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Re: [Synoptic-L] un livre nouveau

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  • Jim West
    ... no- but if it is as brilliant as his book on christian origins then its a must read. (now i have to track it down on amazon.fr and get it.... you guys
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 12, 2003
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      At 05:46 PM 3/12/03 -0500, you wrote:
      >Since everything French is so popular these days, I wondered has anyone seen
      >a book by Etienne Nodet (Cerf: Paris 2002), entitled "Le Fils de Dieu. Procès
      >de Jésus et Evangiles", supporting an equally popular Synoptic source theory?
      >I would be most interested to hear more about the book if anyone has read it.

      no- but if it is as brilliant as his book on christian origins then its a
      must read.

      (now i have to track it down on amazon.fr and get it.... you guys with your
      book notices will be my financial ruin one day.) ;-)

      best

      jim

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      Jim West, ThD

      Biblical Studies Resources
      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest


      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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    • John Lupia
      P. Étienne Nodet, O.P., il est sur le faculté de École biblique et archéologique française de Jérusalem depuis 1977. Nodet entreprend recherche
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 12, 2003
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        P. �tienne Nodet, O.P., il est sur le facult� de �cole
        biblique et arch�ologique fran�aise de J�rusalem
        depuis 1977.

        Nodet entreprend recherche historique examinant
        nouveau le probl�me synoptique dans de contexte
        pr�-Markan. Il �tudie le titre: le fils de Dieu" en
        lieu de Qumran et des �critures de non-Chr�tien sur
        J�sus et son post�rit� o� il conclut la possibilit�
        que les evangiles sont le r�sultat d'un
        christianization de la biographie de J�sus.

        Nodet undertakes an historical investigation
        re-examining the Synoptic Problem in a pre- Markan
        context, (he�s a 2 Source Theorist) and to study the
        title �Son of God" in lieu of Qumran and the
        non-Christian writings on Jesus and his posterity
        where he concludes/considers the possibility that the
        Gospels are the result of a Christianization of the
        biography of Jesus.

        cordialement,
        Jean


        =====
        John N. Lupia, III
        31 Norwich Drive
        Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
        Phone: (732) 341-8689
        Email: jlupia2@...
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      • Maluflen@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/12/2003 5:20:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... Are you sure of this, John? I heard from a French scholar and theologian whom I am inclined
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 12, 2003
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          In a message dated 3/12/2003 5:20:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, jlupia2@... writes:


          Nodet undertakes an historical investigation
          re-examining the Synoptic Problem in a pre- Markan
          context, (he’s a 2 Source Theorist) and to study the
          title “Son of God" in lieu of Qumran and the
          non-Christian writings on Jesus and his posterity
          where he concludes/considers the possibility that the
          Gospels are the result of a Christianization of the
          biography of Jesus.


          Are you sure of this, John? I heard from a French scholar and theologian whom I am inclined to trust that Nodet endorses the Griesbach hypothesis in this book. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow at the Weston library. Perhaps my scholar friend read too fast? Perhaps Jim West knows the answer since he has read his earlier book, which I believe is available in English from Liturgical Press.

          Dr. Leonard Maluf
          Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
          617-926-2387
        • Emmanuel Fritsch
          ... See below the french original of the abstract, where 2 source theory is not quoted as a position of Nodet, but as a general background of synoptic
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 13, 2003
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            Leonard asked :
            > Nodet undertakes an historical investigation
            > re-examining the Synoptic Problem in a pre- Markan
            > context, (heâ??s a 2 Source Theorist) and to study the
            > title â??Son of God" in lieu of Qumran and the
            > non-Christian writings on Jesus and his posterity
            > where he concludes/considers the possibility that the
            > Gospels are the result of a Christianization of the
            > biography of Jesus.
            >
            > Are you sure of this, John? I heard from a French scholar and
            > theologian whom I am inclined to trust that Nodet endorses the
            > Griesbach hypothesis in this book. I'll see if I can find it
            > tomorrow at the Weston library. Perhaps my scholar friend read
            > too fast? Perhaps Jim West knows the answer since he has read
            > his earlier book, which I believe is available in English from
            > Liturgical Press.


            See below the french original of the abstract, where 2 source
            theory is not quoted as a position of Nodet, but as a general
            background of synoptic research, that Nodet aims to challenge.
            English version looks as a bad translation. John, did you find
            it on the net ?

            About the earlier book : According all probabilities, Leonard, you
            and Jim West were speaking about the book writen in collaboration
            with J. Taylor, whose translation in effect has been published by
            Liturgical Press. The EBAF (Ecole Biblique) bibliography gives
            publishers for all english translations of his books (link below).


