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Re: [Synoptic-L] Did Mark reject the Lord's Prayer ?

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... Umm .. this seems to me to be petitio principii in that the premise beginning with surely has not been established, has it?. ... But **is** the Lucan
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 12, 2002
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      Ron Price wrote:

      > In _The Case Against Q_, p.30, Mark Goodacre argues that every part of
      > this prayer was congenial to Mark, so he wouldn't have omitted it, so
      > this supports the view that Mark was not dependent on Matthew.
      >
      > One problem here is that if Luke recited the prayer in his own
      > tradition (as Mark Goodacre claims on p.64), surely Mark would have at
      > least known it from other people's recitation in *his* tradition. In
      > that case, he must have rejected at least an oral version.

      Umm .. this seems to me to be petitio principii in that the premise
      beginning with "surely" has not been established, has it?.

      > But more important is the question of whether Mark really would have
      > accepted it in its original (approx. Lukan) form.

      But **is** the Lucan form original?

      > I suggest that he
      > wouldn't because he understood its original meaning, which was in effect
      > a plea that God would intervene to destroy Roman power and give freedom
      > to Israel.

      Excuse me, but what? How do you get this as the meaning of the LP -- even
      if, as I have argued here and elsewhere (see BTB) that it is not -- the LP
      is, as Jeremias and others have claimed, an "eschatological prayer"?

      > Even Luke may have recognized this, but as Mark correctly
      > points out elsewhere in his book (p.110f.), Luke has set the Lord's
      > Prayer in a context of sayings about prayer. This, I suggest, could have
      > been done deliberately to divert his readers from the political
      > connection.

      Assuming it has one in the first place. And even if it does, why must you
      follow the bifurcating line laid out by Eisler and Brandon that to be
      political, Jesus and the intent of the LP must be "zealotic"?

      > Of course, as Mark Goodacre also points out (p.30 again), Mark's
      > gospel accepts that the kingdom of God is at hand, and various parables
      > about the kingdom. But these do not indicate so clearly a coming
      > dramatic event, and so are more easily perceived as something innocuous,
      > such as the triumph of good over evil at a personal level in people's
      > hearts.
      >
      > So did Mark omit the Lord's Prayer altogether?
      > Certainly not! He knew a useful saying when he saw one. Firstly he
      > summarized what he saw as its most important message in 11:25. Then he
      > incorporated the bit about temptation in Jesus' instruction to Peter in
      > 14:38.
      >

      All this may indicate is, as Goulder and Taussig have argued, that the LP as
      we know it is a **post Jesus construction**, put together by a later
      redactor from individual and originally separate petitions that Jesus
      uttered not as we have them now in the LP, but on different occasions.

      >
      > Finally, returning to the quotation from Sanders and Davies, and
      > having seen that there is a rational exlanation for Mark's omission of
      > the Lord's Prayer in its original form, we see that an obstacle has been
      > removed from the idea that Mark had access to the sayings source. The
      > more I look at Mark's cavalier treatment of the sayings he *does*
      > preserve, the more it becomes obvious that he would have had ample
      > reason to reject many of the sayings, especially those tied to a Jewish
      > outlook. There is no need at all to invoke Sanders and Davies'
      > opponents' "space for verbal expansion".
      >

      One has to buy into your premises first to accept this conclusion. I for one
      do not think they are as solidly established as you believe. And if not,
      neither is your conclusion based on them.

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Floor 1
      Chicago, Illinois 60626
      e-mail jgibson000@...
      jgibson000@...



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    • Thomas R. W. Longstaff
      At 06:47 PM 6/12/2002 +0100, you wrote: In _Studying the Synoptic Gospels_, p.82, Sanders and Davies wrote: One of the principal objections to the view that
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 12, 2002
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        At 06:47 PM 6/12/2002 +0100, you wrote:
        In _Studying the Synoptic Gospels_, p.82, Sanders and Davies wrote:

        "One of the principal objections to the view that Mark copied Matthew is
        that he would not have omitted the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitudes just
        to give space for verbal expansion of pericopes. But if he knew Q, that
        is just what he did."

