Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: [XTalk] The Twelve

Expand Messages
  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/6/02 7:47:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, K.Hanhart@net.HCC.nl writes: Karel s response:
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 6 6:33 AM
      In a message dated 10/6/02 7:47:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
      K.Hanhart@... writes:


      Karel's response:

      << No, I don't know your "position on this text". I challenged you to offer
      an exegesis of Mark's open tomb story or of Matthew's open tomb story
      for that matter.>>

      I don't think it is necessary for me to give a full exegesis of these texts
      in order to make the point that I agree with you that the originator of this
      story (and I would add, as opposed to the one who essentially copied it) may
      well have been engaging in a midrash on Is 22:16. In the general direction of
      your argument, I think you have the advantage over Bultmann here to be sure.
      We disagree on the identity of the originator of the story, but I don't have
      the impression that you have ever seriously entertained, even for the sake of
      argument, the possibility that this was Matthew rather than Mark. I gave you
      some evidence in support of this view, to which you chose not to respond
      (Matthew's text is actually closer to Is 22:16 LXX than is Mark's). I have
      invited you in the past (but this is all I can do) to do something really far
      out, namely, to let go of the Markan hypothesis just long enough to see what
      would happen on the hypothesis that Matthew rather than Mark was the scribe
      who initiated this midrash. I realize that Peter is not mentioned in
      Matthew's resurrection account, and so part of your argument with reference
      to the text of Mark would not work with Matthew. But would it be possible,
      e.g., to make an even more effective and direct connection between the burial
      text and Matt 16:13-20 -- which, after all, is also based in part on the same
      Isaian text? The Markan reference to Peter in 16:7 could then be recognized
      for what I think it actually is, namely, a typical Markan expansion, based on
      Pauline tradition (1 Cor 15:5), but without any particular significance
      attaching to Mark's use of 'Peter' instead of 'Kephas'. How, by the way, do
      you expain the absence of a reference to Peter in the parallel passages of
      Matthew and Luke?

      Leonard Maluf



      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
    • Karel Hanhart
      ... Karel: Leonard, You evidently haven t read my book - it is 600 pp ! -, in which among other themes I treat the four open tomb stories we have. In it I ve
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 11 2:28 AM
        Maluflen@... wrote:

        > In a message dated 10/6/02 7:47:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        > K.Hanhart@... writes:
        >
        > Karel's response:
        >
        > << No, I don't know your "position on this text". I challenged you to offer
        > an exegesis of Mark's open tomb story or of Matthew's open tomb story
        > for that matter.>>
        >
        > I don't think it is necessary for me to give a full exegesis of these texts
        > in order to make the point that I agree with you that the originator of this
        > story (and I would add, as opposed to the one who essentially copied it) may
        > well have been engaging in a midrash on Is 22:16. In the general direction of
        > your argument, I think you have the advantage over Bultmann here to be sure.
        > We disagree on the identity of the originator of the story

