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Re: [Synoptic-L] Morton Smith's Mark (was...)

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  • Karel Hanhart
    ... Karel: yes, I mean the passion week in Mark ... Karel: The open tomb story is timed on the first day of the weeks (Mk 16,2). I have translated it as
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 6, 2002
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      Tim Reynolds wrote:

      > >
      > >
      > > Tim Reynolds wrote:
      > >
      > >> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
      > >> Time, molad@... writes:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
      > >> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
      > >> line for.
      > >>
      > >> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
      > >> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
      > >> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
      > >> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
      > >> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
      > >> readings, that might help.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
      > >> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
      > >> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
      > >> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
      > >> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
      > >> at the morning mass.
      > >>
      > >> Leonard
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
      > >> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
      > >>
      > >> Tim Reynolds
      > >> Long Beach CA

      on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

      > > But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
      > > Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
      > > probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
      > > prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
      > > re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
      > <snip>

      Tim wrote:

      > By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?

      Karel:
      yes, I mean the passion week in Mark

      Tim:

      > I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.

      Karel:

      The "open tomb" story is timed on the "first day of the weeks" (Mk
      16,2). I have
      translated it as the first day of the (Feast of) Weeks, namely, the
      seven weeks
      of the harvest season of Pentecost. The meaning of the plural "sabbata"
      in Mark
      is a matter of renewed debate, because Mark uses both the plural (f.i.
      when
      timing the first miraclestories, e.g. 1,21) and the singular sabbaton
      meaning
      "sabbath" (e.g. 2,17).

      Tim:

      > By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?

      Karel:

      What the appropriate 'parashot' for the synagogue were at the time can
      not be
      ascertained, as you know. One might only deduce from the Gospels what
      passages
      were relevant to the
      passion story. After 70 CE some readings may have been added, others may
      have
      been subtracted.
      Since Mark in my opinion wrote after 70, I believe Jeremiah may well
      have been
      added because of Jerem. 31,15 "a voice was heard in Ramah,
      lamentation, and
      bitter weeping" (cf Mt 2,18) and the book of Lamentations, because of
      the
      destruction of the first temple.


      > The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
      > early as Jesus.
      >
      > Could you clarify?

      The last part of that phrase "may be as early as Jesus" is highly
      speculative.
      Frankly,
      on second reading, I am surprised I wrote it, for I normally am quite
      cautious
      in
      answering formidable questions re. Mark's rendition of the Pesach meal.
      Mark's
      last
      week of Jesus is clearly a construct; the trial and Getsemane episodes
      serve to
      clarify
      Mark's purposes. They cannot be taken as a historical report.
      However, I take it that historically Jesus was crucified on Passover
      day.
      Moreover,
      I find it worthy of acceptance that early in the post-crucifixion period
      Jesus'
      death
      was interpreted in terms of the Pashal lamb (1 Cor 5,7). And critical
      rigour
      prevents
      me from judging that historically no Pesach meal was held at all or that
      Jesus
      didn't symbolically, by breaking bread, wanted his disciples participate
      in his
      mission as he saw it, however, that should be defined.
      I trust this will clarify my position somewhat.

      cordially

      Karel









      >
      >
      > Best,
      >
      > tim

      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
    • Tim Reynolds
      ... With respect, this understanding of sabbaton seems unnecessary at best. ... I hadn t, thanks. ... I m an historian, so my default position is that texts
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        on 10/6/02 3:09 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

        >
        >
        > Tim Reynolds wrote:
        >
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Tim Reynolds wrote:
        >>>
        >>>> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
        >>>> Time, molad@... writes:
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
        >>>> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
        >>>> line for.
        >>>>
        >>>> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
        >>>> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
        >>>> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
        >>>> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
        >>>> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
        >>>> readings, that might help.
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
        >>>> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
        >>>> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
        >>>> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
        >>>> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
        >>>> at the morning mass.
        >>>>
        >>>> Leonard
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
        >>>> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
        >>>>
        >>>> Tim Reynolds
        >>>> Long Beach CA
        >
        > on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:
        >
        >>> But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
        >>> Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
        >>> probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
        >>> prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
        >>> re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
        >> <snip>
        >
        > Tim wrote:
        >
        >> By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?
        >
        > Karel:
        > yes, I mean the passion week in Mark
        >
        > Tim:
        >
        >> I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.
        >
        > Karel:
        >
        > The "open tomb" story is timed on the "first day of the weeks" (Mk
        > 16,2). I have
        > translated it as the first day of the (Feast of) Weeks, namely, the
        > seven weeks
        > of the harvest season of Pentecost. The meaning of the plural "sabbata"
        > in Mark
        > is a matter of renewed debate, because Mark uses both the plural (f.i.
        > when
        > timing the first miraclestories, e.g. 1,21) and the singular sabbaton
        > meaning
        > "sabbath" (e.g. 2,17).

        With respect, this understanding of sabbaton seems unnecessary at best.

        >
        > Tim:
        >
        >> By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?
        >
        > Karel:
        >
        > What the appropriate 'parashot' for the synagogue were at the time can
        > not be
        > ascertained, as you know.

        I hadn't, thanks.