        There is a problem here that I've written about often (and Ed Sanders and I
        have debated since we were graduate students together) and that is the
        assumption that if Mark copied Matthew (and or Luke) he intended to replace
        those earlier gospels with his own. But if Mark wrote to supplement rather
        than replace, to address a different audience with different concerns but
        with the knowledge and understanding that Matthew and Luke would continue
        to exist and to be read there is no reason to believe that he would be
        under any constraint to include everything in his sources (few authors,
        after all, do so). Indeed, this applies to any synoptic solution. If Mark
        knew Q and did not include such things as the Lord's Prayer or the
        Beatitudes it may have been because he knew that those important texts
        would still be available to his readers. Must we assume that Mark thought
        that his readers would have access to no other traditions than his gospel?
        I don't think so.

        I don't find it a telling argument at all that if Mark copied Matthew (or
        knew Q) he could not have omitted the Lord's Prayer. Is there any reason to
        believe that he thought that he had access to sources (Matthew or Q) that
        would not be available to his readers and that, therefore, he had to
        include everything? I think it far more likely that, on any solution to the
        synoptic problem, the later authors probably understood that the earlier
        gospels would be available to the church.

        If Mark knew the Lord's Prayer why did he omit it? That is, I think, a
        question that could be answered if one were willing to try and not simply
        to make that a rhetorical question in an argument for the priority of Mark.
        It is, after all, not a rhetorical question that leads logically to the
        conclusion that Mark could not have know a source that included this
        prayer. We may find ways to understand this omission, especially if we
        entertain the idea that it would not, therefore, be lost forever. On the
        conventional view, do scholars argue that Matthew and Luke, having used
        Mark, assumed that all copies of Mark could now be thrown away? I doubt
        that. How can one argue both that Mark is a document respected enough to be
        copied faithfully and yet unimportant enough so that it could then be
        thrown away? On alternative views, how could one argue that Matthew (or
        even Q) was a document respected enough to be copied faithfully and yet
        unimportant enough so that it could then be thrown away?

        And if you are tempted to say, but Q was thrown away realize too that this
        is equally an argument against the Q hypothesis.

        Look what happened to Tatian's Diatessaron.

        Dr. Thomas R. W. Longstaff
        Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies
        Director, Jewish Studies
        Colby College
        4643 Mayflower Hill
        Waterville, ME 04901
        Telephone: (207) 872-3150
        FAX: (207) 872-3802
        Email: tlongst@...


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      • John Lupia
        Thomas R. W. Longstaff But if Mark wrote to supplement rather than replace, to address a different audience with different concerns but with the knowledge and
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 12, 2002
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          Thomas R. W. Longstaff
          But if Mark wrote to supplement rather than replace,
          to address a different audience with different
          concerns but with the knowledge and understanding that
          Matthew and Luke would continue to exist and to be
          read there is no reason to believe that he would be
          under any constraint to include everything in his
          sources (few authors, after all, do so).

          Dear Thomas,

          I have reasoned along similar lines. Mark's Gospel
          seems to be a compendium of the previous Gospels that
          suited some purpose, perhaps, as a an inexpensive
          portable compact edition published for those in
          missionary activity. Those engaged in this activity
          were churchmen who already knew the Our Father and
          would certainly teach it as part of basic instruction.
          This is a basic prayer that everyone learned during
          their early years for those born into Christianity.
          Marks' historical context would include the first and
          second generation cohorts of those born Christian.
          The same can be said for the Beatitudes, a set of
          theologically poetic sayings that address the core of
          the Christian spirit which were certainly learned by
          rote coupled with catechetical instructions. Once the
          proselytes entered the Church they heard read the
          other three Gospels developing their knowledge of the
          teachings of Jesus from the platform provided by Mark
          and the additional instructions given by their first
          catechetical teachers.

