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Re: [Synoptic-L] Morton Smith's Mark (was...)

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  • Tim Reynolds
    on 9/19/02 5:28 PM, Maluflen@aol.com at Maluflen@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/19/2002 3:29:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, molad@earthlink.net writes: ...
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 20, 2002
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      Re: [Synoptic-L] Morton Smith's Mark (was...) on 9/19/02 5:28 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:

      In a message dated 9/19/2002 3:29:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, molad@... writes:



      "... dying, he left his composition to the church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries."  Morton Smith's Clement letter


      Tim, does Smith understand this to mean that Clement thought Mark's Gospel was read to all catechumens in connection with their initiation to the Christian mysteries at baptism? Or does he think Clement is thinking of the initiation of a smaller, elite group of Christians, into a higher form of enlightenment? Without an answer to this question, I am unable to determine whether one should understand this letter, assuming its authenticity, as supporting my view of GMk or as challenging it.

      Leonard Maluf


      By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to baptism.  That's what advanced catechumens are in line for.

      If Mk was read over a period of time (up to Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the length of the readings?  The Lk Lacuna would make one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed readings, that might help.

      Tim Reynolds
      Long Beach CA
    • Maluflen@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single sitting , perhaps during an
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 20, 2002
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        In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, molad@... writes:


        By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to baptism.  That's what advanced catechumens are in line for.

        If Mk was read over a period of time (up to Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the length of the readings?  The Lk Lacuna would make one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed readings, that might help.



        I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read at the morning mass.

        Leonard
      • Tim Reynolds
        on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@aol.com at Maluflen@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, molad@earthlink.net writes: By
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 21, 2002
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          Re: [Synoptic-L] Morton Smith's Mark (was...) on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:

          In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, molad@... writes:


          By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to baptism.  That's what advanced catechumens are in line for.

          If Mk was read over a period of time (up to Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the length of the readings?  The Lk Lacuna would make one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed readings, that might help.



          I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read at the morning mass.

          Leonard


          That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going on.  How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?

          Tim Reynolds
          Long Beach CA
        • Karel Hanhart
          ... But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of Jesus life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn t it probable that
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 28, 2002
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            Tim Reynolds wrote:

            > on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
            > Time, molad@... writes:
            >
            >
            >
            > By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
            > baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
            > line for.
            >
            > If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
            > Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
            > that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
            > length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
            > one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
            > readings, that might help.
            >
            >
            > I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
            > "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
            > ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
            > assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
            > (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
            > at the morning mass.
            >
            > Leonard
            >
            >
            > That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
            > on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
            >
            > Tim Reynolds
            > Long Beach CA

            But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
            Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
            probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
            prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
            re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?

            cordially,

            Karel


            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • Tim Reynolds
            ... I m sorry to be so slow. By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff? I don t see how Pentacost comes into this. By prescribed portions do you mean the
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 30, 2002
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              on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > Tim Reynolds wrote:
              >
              >> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
              >> Time, molad@... writes:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
              >> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
              >> line for.
              >>
              >> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
              >> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
              >> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
              >> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
              >> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
              >> readings, that might help.
              >>
              >>
              >> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
              >> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
              >> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
              >> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
              >> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
              >> at the morning mass.
              >>
              >> Leonard
              >>
              >>
              >> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
              >> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
              >>
              >> Tim Reynolds
              >> Long Beach CA
              >
              > But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
              > Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
              > probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
              > prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
              > re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
              >
              > cordially,
              >
              > Karel
              >
              I'm sorry to be so slow.

              By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?

              I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.

              By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?

              The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
              early as Jesus.

              Could you clarify?

