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Re: [Synoptic-L] The Twelve

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  • Karel Hanhart
    ... Ron, In the above mentioned article, The Structure of John 1,35 - 4,45 in the Festschrift for J.N. Sevenster, I proposed indeed that John referred to the
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 5, 2002
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      > Karel Hanhart wrote:
      >
      > > In fact, I have never read of someone opposing the possibility that
      > >'Nathanael' (God has given) is the Hebrew rendition of Matthew (! - In
      > >Aramaic "gift of JHWH"). In other words the author acknowledges the
      > >existence of the Gospel of Matthew and described some of its typical
      > >Matthean emphases in 1,45f. I defended this interpretation long ago in
      > >the Festschrift for Sevenster, Brill, 1970. It was first suggested by
      > >W. Bauer, Das Johannes Evangelium, Handbuch zum N.T. VI, 1933 (Exkurs
      > >after 1,51).
      >

      Ron Price wrote:


      > Karel,
      > This is an intriguing idea.
      > But I wonder if it should be taken even further. Have you (or anyone
      > else) considered the possibility that Jn 2:43-51 might have coded
      > references to all four gospels?
      > Peter (1:44) is well established and needs no introduction. This could
      > be Mark, the oldest gospel, which was traditionally associated with
      > Peter.
      > Nathanael, as you have pointed out, is Matthew.
      > Philip is a Greek name which could indicate Luke, a gospel probably
      > originating in a Greek-speaking area.
      > "You shall see greater things than these ....." (1:50b-51) could be
      > referring to John's gospel itself.
      >
      > Thus we would have a reference to all four canonical gospels.

      Ron,
      In the above mentioned article, "The Structure of John 1,35 - 4,45" in the
      Festschrift for J.N. Sevenster, I proposed indeed that John referred to the
      three older Gospels in the order of Mark, Matthew, and Luke Acts. As is so
      often the case, no one picked up on this proposal, but no one denied it
      either. The suggestion remained in limbo, because it seemed perhaps too
      simple a solution to the enigmatic statements about the first disciples
      (John 1) and to some aspects of the Synoptic problem. In the only reaction
      to the article, I know of, W.G. Kuemmel dismissed it in a note as a product
      of phantasm (in his revised Introduction to the New Testament; does anyone
      on this list know of a further reaction to my article?).
      The truth is often found in simple answers to difficult problems, such
      as the priority of Mark. In this article I propose, that John 1,41 does
      refer to Mark first. The adverb 'proton' in "(Andrew) 'first' found Simon"
      is a cryptic hint to the beginning of the Jesus' movement: Simon Peter was
      the 'first' human who confessed Jesus as Messiah and Mark reported it first.

      True, in John 1,41 "we have found..." (note the plural we!!) these are
      Andrew's words. However, the flow of thought in John 1 is precisely from
      the 'kosmos' to the 'particular'; from the 'panta' made through the 'Logos'
      (1,3) to the particularity of John the Baptist (1,6) on to the focal point
      in the Gospel story 'and the logos became flesh (1,14). Now Andrew is a
      Greek name par excellence and in Mark 1,16, Andrew, representing the
      non-Judean believers, is presented as the spiritual 'brother of Simon'.
      Both have been baptized and thus are followers of John and as so often in
      John, the salvation of the 'kosmos' is of foremost importance (e.g. John
      3,16).
      Agreed -, this is a complicated, allegorical exegesis. On the other, the
      Nathanael episode clearly points to the Gospel of Matthew. And what
      fascinated me most was that John 2 - 4 seems to refer to Luke-Acts (Eileen
      Guilding). In Acts 1,8 the Galilean apostles must witness in Jerusalem, in
      all of Judea. in Samaria. In John's Gospel the same order is followed.
      Jesus taught in Jerusalem (2,14-3.21 - cleansing of the temple,
      Nicodemus); in Judea (3,22 - 36; in Samaria (4,1-45); and in 4,46 -
      54, the Gentile son of the centurion is healed. The 'first sign - semeion'
      in Cana - the wedding; and this second sign in 'second sign' in Cana appear
      to symbolize the forming of the ecclesia of Judeans and Gentiles.