        Karel:
        Leonard, You evidently haven't read my book - it is 600 pp ! -, in which among
        other themes I treat the four open tomb stories we have. In it I've searched for
        the historical context that triggered the first narrative and to trace through
        an exegesis of all four why the four Gospels vary in detail. In my opinion
        your argument in the previous post is seriously flawed. On the one hand you
        agree that the "originator" of this story may well have been engaging in a
        midrash on Isa 22,16. On the other hand, you wrote "I'm not sure why a literal
        discovery of an empty tomb would be unsatisfactory." Therefore, you
        hypothesize (a) an "originator" writing a midrash on an Isaiah passage
        that deals with the conquest of Jerusalem. Analysis of the Isaiah passage
        led men like Rashi to conclude that the word "tomb" in Isa 22
        is used metaphorically for the temple. This is in contradiction to
        (b) your literal discovery of the empty tomb of Jesus. There is no tertium
        here. The word tomb is used metaphorically or we are indeed
        dealing with Jesus' literal grave.
        I prefer to start with the Gospel text itself in stead of proposing
        an "originator" who hypothetically knew that Jesus' grave was
        found empty. Starting with the texts we have, I noted that in none
        of the Gospels it is suggested that SOME of the miracles should
        be taken in a literal historical sense and OTHERS in a metaphorical
        sense. All miracles happen as a matter of course whether it be the
        silencing of the storm, the multiplication of bread or the contra-natural
        removal of a tombstone. The exegete is thus faced with the alternative:
        the Gospel writers (a) either want their readers to take all of them
        in a literal sense or (b) in a metaphorical sense. For they nowhere
        indicate that certain stories should be read in the (a) category and
        others in the (b).
        Believing a historically empty tomb is a legitimate position,
        held by generations before us. I don't wish to ridicule that position.
        Many wonderful persons have believed this; others still believe it.
        I am simply reporting that a different interpretation of Mark's faith
        and hope is more acceptable in a historical and literary sense.
        Mark and Matthew deliberately quote scripture in order to make
        sure their readers will understand their stories in the light of that
        Scripture. Take the key verse of Jesus' confession before Caiaphas
        which led to his death. The confession "I am" (Mk 14,62; namely,
        the Messiah) must be read according to Mark in the context of the
        divine promise made in the vision of the 'Son of Man' in Da 7
        - 'coming with the clouds of heaven' and of Psalm 110,1 -'sitting
        at the right hand'.
        I take it that we both do not opt for the fundamentalist's position.
        Mark's readers were perfectly aware that Mark wasn't in Caiaphas'
        courtroom noting what Jesus said. He is rather formulating the faith
        of the ecclesia some forty years after Jesus' crucifixion.
        You charge me of not having seriously considered that Matthew wrote
        before Mark. I did so at length. Just briefly. It is true that Matthew's
        citation is slightly closer to LXX Isa 22,16 than Mark's version
        (en petrai contra ek petras) . But Matthew is over all more precise
        in his citing of scripture, than Mark. He simply is correcting Mark here.
        However, as I have shown in my exegesis, the longer text of
        Matthew (27,57-66; 28,1-20) can be interpreted as a reaction by
        Matthew to Mark's story. Moreover, the opponents of Matthew's
        ecclesia (in the synagogue across the street - so to speak - ) also
        reacted to Mark's new post-70 story interpreting the meaning of
        the destruction of the temple in the light of his faith in Jesus'
        resurrection. The process was, I think, that Matthew's community
        received Mark's new post-70 ending of his Gospel and the opponents
        also learned of this "open tomb" story through hearsay.
        Matthew clearly responds in ironic fashion to charges by the opponents
        who mockingly said that the disciples had stolen the body (27,64).
        Moreover, in that same passage Matthew uses the Markan (!)
        unique phrase "after three days" (Mk 8,31;9,31; 10, 34) in stead of
        his own "on the third day" in the parallel predictions, thus showing
        that he knows the Markan passion predictions perfectly well.
        Matthew's emphatic 'opse' = "late", namely, on the sabbath,
        Nisan 16 in 27,1 (so rightly Goulder) can be well explained
        after one has read Mark first. For Mark has the women see
        that the stone has ALREADY been removed early in the morning
        "on the first day of the Feast of Weeks (which is the day of the "first fruits").

