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Re: [Synoptic-L] The Aramaic-Greek transition

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  • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/15/2003 12:06:45 PM Central Standard Time, ... Most scholars, however, doubt that these are the very words Jesus spoke on this occasion.
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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      In a message dated 1/15/2003 12:06:45 PM Central Standard Time, ron.price@... writes:


      I didn't mean that translation would have presented any *technical*
      difficulty. I meant that there would have been a special preciousness in
      the very words which Jesus spoke, as is evidenced in Mark's retention of
      Aramaic in e.g. Mk 5:41 in spite of the expectation (based on the fact
      that he provided the Greek translation) that his readers would not
      understand the words.

      Ron Price



      Most scholars, however, doubt that these are the very words Jesus spoke on this occasion.  Presumably, Mark thought they were or he would not have rendered them verbatim.  But it seems to me we need to develop a theory for these Aramaic sayings that does not rely upon them being precious simply because Jesus spoke them, but rather because the tradition attributed them to him.  Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be so sacred that they would be reproduced in the original language, but the words of the Eucharist would not?

      Ed Tyler

      http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html

    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic, but I m receiving only Ron s posts. Is anyone else experiencing this? Jeffery Hodges ===== Horace Jeffery
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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        Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic,
        but I'm receiving only Ron's posts.

        Is anyone else experiencing this?

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Horace Jeffery Hodges, Ph.D. (University of California, Berkeley)
        Assistant Professor
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

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      • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/15/2003 2:56:05 PM Central Standard Time, ... In a word, yes. et Ed Tyler http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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          In a message dated 1/15/2003 2:56:05 PM Central Standard Time, jefferyhodges@... writes:

          Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic,
          but I'm receiving only Ron's posts.

          Is anyone else experiencing this?

          Jeffery Hodges


          In a word, yes.

          et

          Ed Tyler

          http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html

        • LARRY SWAIN
          My fault I fear. I hit reply by habit, rather than reply all . My apologies to all. Larry Swain ... Synoptic-L Homepage:
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 15, 2003
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            My fault I fear. I hit reply by habit, rather than
            "reply all". My apologies to all.

            Larry Swain
            --- Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
            wrote:
            > Ron Price and Larry Swain are discussing this topic,
            > but I'm receiving only Ron's posts.
            >
            > Is anyone else experiencing this?
            >
            > Jeffery Hodges
            >
            > =====
            > Horace Jeffery Hodges, Ph.D. (University of
            > California, Berkeley)
            > Assistant Professor
            > Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
            > 447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
            > Yangsandong 411
            > South Korea
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
            > now.
            > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
            >
            > Synoptic-L Homepage:
            > http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...


            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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          • Ron Price
            ... Ed, I m dubious about the originality of both the words and the setting. ... Agreed. ... I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul was the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 16, 2003
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              Ed Tyler wrote:

              >Most scholars, however, doubt that these are the very words Jesus spoke on
              >this occasion [re "Talitha cumi" in Mk 5:41].

              Ed,

              I'm dubious about the originality of both the words and the setting.

              > Presumably, Mark thought they were or he would not have
              >rendered them verbatim. But it seems to me we need to develop a theory for
              >these Aramaic sayings that does not rely upon them being precious simply
              >because Jesus spoke them, but rather because the tradition attributed them
              >to him.

              Agreed.

              > Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be so sacred that
              >they would be reproduced in the original language, but the words of the
              >Eucharist would not?

              I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul was the originator
              of the words of the Eucharist.
              So the simple answer is that I think these words probably originated
              in Greek. They were never in Aramaic. This is partially supported by the
              assessment of Aramaic scholars that "my blood of the covenant" (Mk
              14:24) can't (according to M.D.Hooker, _The Gospel According to St
              Mark_, London, A&C Black, 1991, p.342) be translated into Aramaic.

              Ron Price

              Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

              e-mail: ron.price@...

              Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • LARRY SWAIN
              ... Ron, But Ed s overall point is still a valid one. One would expect more than a few phrases or words of Aramaic in a miraculous context to be preserved
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 19, 2003
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                --- Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
                > Ed Tyler wrote:
                >
                > > Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be
                > so sacred that
                > >they would be reproduced in the original language,
                > but the words of the
                > >Eucharist would not?
                >
                > I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul
                > was the originator
                > of the words of the Eucharist.
                > So the simple answer is that I think these words
                > probably originated
                > in Greek. They were never in Aramaic. This is
                > partially supported by the
                > assessment of Aramaic scholars that "my blood of the
                > covenant" (Mk
                > 14:24) can't (according to M.D.Hooker, _The Gospel
                > According to St
                > Mark_, London, A&C Black, 1991, p.342) be translated
                > into Aramaic.