        > One might only deduce from the Gospels what
        > passages
        > were relevant to the
        > passion story. After 70 CE some readings may have been added, others may
        > have
        > been subtracted.
        > Since Mark in my opinion wrote after 70, I believe Jeremiah may well
        > have been
        > added because of Jerem. 31,15 "a voice was heard in Ramah,
        > lamentation, and
        > bitter weeping" (cf Mt 2,18) and the book of Lamentations, because of
        > the
        > destruction of the first temple.
        >
        >
        >> The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
        >> early as Jesus.
        >>
        >> Could you clarify?
        >
        > The last part of that phrase "may be as early as Jesus" is highly
        > speculative.
        > Frankly,
        > on second reading, I am surprised I wrote it, for I normally am quite
        > cautious
        > in
        > answering formidable questions re. Mark's rendition of the Pesach meal.
        > Mark's
        > last
        > week of Jesus is clearly a construct; the trial and Getsemane episodes
        > serve to
        > clarify
        > Mark's purposes. They cannot be taken as a historical report.
        > However, I take it that historically Jesus was crucified on Passover
        > day.
        > Moreover,
        > I find it worthy of acceptance that early in the post-crucifixion period
        > Jesus'
        > death
        > was interpreted in terms of the Pashal lamb (1 Cor 5,7). And critical
        > rigour
        > prevents
        > me from judging that historically no Pesach meal was held at all or that
        > Jesus
        > didn't symbolically, by breaking bread, wanted his disciples participate
        > in his
        > mission as he saw it, however, that should be defined.
        > I trust this will clarify my position somewhat.

        I'm an historian, so my default position is that texts are provisionally to
        be accepted unless there's some reason not to. So we can't really talk,
        you're doing something else.

        Best,

        tim
        >
        > cordially
        >
        > Karel


        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Tim Reynolds
        ... This understanding of sabbaton strikes me as unnecessary at best. ... I hadn t, thanks. ... I m an historian, so my default position is that texts are to
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          on 10/6/02 3:09 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

          >
          >
          > Tim Reynolds wrote:
          >
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Tim Reynolds wrote:
          >>>
          >>>> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
          >>>> Time, molad@... writes:
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
          >>>> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
          >>>> line for.
          >>>>
          >>>> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
          >>>> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
          >>>> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
          >>>> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
          >>>> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
          >>>> readings, that might help.
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
          >>>> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
          >>>> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
          >>>> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
          >>>> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
          >>>> at the morning mass.
          >>>>
          >>>> Leonard
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
          >>>> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
          >>>>
          >>>> Tim Reynolds
          >>>> Long Beach CA
          >
          > on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:
          >
          >>> But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
          >>> Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
          >>> probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
          >>> prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
          >>> re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
          >> <snip>
          >
          > Tim wrote:
          >
          >> By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?
          >
          > Karel:
          > yes, I mean the passion week in Mark
          >
          > Tim:
          >
          >> I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.
          >
          > Karel:
          >
          > The "open tomb" story is timed on the "first day of the weeks" (Mk
          > 16,2). I have
          > translated it as the first day of the (Feast of) Weeks, namely, the
          > seven weeks
          > of the harvest season of Pentecost. The meaning of the plural "sabbata"
          > in Mark
          > is a matter of renewed debate, because Mark uses both the plural (f.i.
          > when
          > timing the first miraclestories, e.g. 1,21) and the singular sabbaton
          > meaning
          > "sabbath" (e.g. 2,17).

          This understanding of sabbaton strikes me as unnecessary at best.

          >
          > Tim:
          >
          >> By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?
          >
          > Karel:
          >
          > What the appropriate 'parashot' for the synagogue were at the time can
          > not be
          > ascertained, as you know.

          I hadn't, thanks.

          > One might only deduce from the Gospels what
          > passages
          > were relevant to the
          > passion story. After 70 CE some readings may have been added, others may
          > have
          > been subtracted.
          > Since Mark in my opinion wrote after 70, I believe Jeremiah may well
          > have been
          > added because of Jerem. 31,15 "a voice was heard in Ramah,
          > lamentation, and
          > bitter weeping" (cf Mt 2,18) and the book of Lamentations, because of
          > the
          > destruction of the first temple.
          >
          >
          >> The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
          >> early as Jesus.
          >>
          >> Could you clarify?
          >
          > The last part of that phrase "may be as early as Jesus" is highly
          > speculative.
          > Frankly,
          > on second reading, I am surprised I wrote it, for I normally am quite
          > cautious
          > in
          > answering formidable questions re. Mark's rendition of the Pesach meal.
          > Mark's
          > last
          > week of Jesus is clearly a construct; the trial and Getsemane episodes
          > serve to
          > clarify
          > Mark's purposes. They cannot be taken as a historical report.
          > However, I take it that historically Jesus was crucified on Passover
          > day.
          > Moreover,
          > I find it worthy of acceptance that early in the post-crucifixion period
          > Jesus'
          > death
          > was interpreted in terms of the Pashal lamb (1 Cor 5,7). And critical
          > rigour
          > prevents
          > me from judging that historically no Pesach meal was held at all or that
          > Jesus
          > didn't symbolically, by breaking bread, wanted his disciples participate
          > in his
          > mission as he saw it, however, that should be defined.
          > I trust this will clarify my position somewhat.
          >
          > cordially
          >
          > Karel
          >
          >
          I'm an historian, so my default position is that texts are to be
          provisionally accepted unless there's some reason not to. So we can't
          really talk, you're doing something else.

          Best,

          tim


          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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