        But Matthew has an angel personally remove that stone earlier in time
        at the very moment the Sabbath of Nisan 16 turns into the Sunday
        of Nisan 17, namely, "late on the sabbath" when the stars begin to shine.
        On biblical calendar a new day begins in the evening and not 12.00 pm.
        In Matthew Roman soldiers fall dead while women are merely watching.
        This also reacting in faith to Roman might after 70. Goulder has shown
        that Matthew's embellishment can be explained after he had read Mark's
        version first. In other words the faith in Jesus' resurrection and
        its contradiction in the synagogue was a matter of bitter dispute especially
        after the destruction of the temple. Mark and Matthew (in that order) reflect
        that debate and instruct their readers accordingly..
        It is a fact of present history that in the synagogue the SABBATH is
        revered according to scripture to this very day and in it Nisan 16
        is taken to be the first of the fifty days of Pentecost. In the church,
        however, the faith in the risen Christ slowly developed in the
        substitution of the sabbath for the SUNDAY. This is not yet the case
        in the Gospels. In the Synoptics the open tomb story is timed on
        SUNDAY, Nisan 17, according to Lv 23,15! Thus the sad outcome
        of the Judean-Roman war formed one of the causes why the ways
        of the synagogue and the ecclesia parted.
        I already indicated that one can explain Mt 16,16-18 (NB "my ecclesia"!)
        as the confirmation of Mark's open tomb story, while it has been always
        difficult to explain Mk's version of Peter's confession (8,27-30) in the case
        Mark wrote LATER than Matthew.
        All four Gospel writers struggle with the meaning of the temple's
        destruction heralding the new exile and all try to relate that incisive
        political event to their belief of Jesus as the paschal lamb.
        IMHO Mark is the first author of the open tomb story and he wrote
        it after 70. He accuses a certain Joseph (coming from Rama) of trying
        in vain to bury "the body" of Jesus on the very day the Pharisees
        celebrate the feast of the "first fruits", In the Mishna emphatically
        Nisan 16. Joseph obviously doesn't succeed in this vain attempt
        - Pilate had derisively handed him only a corpse (15,44). But
        on the "first day" of the "first fruits" on the Christian festival
        calendar (cf Lv 23,15), the women heard the message that
        Jesus had already risen and was going ahead of his own
        into the Galil of the nations. For Mark believed with Paul that
        the ecclesia in exile was living BODY of Christ!

        Leonard:

        > I don't have the impression that you have ever seriously entertained, even for
        > the sake of
        > argument, the possibility that this was Matthew rather than Mark. I gave you
        > some evidence in support of this view, to which you chose not to respond
        > (Matthew's text is actually closer to Is 22:16 LXX than is Mark's). I have
        > invited you in the past (but this is all I can do) to do something really far
        > out, namely, to let go of the Markan hypothesis just long enough to see what
        > would happen on the hypothesis that Matthew rather than Mark was the scribe
        > who initiated this midrash.

        Karel:
        As you see, from the above, I did try in my book to follow your "far out" route
        but got nowhere. I am aware that the Griesbach theory is seriously researched
        but following the Matthew - Mark order, the open tomb story makes no sense.

        > Leonard:

        > I realize that Peter is not mentioned in Matthew's resurrection account, and so
        > part of your argument with reference to the text of Mark would not work with
        > Matthew. But would it be possible, e.g., to make an even more effective and
        > direct connection between the burial
        > text and Matt 16:13-20 -- which, after all, is also based in part on the same
        > Isaian text?

        Karel:
        In an earlier post I placed Mark's metaphorical burial/resurrection story next to
        Matthew
        16,16-18 showing that in this important passage Matthew was confirming and
        adopting the meaning of Mark's open tomb story. It is the start of the formation
        of the canon. Later Luke in his Gospel- Acts will try to explain to non-Judeans
        what the haggadic midrashim of Mk and
        Matthew meant. Matthew recognized Mark's story for what it was: a midrash on LXX
        Isa 22, 16; 33,16 and LXX Gn 28, 2.3 (re. a 'very large stone' to be rolled
        away). That is the reason why he also referred to the "key" in Isa 22,22 and
        stated that the (persecuted) ecclesia of
        Simon Peter in Rome held the "keys" to interpret Scripture.
        The time has passed that Jesus' resurrection was automatically but ineptly
        linked to a supposedly counter-natural, magical removal of a stone rolled before
        the "door'
        of Jesus' grave. This conception was the result of a long process of estrangement
        from the Hebrew tradition. The opening of tombs was long recognized as a metaphor
        of divine redemptive action, by the time Mark wrote his post-70 midrash.

        cordially
        Karel


        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Maluflen@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/11/2002 2:30:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Karel, you are right that I have not (yet) read your 600 page book on the subject, and I
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 11 5:11 AM
          In a message dated 10/11/2002 2:30:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, K.Hanhart@... writes:


