Re: [Synoptic-L] GTh 19b and the Synoptics
- --- "John C. Poirier" <poirier@...> wrote:
> John,Hi John:
> There's a lot in your message that I don't
> First, are you saying that the author of GTh 19b
> thinks that Jesus'
> words are energized by daimons/demons?
No. The author of GTh is an Epicuran who did not
believe in spirits, but rather, borrows the idea in
order to poke jest at it. The inuendo of Jesus being
possessed by Beelzebub was to play into the hands of
those who did believe in spirits so that they could
argue Jesus was possessed by him.
> Second, what is the exegetical basis for supposingThe basis of the exegesis on GTh is on the Jewish
> that the verse is
> about daimons/demons? Is it just because the idea
> of animated stones is
assimilation of the concept of diamon into their
theology, something well attested to and written
about. See, for example, John L. McKenzie, SJ,
"Demons, Demonolgy" 3. ff in Dictionary of the Bible
(NY, London, 1965):193-4.
> Third, since the Jewish and Christian version ofNo, since they were Epicurean Saddukaioi = Tzaddikim =
> this platonic gesture
> employed angels (as mediators of prayers and
> prophecy) rather than the
> daimons of Plato, wouldn't it make sense to suppose
> that GThomas would
> think in these terms as well?
�the upright or righteous men� the chief Kohanim in
the Jerusalem Temple.
The second oracle of Habakkuk (c. 597 BC) A TZADDIK
shall live by his faith, (Habakkuk 2:4). Tzaddik [also
spelled tsaddik or tsaddiq] is both and adjective
(righteous) and a noun (one who is just).
They did not believe in spirits and as I have said
used this a ploy to assert ridicule and instigate
support from those who did believe in spirits that
Jesus was possessed.
John N. Lupia, III
31 Norwich Drive
Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
Phone: (732) 341-8689
Editor, Roman Catholic News
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
There's a lot in your message that I don't understand.
First, are you saying that the author of GTh 19b thinks that Jesus'
words are energized by daimons/demons?
Second, what is the exegetical basis for supposing that the verse is
about daimons/demons? Is it just because the idea of animated stones is
Third, since the Jewish and Christian version of this platonic gesture
employed angels (as mediators of prayers and prophecy) rather than the
daimons of Plato, wouldn't it make sense to suppose that GThomas would
think in these terms as well?
John C. Poirier
John Lupia wrote:
> On another list a discussion apeared on Gth 19b, whichSynoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
> I have not as yet received permission by the list
> member to post their remarks here so I will take this
> opportunity to discuss it independently of it in order
> to demonstrate the complete cacography of Gth in this
> GTh 19b, "If you become my disciples and listen to My
> words, these stones will minister to you."
> This is based on the ancient Greek theory of diamonia.
> Plato has two pertinent citations: Epinomis, 977ff.,
> places them as the spirits who live and reign in the
> third heaven as interpreters and mediators between
> gods and men. Socrates, apud Symposion, 27d-e,"For the
> whole demonial race is between Deity and mortals,
> acting as interpreters or messengers to both. Through
> this passes all divination, and the whole prophetical
> art; for Deity mingles not directly with the human
> race, but through these media is ever carried on the
> intercourse between Heaven and men, both when awake
> and when asleep." What the sarcastic verse of GTh 19
> conveys is the Greek notion that when one speaks the
> voice goes through the air and to the ear of the
> listener conveyed by a diamon. These diamonia had the
> power to effect the interior mind and heart of men.
> Mental illness and insanity was the result of diamonia
> possessing an individual making them irrational.
> Hence, the gist of GTh 19 is that those who listen to
> Jesus words have the diamonia possess them making
> them insane to think that stones will minister to
> them. Consequently, the Sadducaic view that Jesus was
> possessed by Beelzebub cited in Lk 11:15-19; Mt 10:25;
> 12:24-7; Mk 3:2.
List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...