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[Synoptic-L] Re: Fw:healing stories and human rights

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 2/27/2004 3:25:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, k.hanhart@net.hcc.nl writes:
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 27, 2004
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      In a message dated 2/27/2004 3:25:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, k.hanhart@... writes:

      << Leonard Maluflen challenged me off-list to explain why I believed the feeding of the 4000 had the Gentiles in view.>>

      I never did. Rather, on-list, I challenged you to explain what you thought of the feeding of the 4000 in Matt, and why.


      << In an earlier contribution I had forwarded my reasons, as already put forward by Nineham and van Goudoever and others. In biblical numerology the number 4 represents the four points of the compass, hence stands for the world ec. etc. The feeding takes place in the Decapolis. The number 7 in 7 baskets refers to the seven nations surrounding Israel (cf. Deut 7,l; Acts 13,19) >>

      I am aware of all these reasons, and more, usually given in Markan commentaries. My question to you, again, was what you thought about the story in Matt. Apparently you don't think much about the story in Matt, or about anything else in Matthew, for that matter.

      << I believed he [Leonard] wanted me to answer off-list as well. Apparently this was not the case, since he already set forth his views on Synoptic-L.>>

      Again, this is not what happened at all. You sent me, off-list, what you thought was a response to my challenge (what you have now posted to the list). You asked whether I minded if you posted what you sent me to the list. I responded that of course I didn't mind if you posted it to the list (as you have now done), but that I did not think your response really addressed my question on the feeding story in Matt.

      Leonard Maluf
      Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
      Weston, MA



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    • Karel Hanhart
      ... feeding of the 4000 had the Gentiles in view. ... of the feeding of the 4000 in Matt, and why. ... My sincere apologies, Leonard. You are quite right.
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 29, 2004
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        > In a message dated 2/27/2004 3:25:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        k.hanhart@... writes:
        >
        > << Leonard Maluflen challenged me off-list to explain why I believed the
        feeding of the 4000 had the Gentiles in view.>>

        Leonard:
        > I never did. Rather, on-list, I challenged you to explain what you thought
        of the feeding of the 4000 in Matt, and why.
        >

        My sincere apologies, Leonard. You are quite right. You did not send the
        message off list. It is an awkward error on my part after reading your note
        of Fb 25 at 12,59. I somehow in haste took this direct challenge to be an
        off list
        remark. So I set out to approach in outline the problem why Luke's travel
        account, deviating from the Markan order, begins precisely with Mark's
        feeding of the five thousand, which he already told in Lk 4,16-30 and thus
        why he omitted the story of the feeding of the four thousand altogether.

        I wrote:
        This Lukan effort offers, I believe, a reasonable explanation why he
        deviated from Mark's order, precisely at the point where "Jesus journeying
        inside and outside of Galilee" begins (Mark 6,1 - 9,,50 - W.G.Kuemmel,
        Introduction p. 61).
        My point is that Luke knew quite well that the feeding of the four thousand
        in Mark and in Matthew referred to the mission to the nations of the world.
        Luke omitted this second multiplication story, because he had planned to
        write the Acts of the Apostles, in which he would describe Paul's missionary
        journeys to the Gentiles.

        Let me continue, however, with the question at hand. I began to write:

        In an earlier contribution I had forwarded my reasons based on Hebrew
        numerology, as already put forward by Nineham and van Goudoever and others.
        In biblical numerology the number 4 represents the four points of the
        compass, hence stands for the world ec. etc. The feeding takes place in the
        Decapolis. The number 7 in 7 baskets refers to the seven nations surrounding
        Israel (cf. Deut 7,l; Acts 13,19).

        "Leonard's answer
        > I am aware of all these reasons, and more, usually given in Markan
        commentaries.

        Karel's comment:

        Leonard's answer to Carlson surprised me. For like myself Carlson also
        called attention to Biblical numerology: And in reply Leonard wrote:
        > "This is interesting. I hadn't noticed before how the numbers 12 and 7 are
        emphasized in Mk 8:19-20 in a way that > they are not in the parallel text
        of Matthew...

        Carlson had written:
        Given the numeric details that are emphasized (the first had 12 baskets
        left over, and the second had 7), which are explicitly invoked in Jesus's
        questions to the disciples, I feel that some kind of symbolism is going on,
        and Mark develops that symbolism deftly along the lines of a table
        fellowship that is inclusive of both Jews (12) and Gentiles (7), cf. esp.
        the passage with the Syro-Phoenician woman.

        To summarize: At the first feeding five loaves refer to the five Books of
        Moses and the 12 baskets to the twelve tribes of Israel. I had referred to
        the numerical significance of the numbers 4 (the world) and the 7 baskets
        (the Gentile nations) in Mark 8 par. Consequently, the first feeding had the
        people of Israel in view and the second feeding the nations of the world.
        Luke omitted the latter, because he planned to deal with the mission to the
        nations in his Acts.

        The strength of Leonard's position is, of course, Mt 10,6: But go rather to
        the lost sheep of the house of Israel (cf.15,24). Thus the feedings of the
        4000 could not possible refer to the Gentiles. However, this riddle forms
        one of the reasons that this text IMHO must have been part of the (now
        lost) pre-70 gospel, a gospel that breathed the spirit of 'Maranatha'. Mark
        radically revised it with a post-70 corrected passion story now designed to
        account for the delay of the parousia. Mark had taken the consequence of
        Paul's musterion of Rom 11,25 (cf Mk 4,10-12). The last two passion
        predictions he composed for his new theme to prepare the readers that the
        "handing over" to "the nations" MUST take place (Mk 10,33.34) with the
        negative implication of suffering (cross, temple destruction) and the
        positive fruitfuil aspect of victory for the Son (new exile so that the
        Gospel be preached to all nations).
        In spite of the saying Mt 10,6 (hence part of the pre-70 gospel) Matthew
        accepted the new Markan version with the new theodicy as reflected in the
        post-70 passion story. He also accepted the Markan addition of the feeding
        of the 4000. However, he showed a kind of ambivalence, probably for the sake
        of more conservative readers among his wider audience. Only in the great
        commission, hence as the risen Master, Jesus gives his disciples the
        explicit command to make disciples of all nations (28,19).

        cordially Karel.


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      • Maluflen@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/29/2004 2:23:02 PM Central Standard Time, ... I had a problem with the above, reading it last night, but chalked it up to a tired brain.
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 1, 2004
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          In a message dated 2/29/2004 2:23:02 PM Central Standard Time, k.hanhart@... writes:

          So I set out to approach in outline the problem why Luke's travel
          account, deviating from the Markan order, begins precisely with Mark's
          feeding of the five thousand, which he already told in Lk 4,16-30 and thus
          why he omitted the story of the feeding of the four thousand altogether.


          I had a problem with the above, reading it last night, but chalked it up to a tired brain. But it doesn't make much more sense to me this morning. Could you explain a bit what you are trying to say here? Thanks!

          Leonard Maluf
          Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
          Weston, MA
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