          Leonard,  You evidently haven't read my book - it is 600 pp ! -, in which among
          other themes I treat the four open tomb stories we have. In it I've searched for
          the historical context  that triggered the first narrative and to trace through
          an exegesis of all four why the four Gospels vary in detail. In my opinion
          your argument in the previous post is seriously flawed. On the one hand you
          agree that the "originator"  of this story may well have been engaging in a
          midrash on Isa 22,16. On the other hand, you wrote "I'm not sure why a literal
          discovery of an empty tomb would be unsatisfactory."  Therefore, you
          hypothesize (a) an "originator" writing a midrash on an Isaiah passage
          that deals with the conquest of Jerusalem. Analysis of the Isaiah passage
          led men like Rashi to conclude that the word "tomb" in Isa 22
          is used metaphorically for the temple. This is in contradiction to
          (b) your literal discovery of the empty tomb  of Jesus. There is no tertium
          here. The word tomb is used metaphorically or we are indeed
          dealing with Jesus' literal grave.



          Karel, you are right that I have not (yet) read your 600 page book on the subject, and I thank you for taking the time to give us such a good summary of its contents. By doing so, you have certainly given me the incentive to read the book because your thesis is quite brilliant and interesting. I must say, though, that I still find parts of your argument hard to accept. For example, I am still not sure why your understanding of a midrash here need absolutely exclude the discovery of an empty tomb on Easter morning. Can texts not be multivalent in this way? With both an historical reference, and then an overlay of biblical reflection and midrash? I see your point, but am not fully convinced yet that it requires abandoning any hint of historical remembrance of the woman at the tomb on Easter morning.


              I prefer to start with the Gospel text  itself in stead of proposing
          an "originator" who hypothetically knew that Jesus' grave was
          found empty. Starting with the texts we have, I noted that in none
          of the Gospels it is suggested  that SOME of the miracles should
          be taken in a literal historical sense and OTHERS in a metaphorical
          sense.  All miracles happen as a matter of course whether it be the
          silencing of the storm, the multiplication of bread or the contra-natural
          removal of a tombstone. The exegete is thus faced with the alternative:
          the Gospel writers (a) either want their readers to take all of them
          in a literal sense or (b) in a metaphorical sense. For they nowhere
          indicate that certain stories should be read in the (a) category and
          others in the (b).


          Are you saying then that all the miracles in the Gospel tradition should be understood in a purely metaphorical sense? Again, I suppose I would have to agree with you if I were convinced that your dichotomy between literal vs. metaphorical was valid. I am not yet at that point.

              Believing  a historically empty tomb is a legitimate position,
          held by generations before us. I don't wish to ridicule that position.
          Many wonderful persons have believed this; others still believe it.
          I am simply reporting that a different interpretation of Mark's faith
          and hope is more acceptable in a historical and literary sense.
              Mark and Matthew deliberately quote scripture in order to make
          sure their readers will understand their stories in the light of that
          Scripture.


          My problem with the theory of two trained scribes as Evangelists is that I think it is more likely, a priori, that only one of the two was a trained scribe and that is why the other had to engage in so much copying. Now I don't see sophisticated use of the OT in Mark that does not have a parallel in Matt, and I do see sophisticated scribal use of OT in Matthew where there is no Markan parallel. The strict logical conclusion from this evidence is that Matthew is the scribe.


          Take the key verse of Jesus' confession before Caiaphas
          which led to his death. The confession "I am" (Mk 14,62; namely,
          the Messiah) must be read according to Mark in the context of the
          divine promise made in the vision of the 'Son of Man' in Da 7
          - 'coming with the clouds of heaven' and of Psalm 110,1 -'sitting
          at the right hand'.


          I agree that these two texts are involved here in these parallel texts, but how is Mark's "I am", in particular, based on these two scriptures, which after all are the basis of the Matthean text as well? And if the words "I am" do clearly reflect these texts, why does Matthew change this, in your view?