          With warm regards,
          John


          =====
          John N. Lupia
          501 North Avenue B-1
          Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA

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        • Ken Olson
          ... predecessors so that the rather complicated redactional practices of Luke can be unravelled!)
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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            On Thursday, June 13, Dr. Peter M. head wrote:

            >>(Perhaps the FGH needs the continued existence of the
            predecessors so that the rather complicated redactional practices of Luke
            can be unravelled!)<<

            Peter,

            What "complicated redactional practices" are these? On the level of
            physical techniques of
            composition, it seems to me that the FGH does not have to assume the
            evangelists used any techniques
            beyond those assumed by, e.g., Streeter on the 2DH. The reverse, however,
            is not true.

            Best Wishes,

            Ken

            kaolson@...

            Kenneth A. Olson
            Graduate Teaching Assistant
            University of Maryland
            Department of History
            2115 Francis Scott Key Hall
            College Park, MD 20742-7315


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          • Peter M. Head
            At 03:04 PM 6/12/02 -0400, Thomas R. W. Longstaff wrote: I think it far more likely that, on any solution to the synoptic problem, the later authors probably
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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              At 03:04 PM 6/12/02 -0400, Thomas R. W. Longstaff wrote:
              "I think it far more likely that, on any solution to the synoptic problem,
              the later authors probably understood that the earlier gospels would be
              available to the church."

              I doubt this is true. There have been significant GH positions which see
              Mark as reactionary (against Matt and Luke). It is certainly not obvious
              (assuming 2SH) that Matthew would think of the continued need for Mark; and
              the fact that Q faded out so quickly after its incorporation into Matt and
              Luke suggests (to those convinced of its original existence) that it was no
              longer required (or its community lost influence or was incorporated into
              the M group). (Perhaps the FGH needs the continued existence of the
              predecessors so that the rather complicated redactional practices of Luke
              can be unravelled!)

              Peter


              Peter M. Head, PhD
              Research Fellow
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
              566607
              Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
              http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm


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            • Thomas R. W. Longstaff
              ... Well that might well be true but there is another option as well. I admit that the process is simpler if you can posit a document that you don t have (like
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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                At 10:53 AM 6/13/2002 +0100, Peter M. Head wrote:

                >(Perhaps the FGH needs the continued existence of the predecessors so that
                >the rather complicated redactional practices of Luke can be unravelled!)

                Well that might well be true but there is another option as well. I admit
                that the process is simpler if you can posit a document that you don't have
                (like Q) and then just adjust the definition of that document to simplify
                the hypothesis in which it is a key element. It has been fascinating to
                watch Q grow from a hypothetical document to explain the agreements between
                Matthew and Luke in material not found in Mark into a document that we can
                now cite by chapter and verse and on which redaction critical studies can
                be conducted. We can now even discuss the way Mark modified Q. If, as some
                have noted, Q is what you make it, it does mean that there are far less
                complicated processes to unravel. Maybe Peter prefers prefer weaving a new
                fabric of his own to unraveling rather complicated redactional practices.
                That works too.


                Dr. Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies
                Director, Jewish Studies
                Colby College
                4643 Mayflower Hill
                Waterville, ME 04901
                Telephone: (207) 872-3150
                FAX: (207) 872-3802
                Email: tlongst@...


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              • Ron Price
                ... Jeffrey, True. But neither has Mark Goodacre s premise that Luke recited the Lord s Prayer in his own tradition. My argument here is simply that *if* it is
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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                  I wrote:

                  >> In _The Case Against Q_, p.30, Mark Goodacre argues that every part of
                  >> this prayer was congenial to Mark, so he wouldn't have omitted it, so
                  >> this supports the view that Mark was not dependent on Matthew.
                  >>
                  >> One problem here is that if Luke recited the prayer in his own
                  >> tradition (as Mark Goodacre claims on p.64), surely Mark would have at
                  >> least known it from other people's recitation in *his* tradition. In
                  >> that case, he must have rejected at least an oral version.

                  Jeffrey Gibson replied:

                  >Umm .. this seems to me to be petitio principii in that the premise
                  >beginning with "surely" has not been established, has it?.

