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Re: [Synoptic-L] Added a page to my site, an alternative to the 3SH

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  • Ron Price
    ... Stuart, I tried to make clear that I was referring to substantial changes to the text (which Dave had admitted were involved in his suggestion), and your
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 3, 2004
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      Stuart Waugh wrote:

      > You cannot fail the idea that quickly. I would advise you to examine the
      > textual situation of Ephesians vis-?-vis its relationship to Romans Western
      > text as one example. Specifically the correct reading toi~v ou}sin (supported
      > by Marcion, P46, #1488;*, B*, 1739, Origen) of Ephesians 1:1 and its
      > relationship to Romans 1:7 and 1:15 as witnessed by ms G. Clabeaux lays out
      > this case ? suggested to him by Helmut Koester ? very well (see pp 94-99: 'A
      > Lost Edition of the Letters of Paul: A Reassessment of the Text of the Pauline
      > Corpus Attested by Marcion').

      Stuart,

      I tried to make clear that I was referring to substantial changes to the
      text (which Dave had admitted were involved in his suggestion), and your
      example doesn't appear to be in that category.

      > I think one stands on infirm ground when they suggest that significant textual
      > variance necessarily starts after redaction.

      This was not my claim, but rather that I have devised techniques which
      enable me to identify the limited cases where substantial redaction has
      occurred prior to the earliest *known* ('extant' was the word I used)
      textual variants.

      Ron Price

      Derbyshire, UK

      Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


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    • dgentil@sears.com
      Ron writes: But, as I tried to indicate in my previous posting, I can identify fairly closely what the author of Luke wrote, and can therefore rule out any
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 3, 2004
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        Ron writes:

        But, as I tried to indicate in my previous posting, I can identify fairly
        closely what the author of Luke wrote, and can therefore rule out any
        "early
        substantial change(s)" of the sort you mention.

        Dave:

        How? If a bit of text in Luke is identical to the text of Matthew, and is
        Matthian in style, then how can we say if the original author of Luke
        brought in that text from Matthew, or a later copyist brought in that text
        from Matthew? We would not be able to say that it is in the style of Luke,
        because we're already arguing it is in the style of Matthew. The orignal
        text of sQ could have been the what you believe it was under either
        hypothesis. So that does not seem of much help here either.

        I suppose if the text was needed to form a cohesive whole with other parts
        of Luke, that would be an argument for its original inclusion in Luke. Is
        there another argument I'm missing?


        David Gentile
        M.S. Physics, M.S. Finance
        Hoffman Estates, IL





        Ron Price
        <ron.price@virgin To: Synoptic-L elist <Synoptic-L@...>
        .net> cc:
        Sent by: Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Added a page to my site, an
        owner-synoptic-l@ alternative to the 3SH
        bham.ac.uk


        03/03/2004 03:13
        PM






        Dave Gentile wrote:

        > .....the fact that we don't have those
        > hypothetical early versions of Luke certainly is an argument against the
        > idea. I think we would have to speculate that "a copy of record"
        somewhere
        > was made to look more like Matthew, and that all existing copies descend
        > from that copy. In addition to an early substantial change, there may
        have
        > been other minor changes in the same direction. Earlier versions of Luke
        > may not have been widely distributed, and in fact might have been
        actively
        > destroyed by proto-orthodox believers, if the original Luke contained
        > material that did not sit well with their view.

        Dave,

        But, as I tried to indicate in my previous posting, I can identify fairly
        closely what the author of Luke wrote, and can therefore rule out any
        "early
        substantial change(s)" of the sort you mention.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...






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      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... These are all very good points and importantly corrective of naive assumptions about the stability of the text, but I think the question is, how do we go
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 4, 2004
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          At 09:39 AM 3/3/04 -0800, Stuart Waugh wrote:
          >I think one stands on infirm ground when they suggest that significant
          >textual variance necessarily starts after redaction. The evidence is far
          >from clear-cut, and it seems to me more likely that redaction and textual
          >variance came about early, often overlapping each other. The same forces
          >that put an end to wild textual variance also put the brakes on redaction
          >(although they did continue some to support orthodoxy). I suggest instead
          >that they co-existed and grew up together. The separation of a redaction
          >period from a textual reproduction (thus variance) and transmission period
          >is a false division. Remember also no Codex of significant size (more than
          >some scraps) is extant to us from prior to the 3rd century. Yet textual
          >theories trace many of the text types back into at least the early 2nd
          >century because of Patristic readings.

          These are all very good points and importantly corrective of
          naive assumptions about the stability of the text, but I think
          the question is, how do we go forward from here?

          There have been attempts to identify which text-type of Mark
          that Matt and Luke (are supposed to have) used, but I don't
          think much has come out that work. Assuming Markan priority,
          for the sake of an example and without loss of generality, it
          is true that--unless Matthew and Luke were using an unmutilated
          autograph of Mark--their exemplars of Mark differed in some
          way from Mark's autograph. A similar idea has been suggested
          for Q, in Qmt and Qlk, versions. My understanding of all this
          work is that specific solutions have commanded little assent.

          The problem isn't so much that people are unaware of the problem;
          it's that they are unaware of the solution, or more precisely
          how to find a generally agreeable solution. How can we identify
          pre-redactional textual variation in the synoptic problem? How
          do we distinguish this from post-redactional textual variation?

          I suppose these questions might be somewhat answerable if we
          had confidence in both the text and the synoptic relationship,
          but the issue often crops up, as it did here, when comparing
          two competing synoptic theories. Usually, in this context,
          appeals to textual variation are proposed to avoid some problem
          in one's own source theory, so now we're faced with the additional
          issue of having to balance this against a source theory may not
          need to rely on such textual variation to explain the evidence.

          Unless one has a decent method for sorting out which variant
          belongs to which level of redaction or scribal transmission, I
          think that the UBS text will continue to stand as the best
          supported approximation of the original texts. It's always
          possible that post-redactional textual variation could have
          influenced the text of the synoptic gospels, so to that extent
          I agree with David Gentile. However, much of this textual
          variation has already factored into the text of the gospel
          reconstructed by UBS, so I think that the person proposing a
          different text used by the synoptic evangelists has the onus
          of producing arguments and evidence independent of one's source
          theory for each departure from the UBS text. To that extent
          I'm on Price's side.

          Use of the UBS text brings up another problem: to what extent
          is Markan Priority or even the full Two-Source Theory was used
          as a premise in establishing the text? Dungan has pointed out
          before that the UBS may be biased in favor a particular solution.
          I don't think this question has been answered satifactorially yet;
          based on my own, limited investigations I can only say that other
          biases of the UBS committee seem to play a much stronger role.

          Stephen Carlson
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Weblog: http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/hypotyposeis/blogger.html
          "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

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