              I take it that we both do not opt for the fundamentalist's position.
          Mark's readers were perfectly aware that Mark wasn't in Caiaphas'
          courtroom  noting what Jesus said. He is rather formulating the faith
          of the ecclesia some forty years after Jesus' crucifixion.


          In general I would agree with this, but I guess I will have to read your book before I will be convinced that the Gospel texts we have absolutely require the lapse of forty years or so from the time of Jesus' death. I am not convinced of this yet, although I suppose it is possible.

              You charge me of not having seriously considered that Matthew wrote
          before Mark. I did so at length. Just briefly. It is true that Matthew's
          citation is slightly closer to LXX Isa 22,16 than Mark's version
          (en petrai contra ek petras) . But Matthew is over all more precise
          in his citing of scripture, than Mark.
          He simply is correcting Mark here.

              However, as I have shown in my exegesis, the longer text of
          Matthew (27,57-66; 28,1-20) can be interpreted as a reaction by
          Matthew to Mark's story.


          This would be interesting to read. But I suspect you are right in saying that Matthew's text CAN be interpreted as a reaction by Matthew to Mark's story. This is in general the shape of the argument of most Markan priorists. I know you also think that Mark's text CANNOT be derived from Matthew's. This is what is not clear to me yet. The next paragraphs in your post are also interesting, but much of the evidence you see as pointing to Markan priority seems patient of a reverse interpretation as well.

          [...]


          In an earlier post I placed Mark's metaphorical burial/resurrection story next to
          Matthew 16,16-18 showing that in this important passage Matthew was confirming and adopting the meaning of Mark's open tomb story. It is the start of the formation
          of the canon. Later Luke in his Gospel- Acts will try to explain to non-Judeans
          what the haggadic midrashim of Mk and Matthew meant. Matthew recognized Mark's story for what it was: a midrash on LXX Isa 22, 16; 33,16 and LXX Gn 28, 2.3 (re. a 'very large stone' to be rolled away).


          This description of Mark's work sounds so out of character for the author of Mark that I derive out of reading his text. And it is clearly in character for Matthew to be doing this kind of fairly abstruse midrash. He has been doing it from the very beginning of his Gospel. If he used the OT texts so creatively, with such scribal sophistication, in the opening two chapters of his gospel, why would Matthew then suddenly descend to basically copying Mark's scribal work in much of the body of the gospel? This is quite out of character with the way scribes work, I think.


          That is the reason why he also referred to the "key" in Isa 22,22 and stated that the (persecuted) ecclesia of Simon Peter in Rome held the "keys" to interpret Scripture.
              The time has passed that Jesus' resurrection was automatically but ineptly
          linked to a supposedly counter-natural, magical removal  of a stone rolled before
          the "door' of Jesus' grave. This conception was the result of a long process of estrangement from the Hebrew tradition. The opening of tombs was long recognized as a metaphor of divine redemptive action, by the time Mark wrote his post-70 midrash.



          These are pertinent remarks, especially in commenting on Matthew's text. I would understand Mark's Gospel as already belonging to "the long process of estrangement from the Hebrew tradition", and perhaps as one who himself understood the (already traditional, Matthean) tomb story in a literal sense. It is clear to me that you vehemently oppose this position, but you have not yet persuaded me to revise my own historical reconstruction of the genesis and order of the Gospels, which I still think makes better sense of the data as a whole.

