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Re: [Synoptic-L] The Aramaic-Greek transition

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic, but I m receiving only Ron s posts. Is anyone else experiencing this? Jeffery Hodges ===== Horace Jeffery
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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      Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic,
      but I'm receiving only Ron's posts.

      Is anyone else experiencing this?

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Horace Jeffery Hodges, Ph.D. (University of California, Berkeley)
      Assistant Professor
      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
      447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
      Yangsandong 411
      South Korea

      __________________________________________________
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      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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    • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/15/2003 2:56:05 PM Central Standard Time, ... In a word, yes. et Ed Tyler http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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        In a message dated 1/15/2003 2:56:05 PM Central Standard Time, jefferyhodges@... writes:

        Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic,
        but I'm receiving only Ron's posts.

        Is anyone else experiencing this?

        Jeffery Hodges


        In a word, yes.

        et

        Ed Tyler

        http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html

      • LARRY SWAIN
        My fault I fear. I hit reply by habit, rather than reply all . My apologies to all. Larry Swain ... Synoptic-L Homepage:
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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          My fault I fear. I hit reply by habit, rather than
          "reply all". My apologies to all.

          Larry Swain
          --- Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
          wrote:
          > Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic,
          > but I'm receiving only Ron's posts.
          >
          > Is anyone else experiencing this?
          >
          > Jeffery Hodges
          >
          > =====
          > Horace Jeffery Hodges, Ph.D. (University of
          > California, Berkeley)
          > Assistant Professor
          > Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
          > 447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
          > Yangsandong 411
          > South Korea
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
          > now.
          > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
          >
          > Synoptic-L Homepage:
          > http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...


          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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        • Ron Price
          ... Ed, I m dubious about the originality of both the words and the setting. ... Agreed. ... I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul was the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 16, 2003
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            Ed Tyler wrote:

            >Most scholars, however, doubt that these are the very words Jesus spoke on
            >this occasion [re "Talitha cumi" in Mk 5:41].

            Ed,

            I'm dubious about the originality of both the words and the setting.

            > Presumably, Mark thought they were or he would not have
            >rendered them verbatim. But it seems to me we need to develop a theory for
            >these Aramaic sayings that does not rely upon them being precious simply
            >because Jesus spoke them, but rather because the tradition attributed them
            >to him.

            Agreed.

            > Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be so sacred that
            >they would be reproduced in the original language, but the words of the
            >Eucharist would not?

            I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul was the originator
            of the words of the Eucharist.
            So the simple answer is that I think these words probably originated
            in Greek. They were never in Aramaic. This is partially supported by the
            assessment of Aramaic scholars that "my blood of the covenant" (Mk
            14:24) can't (according to M.D.Hooker, _The Gospel According to St
            Mark_, London, A&C Black, 1991, p.342) be translated into Aramaic.

            Ron Price

            Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

            e-mail: ron.price@...

            Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • LARRY SWAIN
            ... Ron, But Ed s overall point is still a valid one. One would expect more than a few phrases or words of Aramaic in a miraculous context to be preserved
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 19, 2003
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              --- Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
              > Ed Tyler wrote:
              >
              > > Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be
              > so sacred that
              > >they would be reproduced in the original language,
              > but the words of the
              > >Eucharist would not?
              >
              > I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul
              > was the originator
              > of the words of the Eucharist.
              > So the simple answer is that I think these words
              > probably originated
              > in Greek. They were never in Aramaic. This is
              > partially supported by the
              > assessment of Aramaic scholars that "my blood of the
              > covenant" (Mk
              > 14:24) can't (according to M.D.Hooker, _The Gospel
              > According to St
              > Mark_, London, A&C Black, 1991, p.342) be translated
              > into Aramaic.

              Ron,

              But Ed's overall point is still a valid one. One
              would expect more than a few phrases or words of
              Aramaic in a miraculous context to be preserved rather
              than more extensive citations if indeed preservation
              of Jesus' actual words in his actual language were in
              any way important. Even groups which appear as
              concerned with Judaism as Matthew's and the community
              of the Didache write in Greek. If you maintain your
              premise you are stuck with saying that Jesus made so
              little impact that practically NONE of his
              sayings/teachings were preserved in Aramaic since
              almost all the preserved sayings, even those in Paul,
              are in Greek.