            > Étienne Nodet se livre à une enquête historique qui l'amène
            > à réexaminer la question synoptique (antériorité de l'évangile
            > de Marc, théorie des deux sources) et à étudier le titre de
            > « fils de Dieu ». Qumrân et les écrits non chrétiens sur Jésus
            > et sa postérité sont instructifs : ils permettent de voir que
            > les évangiles sont le résultat d'une christianisation de la
            > biographie de Jésus.

            http://www.editionsducerf.fr/html/fiche/fichelivre.asp?N_LIV_CERF=5636

            other pages :
            http://ebaf.op.org/wsw/fr/nodet.html
            http://www.editionsducerf.fr/html/fiche/ficheauteur.asp?n_aut=1168
            http://www.editionsducerf.fr/html/fiche/fichelivre.asp?n_liv_cerf=1361
            http://www.editionsducerf.fr/html/fiche/fichelivre.asp?n_liv_cerf=594

            a+
            manu

            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • John Lupia
            Emmanuel Fritsch : See below the french original of the abstract, where 2 source theory is not quoted as a position of Nodet, but as a general background of
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 13, 2003
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              Emmanuel Fritsch :
              See below the french original of the abstract, where 2
              source theory is not quoted as a position of Nodet,
              but as a general background of synoptic research, that
              Nodet aims to challenge. English version looks as a
              bad translation. John, did you find it on the net ?

              My Dear Emmanuel:
              I realize you may be unaware of the implications of
              what you say here in English, so I will clarify this
              for you and my dear Leonard. I have been in
              discussion with Fr. Nodet about his thesis since I
              have a great passion for the �cole biblique et
              arch�ologique fran�aise de J�rusalem ever since their
              publication of the Jerusalem Bible, a magnificent
              undertaking. The �cole biblique is a magnificent
              biblical academy, and the Dominican priests are among
              the finest scholars on earth. So, let me share with
              you what our dear Fr. Nodet has told me. Below is a
              direct copy of a private correspondence he sent me
              regarding his particular view, which you will note is
              highly colored, shaped and formed by Markan priority.
              His Griesbachian position is murky as is his Two
              Source position. It is as if he subscribes to both and
              is ambivalent as you will see reading his own
              testimony about his thinking.

              Voici une noted de P. Nodet:

              Here is a short outline of my method.

              The main point is that (1) the divinization of Jesus
              is NOT a Greek development and (2) on the contrary the
              first Christians wanted to stress that he was a real
              man, so that the passion was a real event.

              The way or reasoning is as follows:

              1-A study of the synoptic narrative of the passion
              shows that Mk mixes up the Jewish institutions more
              than the others, and more generally that looks farther
              than the 3 others from Jewish realities.

              2-Hence a query about the 2-source theory; the
              conclusion (quite obvious, I think...) is that it
              wants a serious proof.

              3-John is the closest to historical facts and Jewish
              realities (including the divinization of Jesus, hence
              a trip through Josephus, Qumran, etc. as against
              rabbinic tradition)

              4-Thus, the synoptic Narrative of the passion is a
              literary device, which includes a Christianization of
              Passover, which has some consequences upon the last
              supper (the unleavened bread of the eucharist was
              introduced centuries later...)

              NB I rely heavily upon the Slavonic version of
              Josephus' war, of which an English translation has
              just been published by Brill.

              As for you question, I do think that Griesbach is
              better than the two-source, though it is far from
              solving everything. The very fact that Mk has only a
              few teachings of Jesus indicates IMHO that it is more
              Christian! (For Christianity - contrary to any Jesus
              movement - never came from Jesus' teachings).

              So far. Sincerely,

              --


              Etienne Nodet, op, Ecole Biblique, POB 19053,
              Jerusalem Israel
              Tel +972 2 6264468 (ext. 242), fax
              ...6282567
              http://ebaf.op.org




              With very warm regards,
              John


              =====
              John N. Lupia, III
              31 Norwich Drive
              Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
              Phone: (732) 341-8689
              Email: jlupia2@...
              Editor, Roman Catholic News
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News

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            • Emmanuel Fritsch
              ... Am sorry, I do not understand what is bad in my comment. Berhabs should I have said a general background of synoptic research, that Nodet may challenge,
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 13, 2003
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                John Lupia a écrit :
                >
                > Emmanuel Fritsch :
                > See below the french original of the abstract, where 2
                > source theory is not quoted as a position of Nodet,
                > but as a general background of synoptic research, that
                > Nodet aims to challenge. English version looks as a
                > bad translation. John, did you find it on the net ?
                >
                > My Dear Emmanuel:
                > I realize you may be unaware of the implications of
                > what you say here in English, so I will clarify this
                > for you and my dear Leonard.

                Am sorry, I do not understand what is bad in my comment.
                Berhabs should I have said "a general background of synoptic
                research, that Nodet may challenge, or not".

                But no matter.

                Am happy to see we share a same admiration for EBAF,
                its production and its scholars.

                a+
                manu

                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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