          Leonard Maluf
        • Karel Hanhart
          ... Leonard, In christian tradition the concept of Jesus resurrection has nearly always implied the change of a physical body (or corpse) into a spiritual
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 12 11:00 AM
            Maluflen@... wrote:

            > In a message dated 10/11/2002 2:30:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            > K.Hanhart@... writes:
            >
            >
            >
            >> Leonard, You evidently haven't read my book - it is 600 pp ! -, in
            >> which among
            >> other themes I treat the four open tomb stories we have. In it I've
            >> searched for
            >> the historical context that triggered the first narrative and to
            >> trace through
            >> an exegesis of all four why the four Gospels vary in detail. In my
            >> opinion
            >> your argument in the previous post is seriously flawed. On the one
            >> hand you
            >> agree that the "originator" of this story may well have been
            >> engaging in a
            >> midrash on Isa 22,16. On the other hand, you wrote "I'm not sure why
            >> a literal
            >> discovery of an empty tomb would be unsatisfactory." Therefore, you
            >>
            >> hypothesize (a) an "originator" writing a midrash on an Isaiah
            >> passage
            >> that deals with the conquest of Jerusalem. Analysis of the Isaiah
            >> passage
            >> led men like Rashi to conclude that the word "tomb" in Isa 22
            >> is used metaphorically for the temple. This is in contradiction to
            >> (b) your literal discovery of the empty tomb of Jesus. There is no
            >> tertium
            >> here. The word tomb is used metaphorically or we are indeed
            >> dealing with Jesus' literal grave.
            >
            > Karel, you are right that I have not (yet) read your 600 page book on
            > the subject, and I thank you for taking the time to give us such a
            > good summary of its contents. By doing so, you have certainly given me
            > the incentive to read the book because your thesis is quite brilliant
            > and interesting. I must say, though, that I still find parts of your
            > argument hard to accept. For example, I am still not sure why your
            > understanding of a midrash here need absolutely exclude the discovery
            > of an empty tomb on Easter morning. Can texts not be multivalent in
            > this way? With both an historical reference, and then an overlay of
            > biblical reflection and midrash? I see your point, but am not fully
            > convinced yet that it requires abandoning any hint of historical
            > remembrance of the woman at the tomb on Easter morning.
            >

            Leonard,
            In christian tradition the concept of Jesus' resurrection has nearly
            always implied the change of
            a physical body (or corpse) into a spiritual body and thus the ability
            of arising to a new mode of existence. The notion of a 'spiritual body'
            is usually borrowed from 1 Cor 15,44.46. For Paul was contrasting the
            known form of existence and a life far surpassing human understanding (2
            Cor 5.1-10). But Paul only uses the verb to 'be changed' with reference
            to the living, not the dead. "we, the living shall be changed and the
            dead shall be raised incorruptible". He is answering people who cannot
            'imagine' a general resurrection in the end. It is difficult to
            determine in how far Paul was using contemporary rabbinic theology - the
            general resurrection was part of their eschatology - or simply meeting
            a concern of readers and hearers who were used to a Platonic way of
            thinking. But nowhere Paul mentions an empty tomb when testifying to
            Jesus' resurrection. In fact, he simply can describe his own death as
            a 'departure' and 'raising the anchor' (Philp 1,23) and at the same time
            of hoping to attain "the resurrection of the dead" (Phil 3,11). He
            stresses, it seems, the 'wholly other aspect' of the life to come
            without worrying about how that can be. To him it is important to press
            on toward the goal (Philp 3,14).

            >> I prefer to start with the Gospel text itself in stead of
            >> proposing
            >> an "originator" who hypothetically knew that Jesus' grave was
            >> found empty. Starting with the texts we have, I noted that in none
            >> of the Gospels it is suggested that SOME of the miracles should
            >> be taken in a literal historical sense and OTHERS in a metaphorical
            >> sense. All miracles happen as a matter of course whether it be the
            >> silencing of the storm, the multiplication of bread or the
            >> contra-natural
            >> removal of a tombstone. The exegete is thus faced with the
            >> alternative:
            >> the Gospel writers (a) either want their readers to take all of them
            >>
            >> in a literal sense or (b) in a metaphorical sense. For they nowhere
            >> indicate that certain stories should be read in the (a) category and
            >>
            >> others in the (b).
            >
            > Are you saying then that all the miracles in the Gospel tradition
            > should be understood in a purely metaphorical sense?