                  Jeffrey,
                  True. But neither has Mark Goodacre's premise that Luke recited the
                  Lord's Prayer in his own tradition. My argument here is simply that *if*
                  it is reasonable to posit recitation in Luke's tradition, it is also
                  reasonable to posit recitation in Mark's tradition. Actually I doubt
                  whether either was the case.

                  >> But more important is the question of whether Mark really would have
                  >> accepted it in its original (approx. Lukan) form.

                  >But **is** the Lucan form original?

                  By "original" I meant the form in which it appeared in the early
                  sayings source. In this sense Q scholars usually take the Lukan form as
                  more original.

                  >> ..... [Mark] understood its original meaning, which was in effect
                  >> a plea that God would intervene to destroy Roman power and give freedom
                  >> to Israel.

                  >Excuse me, but what? How do you get this as the meaning of the LP

                  Apologies for my wording above, which was imprecise. I meant to refer
                  to the meaning of one clause only, namely: "May your kingdom come". My
                  argument is that because of this clause, Mark didn't incorporate the
                  prayer as it stands.

                  In a recent Corpus-Paul posting, Hyam Maccoby, describing one of two
                  types of eschatology in Judaism, wrote: "The 'days of the Messiah' will
                  take place on
                  earth, and will represent the fulfilment of the potentialities of this
                  world
                  and of the human race. Its leader will therefore be a human being, the
                  Messiah son of David."
                  The label "Messiah" (Christ) is closely associated with Jesus in the
                  earliest indisputable testimony (Paul's letters), and the phrase
                  "kingdom of God" was frequently on the lips of Jesus. Thus we can
                  reasonably assume there is a connection between kingdom and Messiah, and
                  the phrase "kingdom of God" is an apt label for what Hyam described. To
                  first century Jews, the establishment of God's kingdom on earth ruled by
                  a Messiah-king must necessarily have involved the overthrow of the Roman
                  authorities occupying Israel. Hence the political implications of "May
                  your kingdom come".

                  > ..... why must you
                  >follow the bifurcating line laid out by Eisler and Brandon that to be
                  >political, Jesus and the intent of the LP must be "zealotic"?

                  I'm not saying that it's necessarily "zealotic". I doubt whether Jesus
                  expected the kingdom to be established by an army of Zealots, for there
                  is little evidence that he himself was a Zealot. It seems more likely
                  that he had in mind some divine intervention which would miraculously
                  establish the kingdom.

                  >> So did Mark omit the Lord's Prayer altogether?
                  >> Certainly not! He knew a useful saying when he saw one. Firstly he
                  >> summarized what he saw as its most important message in 11:25. Then he
                  >> incorporated the bit about temptation in Jesus' instruction to Peter in
                  >> 14:38.

                  >All this may indicate is, as Goulder and Taussig have argued, that the LP as
                  >we know it is a **post Jesus construction**, put together by a later
                  >redactor from individual and originally separate petitions that Jesus
                  >uttered not as we have them now in the LP, but on different occasions.

                  That's possible.
                  But I'm consciously reversing Goulder's argument. For whereas he
                  suggested that Matthew created the LP from assorted verses in Mark
                  (_Luke: A New Paradigm_, p.496), I'm suggesting that Mark broke up the
                  LP he found in the early sayings source, rejecting part of it and
                  splitting up the rest to suit his narrative. However I concede that on
                  my hypothesis the LP may have been redacted prior to its incorporation
                  in the early sayings source. Thus I wouldn't necessarily deny that the
                  LP is a "post Jesus construction".

                  Ron Price

                  Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                  e-mail: ron.price@...

                  Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


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                • Ron Price
                  ... Thomas, We agree that Mark knew the Lord s Prayer, yet declined to incorporate it in his gospel. But that s about as far as the agreement goes. If Mark had
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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                    I wrote:

                    >> In _Studying the Synoptic Gospels_, p.82, Sanders and Davies wrote:
                    >>
                    >>"One of the principal objections to the view that Mark copied Matthew is
                    >>that he would not have omitted the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitudes just
                    >>to give space for verbal expansion of pericopes. But if he knew Q, that
                    >>is just what he did."