              Larry Swain
              UIC


              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • Ron Price
              ... Larry, On the contrary, in my synoptic theory Jesus original followers recorded 72 sayings attributed to Jesus in Aramaic, these being the TA LOGIA
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 20, 2003
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                Larry Swain wrote:

                > If you maintain your
                >premise you are stuck with saying that Jesus made so
                >little impact that practically NONE of his
                >sayings/teachings were preserved in Aramaic since
                >almost all the preserved sayings, even those in Paul,
                >are in Greek.

                Larry,

                On the contrary, in my synoptic theory Jesus' original followers
                recorded 72 sayings attributed to Jesus in Aramaic, these being the 'TA
                LOGIA' referred to by Papias. The fact that these are no longer
                preserved in their original language has nothing whatsoever to do with
                Jesus' impact on his original followers. For his original Jewish
                followers were all dead by the time the less parochial Christian
                synoptic authors decided to write the stories of Jesus in Greek and to
                incorporate translations of selected sayings from the Aramaic
                collection.

                Ron Price

                Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                e-mail: ron.price@...

                Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • Tim Reynolds
                ... You can say my blood of the covenant in Hebrew, why not in Aramaic? tim Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l List Owner:
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 20, 2003
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                  on 1/19/03 9:22 PM, LARRY SWAIN at theswain@... wrote:

                  > --- Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
                  >> Ed Tyler wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be
                  >> so sacred that
                  >>> they would be reproduced in the original language,
                  >> but the words of the
                  >>> Eucharist would not?
                  >>
                  >> I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul
                  >> was the originator
                  >> of the words of the Eucharist.
                  >> So the simple answer is that I think these words
                  >> probably originated
                  >> in Greek. They were never in Aramaic. This is
                  >> partially supported by the
                  >> assessment of Aramaic scholars that "my blood of the
                  >> covenant" (Mk
                  >> 14:24) can't (according to M.D.Hooker, _The Gospel
                  >> According to St
                  >> Mark_, London, A&C Black, 1991, p.342) be translated
                  >> into Aramaic.
                  >
                  > Ron,
                  >
                  > But Ed's overall point is still a valid one. One
                  > would expect more than a few phrases or words of
                  > Aramaic in a miraculous context to be preserved rather
                  > than more extensive citations if indeed preservation
                  > of Jesus' actual words in his actual language were in
                  > any way important. Even groups which appear as
                  > concerned with Judaism as Matthew's and the community
                  > of the Didache write in Greek. If you maintain your
                  > premise you are stuck with saying that Jesus made so
                  > little impact that practically NONE of his
                  > sayings/teachings were preserved in Aramaic since
                  > almost all the preserved sayings, even those in Paul,
                  > are in Greek.
                  >
                  > Larry Swain
                  > UIC
                  >
                  >
                  > Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...

                  You can say "my blood of the covenant" in Hebrew, why not in Aramaic?

                  tim


                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • DaGoi@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/21/3 12:40:35 AM, (so interwoven i have to say I read : ... Because this is not a magical formula, but a prophetic shared experience and
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 21, 2003
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                    In a message dated 1/21/3 12:40:35 AM, (so interwoven i have to say "I read":

                    <<on 1/19/03 9:22 PM, LARRY SWAIN at theswain@... wrote:

                    > --- Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
                    >> Ed Tyler wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be
                    >> so sacred that
                    >>> they would be reproduced in the original language,
                    >> but the words of the
                    >>> Eucharist would not?

                    Because this is not a magical formula, but a prophetic shared experience and
                    so it was important to understand the words while the cult was relatively
                    new. When it got old and aquired a bit of cultural authority then it'd be
                    prone to being holy stale.

                    <<
                    You can say "my blood of the covenant" in Hebrew, why not in Aramaic?

                    tim
                    >>

                    if there is a reason, maybe that's why the scripture wasn't translated into
                    Aramaic: couldn't do Ex 24.8. hmm, is there an aramaic targum on exodus
                    24.8?

                    Bill Foley
                    Woburn

                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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