            yes

            > Again, I suppose I would have to agree with you if I were convinced
            > that your dichotomy between literal vs. metaphorical was valid. I am
            > not yet at that point.
            >
            >> Believing a historically empty tomb is a legitimate position,
            >> held by generations before us. I don't wish to ridicule that
            >> position.
            >> Many wonderful persons have believed this; others still believe it.
            >> I am simply reporting that a different interpretation of Mark's
            >> faith
            >> and hope is more acceptable in a historical and literary sense.
            >> Mark and Matthew deliberately quote scripture in order to make
            >> sure their readers will understand their stories in the light of
            >> that
            >> Scripture.
            >
            > My problem with the theory of two trained scribes as Evangelists is
            > that I think it is more likely, a priori, that only one of the two was
            > a trained scribe and that is why the other had to engage in so much
            > copying. Now I don't see sophisticated use of the OT in Mark that does
            > not have a parallel in Matt, and I do see sophisticated scribal use of
            > OT in Matthew where there is no Markan parallel. The strict logical
            > conclusion from this evidence is that Matthew is the scribe.

            Mark's task, (- the rewriting of a pre-70 document, possibly his own - )
            was quite different from that of Matthew. His special aim was to
            incorporate the awesome turn of events of 70 into the pre-70 passion
            story. He wasn't about to write a complete Gospel, but he wanted a
            passion week in which the destruction of the temple (including the end
            of animal sacrifice), the delay of the parousia and the new exile were
            now included. He related the crucifixion of the messiah and his
            messianic
            woes with the passion of his people. The Romans, wars and rumors of
            wars, Gentile nations and a centurion play a prominent role in his new
            script. The remainder of this second edition of "Urmarkus" had, of
            course, to be brought into line with the message of his new 'passion
            week'
            (11-16,8) as well as his three-fold passion prediction. His redaction
            left various traces in the remaining part. Especially in the first
            chapter (the prologue to his drama) he sketches in brief 2-line
            statements (f.i. re. the role of Baptist) the outlines of what was
            already written with certain specific alterations. The citation of
            Isaiah 40 now is preceded by means of a midrash by Exod 23,20; Mal 3,1
            (!) concerning the precursor and the refiners fire and the purification
            of the Levites. It appears that with these brief sketches he is
            reminding his readers of the pre-70 Gospel they already know and used.
            In Matthew and Luke a fuller account is written,f.i. of the Baptist and
            his disciples (= Q). The latter probably had a much more prominent place
            in this pre-70 Gospel. But the Baptist, personifying the contemporary
            Elijah still recur in canonical Mark throughout, up to 15,36 (!),yet his
            role is less emphasized.

            >> Take the key verse of Jesus' confession before Caiaphas
            >> which led to his death. The confession "I am" (Mk 14,62; namely,
            >> the Messiah) must be read according to Mark in the context of the
            >> divine promise made in the vision of the 'Son of Man' in Da 7
            >> - 'coming with the clouds of heaven' and of Psalm 110,1 -'sitting
            >> at the right hand'.
            >
            > I agree that these two texts are involved here in these parallel
            > texts, but how is Mark's "I am", in particular, based on these two
            > scriptures, which after all are the basis of the Matthean text as
            > well? And if the words "I am" do clearly reflect these texts, why does
            > Matthew change this, in your view?

            There are a number of options. Did Mt want to avoid his readers to think
            Mark was referring to the divine name: I AM? Did he want to stress that
            the Jesus didn't himself say he was the Messiah, because historically he
            hadn't done so? "Historical Jesus" research may one day provide an
            answer/

            >> I take it that we both do not opt for the fundamentalist's
            >> position.
            >> Mark's readers were perfectly aware that Mark wasn't in Caiaphas'
            >> courtroom noting what Jesus said. He is rather formulating the
            >> faith
            >> of the ecclesia some forty years after Jesus' crucifixion.
            >
            > In general I would agree with this, but I guess I will have to read
            > your book before I will be convinced that the Gospel texts we have
            > absolutely require the lapse of forty years or so from the time of
            > Jesus' death. I am not convinced of this yet, although I suppose it is
            > possible.