              Best,

              tim


              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • Karel Hanhart
              ... Karel: yes, I mean the passion week in Mark ... Karel: The open tomb story is timed on the first day of the weeks (Mk 16,2). I have translated it as
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 6, 2002
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                Tim Reynolds wrote:

                > >
                > >
                > > Tim Reynolds wrote:
                > >
                > >> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
                > >> Time, molad@... writes:
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
                > >> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
                > >> line for.
                > >>
                > >> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
                > >> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
                > >> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
                > >> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
                > >> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
                > >> readings, that might help.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
                > >> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
                > >> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
                > >> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
                > >> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
                > >> at the morning mass.
                > >>
                > >> Leonard
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
                > >> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
                > >>
                > >> Tim Reynolds
                > >> Long Beach CA

                on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

                > > But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
                > > Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
                > > probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
                > > prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
                > > re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
                > <snip>

                Tim wrote:

                > By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?

                Karel:
                yes, I mean the passion week in Mark

                Tim:

                > I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.

                Karel:

                The "open tomb" story is timed on the "first day of the weeks" (Mk
                16,2). I have
                translated it as the first day of the (Feast of) Weeks, namely, the
                seven weeks
                of the harvest season of Pentecost. The meaning of the plural "sabbata"
                in Mark
                is a matter of renewed debate, because Mark uses both the plural (f.i.
                when
                timing the first miraclestories, e.g. 1,21) and the singular sabbaton
                meaning
                "sabbath" (e.g. 2,17).

                Tim:

                > By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?

                Karel:

                What the appropriate 'parashot' for the synagogue were at the time can
                not be
                ascertained, as you know. One might only deduce from the Gospels what
                passages
                were relevant to the
                passion story. After 70 CE some readings may have been added, others may
                have
                been subtracted.
                Since Mark in my opinion wrote after 70, I believe Jeremiah may well
                have been
                added because of Jerem. 31,15 "a voice was heard in Ramah,
                lamentation, and
                bitter weeping" (cf Mt 2,18) and the book of Lamentations, because of
                the
                destruction of the first temple.


                > The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
                > early as Jesus.
                >
                > Could you clarify?

                The last part of that phrase "may be as early as Jesus" is highly
                speculative.
                Frankly,
                on second reading, I am surprised I wrote it, for I normally am quite
                cautious
                in
                answering formidable questions re. Mark's rendition of the Pesach meal.
                Mark's
                last
                week of Jesus is clearly a construct; the trial and Getsemane episodes
                serve to
                clarify
                Mark's purposes. They cannot be taken as a historical report.
                However, I take it that historically Jesus was crucified on Passover
                day.
                Moreover,
                I find it worthy of acceptance that early in the post-crucifixion period
                Jesus'
                death
                was interpreted in terms of the Pashal lamb (1 Cor 5,7). And critical
                rigour
                prevents
                me from judging that historically no Pesach meal was held at all or that
                Jesus
                didn't symbolically, by breaking bread, wanted his disciples participate
                in his
                mission as he saw it, however, that should be defined.
                I trust this will clarify my position somewhat.

                cordially

                Karel









                >
                >
                > Best,
                >
                > tim

                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • Tim Reynolds
                ... With respect, this understanding of sabbaton seems unnecessary at best. ... I hadn t, thanks. ... I m an historian, so my default position is that texts
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
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                  on 10/6/02 3:09 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Tim Reynolds wrote:
                  >
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Tim Reynolds wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>>> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
                  >>>> Time, molad@... writes:
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
                  >>>> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
                  >>>> line for.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
                  >>>> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
                  >>>> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
                  >>>> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
                  >>>> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
                  >>>> readings, that might help.
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
                  >>>> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
                  >>>> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
                  >>>> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
                  >>>> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
                  >>>> at the morning mass.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Leonard
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
                  >>>> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Tim Reynolds
                  >>>> Long Beach CA
                  >
                  > on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:
                  >
                  >>> But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
                  >>> Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
                  >>> probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
                  >>> prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
                  >>> re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
                  >> <snip>
                  >
                  > Tim wrote:
                  >
                  >> By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?
                  >
                  > Karel:
                  > yes, I mean the passion week in Mark
                  >
                  > Tim:
                  >
                  >> I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.
                  >
                  > Karel:
                  >
                  > The "open tomb" story is timed on the "first day of the weeks" (Mk
                  > 16,2). I have
                  > translated it as the first day of the (Feast of) Weeks, namely, the
                  > seven weeks
                  > of the harvest season of Pentecost. The meaning of the plural "sabbata"
                  > in Mark
                  > is a matter of renewed debate, because Mark uses both the plural (f.i.
                  > when
                  > timing the first miraclestories, e.g. 1,21) and the singular sabbaton
                  > meaning
                  > "sabbath" (e.g. 2,17).