      cordially

      Karel



      >


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    • Karel Hanhart
      ... Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@bham.ac.uk
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 5, 2002
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        Karel Hanhart wrote:

        > > Karel Hanhart wrote:
        > >
        > > > In fact, I have never read of someone opposing the possibility that
        > > >'Nathanael' (God has given) is the Hebrew rendition of Matthew (! - In
        > > >Aramaic "gift of JHWH"). In other words the author acknowledges the
        > > >existence of the Gospel of Matthew and described some of its typical
        > > >Matthean emphases in 1,45f. I defended this interpretation long ago in
        > > >the Festschrift for Sevenster, Brill, 1970. It was first suggested by
        > > >W. Bauer, Das Johannes Evangelium, Handbuch zum N.T. VI, 1933 (Exkurs
        > > >after 1,51).
        > >
        >
        > Ron Price wrote:
        >
        > > Karel,
        > > This is an intriguing idea.
        > > But I wonder if it should be taken even further. Have you (or anyone
        > > else) considered the possibility that Jn 2:43-51 might have coded
        > > references to all four gospels?
        > > Peter (1:44) is well established and needs no introduction. This could
        > > be Mark, the oldest gospel, which was traditionally associated with
        > > Peter.
        > > Nathanael, as you have pointed out, is Matthew.
        > > Philip is a Greek name which could indicate Luke, a gospel probably
        > > originating in a Greek-speaking area.
        > > "You shall see greater things than these ....." (1:50b-51) could be
        > > referring to John's gospel itself.
        > >
        > > Thus we would have a reference to all four canonical gospels.
        >
        > Ron,
        > In the above mentioned article, "The Structure of John 1,35 - 4,45" in the
        > Festschrift for J.N. Sevenster, I proposed indeed that John referred to the
        > three older Gospels in the order of Mark, Matthew, and Luke Acts. As is so
        > often the case, no one picked up on this proposal, but no one denied it
        > either. The suggestion remained in limbo, because it seemed perhaps too
        > simple a solution to the enigmatic statements about the first disciples
        > (John 1) and to some aspects of the Synoptic problem. In the only reaction
        > to the article, I know of, W.G. Kuemmel dismissed it in a note as a product
        > of phantasm (in his revised Introduction to the New Testament; does anyone
        > on this list know of a further reaction to my article?).
        > The truth is often found in simple answers to difficult problems, such
        > as the priority of Mark. In this article I propose, that John 1,41 does
        > refer to Mark first. The adverb 'proton' in "(Andrew) 'first' found Simon"
        > is a cryptic hint to the beginning of the Jesus' movement: Simon Peter was
        > the 'first' human who confessed Jesus as Messiah and Mark reported it first.
        >
        > True, in John 1,41 "we have found..." (note the plural we!!) these are
        > Andrew's words. However, the flow of thought in John 1 is precisely from
        > the 'kosmos' to the 'particular'; from the 'panta' made through the 'Logos'
        > (1,3) to the particularity of John the Baptist (1,6) on to the focal point
        > in the Gospel story 'and the logos became flesh (1,14). Now Andrew is a
        > Greek name par excellence and in Mark 1,16, Andrew, representing the
        > non-Judean believers, is presented as the spiritual 'brother of Simon'.
        > Both have been baptized and thus are followers of John and as so often in
        > John, the salvation of the 'kosmos' is of foremost importance (e.g. John
        > 3,16).
        > Agreed -, this is a complicated, allegorical exegesis. On the other, the
        > Nathanael episode clearly points to the Gospel of Matthew. And what
        > fascinated me most was that John 2 - 4 seems to refer to Luke-Acts (Eileen
        > Guilding). In Acts 1,8 the Galilean apostles must witness in Jerusalem, in
        > all of Judea. in Samaria. In John's Gospel the same order is followed.
        > Jesus taught in Jerusalem (2,14-3.21 - cleansing of the temple,
        > Nicodemus); in Judea (3,22 - 36; in Samaria (4,1-45); and in 4,46 -
        > 54, the Gentile son of the centurion is healed. The 'first sign - semeion'
        > in Cana - the wedding; and this second sign in 'second sign' in Cana appear
        > to symbolize the forming of the ecclesia of Judeans and Gentiles.
        >
        > cordially
        >
        > Karel
        >
        > >


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