                    Thomas Longstaff replied:

                    >There is a problem here that I've written about often (and Ed Sanders and I
                    >have debated since we were graduate students together) and that is the
                    >assumption that if Mark copied Matthew (and or Luke) he intended to replace
                    >those earlier gospels with his own. But if Mark wrote to supplement rather
                    >than replace, to address a different audience with different concerns but
                    >with the knowledge and understanding that Matthew and Luke would continue
                    >to exist and to be read there is no reason to believe that he would be
                    >under any constraint to include everything in his sources (few authors,
                    >after all, do so). Indeed, this applies to any synoptic solution. .....

                    Thomas,

                    We agree that Mark knew the Lord's Prayer, yet declined to incorporate
                    it in his gospel.

                    But that's about as far as the agreement goes.
                    If Mark had access to a copy of the Lord's Prayer and respected it, he
                    could easily have fitted it in if space was limited by omitting or
                    abbreviating a healing or a feeding. The suggestion that Mark wrote to
                    supplement previous gospels just doesn't hold water when we observe that
                    only 6% of Mark is not in either Matthew or Luke. So only 6% of Mark is
                    supplementary in the Griesbach scenario. Moreover the omission of that
                    6% is relatively easy to explain on the basis that Mark was the source
                    for the other two synoptics (Davies & Allison, _Matthew 1_ pp.108-109).

                    Ron Price

                    Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                    e-mail: ron.price@...

                    Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


                    Ron Price

                    Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                    e-mail: ron.price@...

                    Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


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                  • Maluflen@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/13/2002 10:59:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Ron, you can t seem to get beyond the point of viewing Synoptic stuff in purely material
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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                      In a message dated 6/13/2002 10:59:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ron.price@... writes:


                      If Mark had access to a copy of the Lord's Prayer and respected it, he
                      could easily have fitted it in if space was limited by omitting or
                      abbreviating a healing or a feeding. The suggestion that Mark wrote to
                      supplement previous gospels just doesn't hold water when we observe that
                      only 6% of Mark is not in either Matthew or Luke. So only 6% of Mark is
                      supplementary in the Griesbach scenario. Moreover the omission of that
                      6% is relatively easy to explain on the basis that Mark was the source
                      for the other two synoptics (Davies & Allison, _Matthew 1_ pp.108-109).


                      Ron, you can't seem to get beyond the point of viewing Synoptic stuff in purely material terms. Don't you see that "supplementary" need not have to do with the idea of supplying material not found in another gospel? Can you for a moment stop being a pedantic source critic and allow entrance to a slightly broader view of literary criticism? If Mark had not added a single material item to the tradition, a late Mark could still make perfectly good sense from a literary point of view. Mark may well have intended to "supplement" Matthew and Luke by adding, for example, a dramatic dimension to the story of Jesus' ministry (as it moved inexorably toward a climactic death on the cross) and a street language feel to a previously literary tradition for the benefit of a less educated audience. These are all perfectly valid and perfectly reasonable justifications for a late Mark that function at a text-pragmatic level and have nothing at all to do with supplementation at the level of material contribution. The fact that the point is entirely missed by so many standard New Testament introductions does not a thing to diminish its validity.

                      Leonard Maluf
                    • Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                      At 06:31 PM 6/13/2002 +0100, Ron Price wrote: Without including all of the previous discussion, let me respond to Ron. ... True. ... Almost true but not quite.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 13, 2002
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                        At 06:31 PM 6/13/2002 +0100, Ron Price wrote:

                        Without including all of the previous discussion, let me respond to Ron.

                        >Thomas,
                        >
                        > We agree that Mark knew the Lord's Prayer, yet declined to incorporate
                        >it in his gospel.

                        True.

                        > But that's about as far as the agreement goes.

                        Almost true but not quite.