                Ron,

                But Ed's overall point is still a valid one. One
                would expect more than a few phrases or words of
                Aramaic in a miraculous context to be preserved rather
                than more extensive citations if indeed preservation
                of Jesus' actual words in his actual language were in
                any way important. Even groups which appear as
                concerned with Judaism as Matthew's and the community
                of the Didache write in Greek. If you maintain your
                premise you are stuck with saying that Jesus made so
                little impact that practically NONE of his
                sayings/teachings were preserved in Aramaic since
                almost all the preserved sayings, even those in Paul,
                are in Greek.

                Larry Swain
                UIC


                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • Ron Price
                ... Larry, On the contrary, in my synoptic theory Jesus original followers recorded 72 sayings attributed to Jesus in Aramaic, these being the TA LOGIA
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 20, 2003
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                  Larry Swain wrote:

                  > If you maintain your
                  >premise you are stuck with saying that Jesus made so
                  >little impact that practically NONE of his
                  >sayings/teachings were preserved in Aramaic since
                  >almost all the preserved sayings, even those in Paul,
                  >are in Greek.

                  Larry,

                  On the contrary, in my synoptic theory Jesus' original followers
                  recorded 72 sayings attributed to Jesus in Aramaic, these being the 'TA
                  LOGIA' referred to by Papias. The fact that these are no longer
                  preserved in their original language has nothing whatsoever to do with
                  Jesus' impact on his original followers. For his original Jewish
                  followers were all dead by the time the less parochial Christian
                  synoptic authors decided to write the stories of Jesus in Greek and to
                  incorporate translations of selected sayings from the Aramaic
                  collection.

                  Ron Price

                  Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                  e-mail: ron.price@...

                  Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • Tim Reynolds
                  ... You can say my blood of the covenant in Hebrew, why not in Aramaic? tim Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l List Owner:
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 20, 2003
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                    on 1/19/03 9:22 PM, LARRY SWAIN at theswain@... wrote:

                    > --- Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
                    >> Ed Tyler wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be
                    >> so sacred that
                    >>> they would be reproduced in the original language,
                    >> but the words of the
                    >>> Eucharist would not?
                    >>
                    >> I have suggested on the Corpus-Paul list that Paul
                    >> was the originator
                    >> of the words of the Eucharist.
                    >> So the simple answer is that I think these words
                    >> probably originated
                    >> in Greek. They were never in Aramaic. This is
                    >> partially supported by the
                    >> assessment of Aramaic scholars that "my blood of the
                    >> covenant" (Mk
                    >> 14:24) can't (according to M.D.Hooker, _The Gospel
                    >> According to St
                    >> Mark_, London, A&C Black, 1991, p.342) be translated
                    >> into Aramaic.
                    >
                    > Ron,
                    >
                    > But Ed's overall point is still a valid one. One
                    > would expect more than a few phrases or words of
                    > Aramaic in a miraculous context to be preserved rather
                    > than more extensive citations if indeed preservation
                    > of Jesus' actual words in his actual language were in
                    > any way important. Even groups which appear as
                    > concerned with Judaism as Matthew's and the community
                    > of the Didache write in Greek. If you maintain your
                    > premise you are stuck with saying that Jesus made so
                    > little impact that practically NONE of his
                    > sayings/teachings were preserved in Aramaic since
                    > almost all the preserved sayings, even those in Paul,
                    > are in Greek.
                    >
                    > Larry Swain
                    > UIC
                    >
                    >
                    > Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...

                    You can say "my blood of the covenant" in Hebrew, why not in Aramaic?

                    tim


                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • DaGoi@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/21/3 12:40:35 AM, (so interwoven i have to say I read : ... Because this is not a magical formula, but a prophetic shared experience and
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 21, 2003
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                      In a message dated 1/21/3 12:40:35 AM, (so interwoven i have to say "I read":

                      <<on 1/19/03 9:22 PM, LARRY SWAIN at theswain@... wrote:

                      > --- Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
                      >> Ed Tyler wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> Why, for instance, would "little girl, arise" be
                      >> so sacred that
                      >>> they would be reproduced in the original language,
                      >> but the words of the
                      >>> Eucharist would not?

                      Because this is not a magical formula, but a prophetic shared experience and
                      so it was important to understand the words while the cult was relatively
                      new. When it got old and aquired a bit of cultural authority then it'd be
                      prone to being holy stale.

                      <<
                      You can say "my blood of the covenant" in Hebrew, why not in Aramaic?

                      tim
                      >>

                      if there is a reason, maybe that's why the scripture wasn't translated into
                      Aramaic: couldn't do Ex 24.8. hmm, is there an aramaic targum on exodus
                      24.8?

                      Bill Foley
                      Woburn

                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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