                  With respect, this understanding of sabbaton seems unnecessary at best.

                  >
                  > Tim:
                  >
                  >> By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?
                  >
                  > Karel:
                  >
                  > What the appropriate 'parashot' for the synagogue were at the time can
                  > not be
                  > ascertained, as you know.

                  I hadn't, thanks.

                  > One might only deduce from the Gospels what
                  > passages
                  > were relevant to the
                  > passion story. After 70 CE some readings may have been added, others may
                  > have
                  > been subtracted.
                  > Since Mark in my opinion wrote after 70, I believe Jeremiah may well
                  > have been
                  > added because of Jerem. 31,15 "a voice was heard in Ramah,
                  > lamentation, and
                  > bitter weeping" (cf Mt 2,18) and the book of Lamentations, because of
                  > the
                  > destruction of the first temple.
                  >
                  >
                  >> The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
                  >> early as Jesus.
                  >>
                  >> Could you clarify?
                  >
                  > The last part of that phrase "may be as early as Jesus" is highly
                  > speculative.
                  > Frankly,
                  > on second reading, I am surprised I wrote it, for I normally am quite
                  > cautious
                  > in
                  > answering formidable questions re. Mark's rendition of the Pesach meal.
                  > Mark's
                  > last
                  > week of Jesus is clearly a construct; the trial and Getsemane episodes
                  > serve to
                  > clarify
                  > Mark's purposes. They cannot be taken as a historical report.
                  > However, I take it that historically Jesus was crucified on Passover
                  > day.
                  > Moreover,
                  > I find it worthy of acceptance that early in the post-crucifixion period
                  > Jesus'
                  > death
                  > was interpreted in terms of the Pashal lamb (1 Cor 5,7). And critical
                  > rigour
                  > prevents
                  > me from judging that historically no Pesach meal was held at all or that
                  > Jesus
                  > didn't symbolically, by breaking bread, wanted his disciples participate
                  > in his
                  > mission as he saw it, however, that should be defined.
                  > I trust this will clarify my position somewhat.

                  I'm an historian, so my default position is that texts are provisionally to
                  be accepted unless there's some reason not to. So we can't really talk,
                  you're doing something else.

                  Best,

                  tim
                  >
                  > cordially
                  >
                  > Karel


