The only archetype investigation I have made available so far is that of
          John's gospel. So if you want to see how the technique works, have a look at
          the relevant part of my Web site. Judge for yourself whether the page size
          patterns portrayed help to reveal the history of that document's
          composition, or whether they are sheer imagination. However you will need to
          bear in mind that the analysis of John is atypical insofar as it tackles the
          problem of text displacements. I am not suggesting that there were any text
          displacements in the other gospels. But as in John it's possible in the
          other gospels to find a logical structure which matches a page model using a
          text not too far from the UBS text.

          Ron Price

          Derbyshire, UK

          Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



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        • David Gentile
          Ron, O.K. let s assume that for Luke we can reconstruct a document that fits nicely into page-sized divisions. How do we know that it represents the original
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 5, 2004
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            Ron,
            O.K. let's assume that for Luke we can reconstruct a document that fits
            nicely into page-sized divisions. How do we know that it represents the
            original Luke?

            Another scenario would be that the original of Luke is written on a scroll.
            It gets copied into a codex, with logical divisions. Now each page starts
            with a new topic, but the text may not always fill the page. That blank spot
            at the bottom of the page would seem to be an open invitation <your text
            here>. The result would be a version of Luke that has logical page-sized
            divisions.

            That might be interesting to investigate. - If the Matthian sections always
            appear at what appears to be the bottom of a page sized section, that might
            argue for their late inclusion.


            Dave Gentile
            Riverside, Illinois
            M.S. Physics
            M.S. Finance

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ron Price" <ron.price@...>
            In the case of Luke, the
            > removal of the 'Western non-interpolations' was quite plausible (c.f. e.g.
            > NEB, REB, and D.C.Parker, _The living text of the Gospels_, 1997,
            p.148ff.)
            > and transformed a non-existent fit into quite a good fit with the chosen
            > structure and model.
            >



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          • Ron Price
            ... Dave, If the detailed structure which matches the page boundaries is sufficiently convincing (better than anything yet published?!), and the numerical
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 5, 2004
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              Dave Gentile wrote:

              > Ron,
              > O.K. let's assume that for Luke we can reconstruct a document that fits
              > nicely into page-sized divisions. How do we know that it represents the
              > original Luke?

              Dave,

              If the detailed structure which matches the page boundaries is
              sufficiently convincing (better than anything yet published?!), and the
              numerical match is sufficiently good, then we can be pretty sure that it
              isn't either a coincidence or a modern artificial construct.

              > Another scenario would be that the original of Luke is written on a scroll.
              > It gets copied into a codex, with logical divisions. Now each page starts
              > with a new topic, but the text may not always fill the page. That blank spot
              > at the bottom of the page would seem to be an open invitation <your text
              > here>. The result would be a version of Luke that has logical page-sized
              > divisions.

              Perhaps. But I don't see a strong enough motive. Why bother to adjust each
              section, when it would be much easier, if he thought it necessary, to add a
              filler at the end?

              If he did go to this trouble, the interpolator would have to do a very
              good job in (a) simulating the original author's style and interests and (b)
              not allowing the extra text to interfere with the structure if the original
              was highly structured. Any half page insertion by a stranger is likely to be
              repetitive, idiosyncratic, or a mismatch with the section's theme. Besides,
              your scenario would involve interpolations at the majority of section
              boundaries, so the resulting text is even more likely to end up in a mess.

              Ron Price

              Derbyshire, UK

              Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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            • dgentil@sears.com
              Ron, What I mean is - suppose we have a version of Luke in front of us (the original) with some blank bits at the bottom of some pages. If we are interested in
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 5, 2004
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                Ron,
                What I mean is - suppose we have a version of Luke in front of us
                (the original) with some blank bits at the bottom of some pages. If we are
                interested in adding some Matthian material to promote our own view, it
                seems quite natural to just find a bit of empty space that is approximately
                the right size for what we want to add, and then place it there.

                Ron: the interpolator would have to do a very
                good job in (a) simulating the original author's style and interests

                Dave: Not in this case. The interpolator is adding something from Matthew
                to Luke. The result is a section of Luke that has the Matthian style we
                see.

                Ron: (b)
                not allowing the extra text to interfere with the structure if the original
                was highly structured.

                Dave: If we are just talking about page sized structure, then the
                interpolator is actually helping to create that. If there is a larger
                thematic structure, the added text could interfere with that, but then
                again, the interpolator would not want to place the added text somewhere it
                very clearly did not fit thematically.


                Dave Gentile
                M.S. Physics, M.S. Finance
                Hoffman Estates, IL







                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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              • Ron Price
                ... Dave, In my opinion this is a wholly unrealistic scenario. If this version is supposed to be the archetype, then the author/scribe would have been crazy to
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 6, 2004
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                  Dave Gentile wrote:

                  > What I mean is - suppose we have a version of Luke in front of us
                  > (the original) with some blank bits at the bottom of some pages.

                  Dave,

                  In my opinion this is a wholly unrealistic scenario. If this version is
                  supposed to be the archetype, then the author/scribe would have been crazy
                  to leave such an open invitation to interpolation. If it is supposed to be a
                  copy of the archetype with newly introduced blank bits, then as I indicated
                  in my last posting, I can't see a plausible motivation for producing the
                  copy in this peculiar format.

                  Ron Price

                  Derbyshire, UK

                  Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm



                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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                • David Gentile
                  ... a ... indicated ... Why produce it in that format? The scribe may have wanted the pages to be logical divisions. That is, he wanted each page to start at
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 6, 2004
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                    >
                    > In my opinion this is a wholly unrealistic scenario. If this version is
                    > supposed to be the archetype, then the author/scribe would have been crazy
                    > to leave such an open invitation to interpolation. If it is supposed to be
                    a
                    > copy of the archetype with newly introduced blank bits, then as I
                    indicated
                    > in my last posting, I can't see a plausible motivation for producing the
                    > copy in this peculiar format.
                    >
                    > Ron Price
                    >

                    Why produce it in that format? The scribe may have wanted the pages to be
                    logical divisions. That is, he wanted each page to start at the beginning of
                    a topic and not somewhere in the middle of a topic. I suppose, given the
                    relatively high cost of the material, this would not have been done often,
                    but it still strikes me as something that quite possibly could have been
                    done.


                    Dave Gentile
                    Riverside, Illinois
                    M.S. Physics
                    M.S. Finance


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