            I too hesitated for a long time on the date Mark. I always believed Mark
            was the John Mark we know from Scripture. In the end the combination of
            Mark's midrash on Isa 22 and Gen 29 forced me, as it were, to opt for a
            post-70 revision.

            >> However, as I have shown in my exegesis, the longer text of
            >> Matthew (27,57-66; 28,1-20) can be interpreted as a reaction by
            >> Matthew to Mark's story.
            >
            > This would be interesting to read. But I suspect you are right in
            > saying that Matthew's text CAN be interpreted as a reaction by Matthew
            > to Mark's story. This is in general the shape of the argument of most
            > Markan priorists. I know you also think that Mark's text CANNOT be
            > derived from Matthew's. This is what is not clear to me yet. In an
            > earlier post I placed Mark's metaphorical burial/resurrection story
            > next to.

            I wouldn't write 'cannot' in capital letters, myself. Any exegesis of
            Mark is dependent of its presuppositions. That's why research on Mark
            has reached an impasse. We must start with 'probabilities' re. the
            identity of Mark, the place he wrote from and his audience. Nietsche -
            it is told- first adored Wagner, witness his 'birth of a tragedy'. Yet
            in
            later years Nietsche came into his own, and doing so and because of it
            he turned against Wagner. So exegetes of the Gospel usually start
            studying it with great interest, curiosity or even out of love. But in
            the course of the research they investigate a certain aspect of the
            Gospels, - say the date of John, they publish their conclusions (in a
            thesis e.g.), then develop the thesis and end up defending that position
            as long as they can. All of us do this. It is very hard to turn away
            from one's own convictions on which one has spendt so much time and
            effort and openly admit it. Unfortunately, this state of affairs has
            greatly contributed to the impasse.

            >> Matthew 16,16-18 showing that in this important passage Matthew was
            >> confirming and adopting the meaning of Mark's open tomb story. It is
            >> the start of the formation
            >> of the canon. Later Luke in his Gospel- Acts will try to explain to
            >> non-Judeans
            >> what the haggadic midrashim of Mk and Matthew meant. Matthew
            >> recognized Mark's story for what it was: a midrash on LXX Isa 22,
            >> 16; 33,16 and LXX Gn 28, 2.3 (re. a 'very large stone' to be rolled
            >> away).
            >
            > This description of Mark's work sounds so out of character for the
            > author of Mark that I derive out of reading his text.

            > Mark was very careful in constructing his midrashim, f.i. his opening
            > midrash, the transfiguration scene and the final midrash. But other
            > aspects of his Gospel leaves much to be desired, for instance, the order
            and quality of his writing. His Greek is what I sometimes call
            immigrant Greek (the Aramaisms shine through), he retained from the
            pre-70 Gospel the entire story of
            > the death of the Baptist but abbreviated other stories by means of short
            > summaries etc. This fits the idea of his re-editing this pre-70 Gospel, somewhat in haste (- the long sought Q? - Urmarkus? -) for a purpose. It is a short first
            > reaction to 70 aimed for the annual reading and baptism ceremony of
            > new members during Passover/Shabuot. It was a first attempt and as
            > such it baffles modern readers while his own readers were perfectly
            > aware of what he was trying to do. Matthew and Luke developed his
            > story in a much more coherent fashion, but they accepted the main line
            > of his testimony.
            >
            >> That is the reason why he also referred to the "key" in Isa 22,22
            >> and stated that the (persecuted) ecclesia of Simon Peter in Rome
            >> held the "keys" to interpret Scripture.

            >> The time has passed that Jesus' resurrection was automatically
            >> but ineptly
            >> linked to a supposedly counter-natural, magical removal of a stone
            >> rolled before
            >> the "door' of Jesus' grave. This conception was the result of a long
            >> process of estrangement from the Hebrew tradition. The opening of
            >> tombs was long recognized as a metaphor of divine redemptive action,
            >> by the time Mark wrote his post-70 midrash.
            >

            Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

            cordially,
            Karl

            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.