                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • Tim Reynolds
                  ... This understanding of sabbaton strikes me as unnecessary at best. ... I hadn t, thanks. ... I m an historian, so my default position is that texts are to
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
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                    on 10/6/02 3:09 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Tim Reynolds wrote:
                    >
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Tim Reynolds wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>> on 9/20/02 4:31 PM, Maluflen@... at Maluflen@... wrote:
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> In a message dated 9/20/2002 1:18:02 PM Pacific Daylight
                    >>>> Time, molad@... writes:
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> By "mysteries", I'm quite sure he was referring to
                    >>>> baptism. That's what advanced catechumens are in
                    >>>> line for.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> If Mk was read over a period of time (up to
                    >>>> Epiphany, I believe, which was Jesus' birthday at
                    >>>> that time), shouldn't we be able to figure out the
                    >>>> length of the readings? The Lk Lacuna would make
                    >>>> one, or two, or three, or maybe four missed
                    >>>> readings, that might help.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I always thought of Mark as intended for reading at a single
                    >>>> "sitting", perhaps during an Easter vigil Baptismal
                    >>>> ceremony, to be followed by Easter morning mass, with the
                    >>>> assumption that existing stories of resurrection appearances
                    >>>> (from the last chapters of Matt and/or Luke) would be read
                    >>>> at the morning mass.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Leonard
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> That makes good sense, although I don't think that was what was going
                    >>>> on. How long does it take to read Mk at one sitting?
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Tim Reynolds
                    >>>> Long Beach CA
                    >
                    > on 9/28/02 4:33 AM, Karel Hanhart at K.Hanhart@... wrote:
                    >
                    >>> But how about only the passion story itself covering the last week of
                    >>> Jesus' life, read at Passover and the first day of Pentecost? Isn't it
                    >>> probable that in the ecclesia the prescribed portions of Torah and the
                    >>> prophets were read during the time of Pesach as well as the passionstory
                    >>> re the death of Jesus compared with that of the Passover lamb?
                    >> <snip>
                    >
                    > Tim wrote:
                    >
                    >> By passion story you mean Mk11.1 ff?
                    >
                    > Karel:
                    > yes, I mean the passion week in Mark
                    >
                    > Tim:
                    >
                    >> I don't see how Pentacost comes into this.
                    >
                    > Karel:
                    >
                    > The "open tomb" story is timed on the "first day of the weeks" (Mk
                    > 16,2). I have
                    > translated it as the first day of the (Feast of) Weeks, namely, the
                    > seven weeks
                    > of the harvest season of Pentecost. The meaning of the plural "sabbata"
                    > in Mark
                    > is a matter of renewed debate, because Mark uses both the plural (f.i.
                    > when
                    > timing the first miraclestories, e.g. 1,21) and the singular sabbaton
                    > meaning
                    > "sabbath" (e.g. 2,17).

                    This understanding of sabbaton strikes me as unnecessary at best.

                    >
                    > Tim:
                    >
                    >> By "prescribed portions" do you mean the appropriate parashot?
                    >
                    > Karel:
                    >
                    > What the appropriate 'parashot' for the synagogue were at the time can
                    > not be
                    > ascertained, as you know.

                    I hadn't, thanks.

                    > One might only deduce from the Gospels what
                    > passages
                    > were relevant to the
                    > passion story. After 70 CE some readings may have been added, others may
                    > have
                    > been subtracted.
                    > Since Mark in my opinion wrote after 70, I believe Jeremiah may well
                    > have been
                    > added because of Jerem. 31,15 "a voice was heard in Ramah,
                    > lamentation, and
                    > bitter weeping" (cf Mt 2,18) and the book of Lamentations, because of
                    > the
                    > destruction of the first temple.
                    >
                    >
                    >> The equation of Jesus and the pesach lamb was certainly very early, maybe as
                    >> early as Jesus.
                    >>
                    >> Could you clarify?
                    >
                    > The last part of that phrase "may be as early as Jesus" is highly
                    > speculative.
                    > Frankly,
                    > on second reading, I am surprised I wrote it, for I normally am quite
                    > cautious
                    > in
                    > answering formidable questions re. Mark's rendition of the Pesach meal.
                    > Mark's
                    > last
                    > week of Jesus is clearly a construct; the trial and Getsemane episodes
                    > serve to
                    > clarify
                    > Mark's purposes. They cannot be taken as a historical report.
                    > However, I take it that historically Jesus was crucified on Passover
                    > day.
                    > Moreover,
                    > I find it worthy of acceptance that early in the post-crucifixion period
                    > Jesus'
                    > death
                    > was interpreted in terms of the Pashal lamb (1 Cor 5,7). And critical
                    > rigour
                    > prevents
                    > me from judging that historically no Pesach meal was held at all or that
                    > Jesus
                    > didn't symbolically, by breaking bread, wanted his disciples participate
                    > in his
                    > mission as he saw it, however, that should be defined.
                    > I trust this will clarify my position somewhat.
                    >
                    > cordially
                    >
                    > Karel
                    >
                    >
                    I'm an historian, so my default position is that texts are to be
                    provisionally accepted unless there's some reason not to. So we can't
                    really talk, you're doing something else.

                    Best,

                    tim


                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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