                        > If Mark had access to a copy of the Lord's Prayer and respected it, he
                        >could easily have fitted it in if space was limited by omitting or
                        >abbreviating a healing or a feeding. The suggestion that Mark wrote to
                        >supplement previous gospels just doesn't hold water when we observe that
                        >only 6% of Mark is not in either Matthew or Luke. So only 6% of Mark is
                        >supplementary in the Griesbach scenario. Moreover the omission of that
                        >6% is relatively easy to explain on the basis that Mark was the source
                        >for the other two synoptics (Davies & Allison, _Matthew 1_ pp.108-109).

                        As I have argued in several publications there are a plurality of reasons
                        why a secondary author will undertake to write again something that has
                        already been written. The secondary author might write to replace, to
                        supplement, to correct, to set the materials in a different context or to
                        use them to address different issues, to address a different audience, etc.
                        While I do think that Mark wrote to supplement the earlier gospels I don't
                        think that he wrote only to supplement them.

                        And we agree on one more point. We agree that "if Mark had access to a copy
                        of the Lord's Prayer and respected it, he could easily have fitted it in if
                        space was limited by omitting or abbreviating a healing or a feeding." But
                        this does little more than suggest that Mark's reason for omitting the
                        Lord's Prayer was not due to limited space. As I said, I agree with that.
                        But all that follows is that, if Mark knew the Lord's Prayer he had some
                        other reason for omitting it. As an aside, I am not sure why you suggest
                        only this reason, shortage of space, as a possible explanation for Mark's
                        omission. Do you have some reason for highlighting that possible reason
                        among the many that might be suggested?

                        I think that the suggestion that Mark wrote to supplement the other Gospels
                        does, in fact, "hold water," despite the evidence that you offer to the
                        contrary. If one understands the concept of "supplementing," as I would, to
                        include setting the materials in a different context for a different
                        audience then I think that the idea does make sense. To consider only one
                        example (of far too many to list here but which have been discussed many,
                        many times) let me refer to the so-called "Why do you call me good?"
                        pericope (a title which assumes the Markan form of this narrative). In
                        Matthew a person comes to Jesus with a question about the Torah, "Teacher,
                        what good must I do to inherit eternal life?" In the subsequent dialogue
                        Jesus addresses the issue of Torah observance and what more is required.
                        Most people recognize that Christological concerns are an important element
                        in the gospel of Mark. When we turn to the Markan version of the story we
                        find that Mark treats two questions. The first is a Christological
                        question. Jesus is addressed as "Good Teacher" and the issue becomes that
                        of who is properly called "good." No one is good but God. Then Jesus
                        changes the subject (almost abruptly) and turns to the issue of Torah
                        observance and what more might be required. In Mark it is not clear, as it
                        is in Matthew, that the questioner has asked about Torah. He has simply
                        asked what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus' further response in
                        Mark seems to assume the question that the person raised explicitly in
                        Matthew. Here your calculation of the percentage of agreement does not take
                        account of the significant differences between these two narratives.
                        Admittedly there is a high percentage of verbal agreement here. Does this
                        mean that supplementation is out of the question? Only if you interpret
                        "supplement" very narrowly. The point is that, despite the high percentage
                        of verbal agreement the questions are very different. "Teacher, what good
                        must I do to have eternal life?" and "Good teacher, what must I do to
                        inherit eternal life?" are not the same question despite the high
                        percentage of agreement.

                        I think that it is entirely possible that Mark has supplemented the
                        Matthean narrative and transformed a simple and straightforward story about
                        Torah observance into one that adds another concern, the Christological
                        motif. Advocates of the Two Gospel (Griesbach) Hypothesis might well argue
                        that it was Luke who introduced the change and that, because of his
                        Christological interests, Mark preferred the Lukan version of the question
                        to the Matthean version. Your use of "statistical evidence" to conclude
                        that the suggestion that Mark supplements Matthew does not hold water does
                        not adequately deal with the very real possibility that Mark (or Luke) has,
                        in fact, supplemented the Matthean narrative by adding a Christological
                        motif to a simpler narrative about Torah observance. Now we have two issues
                        rather than one. That's supplementing no matter how you count the words. It
                        seems to me that one has to pay attention to the content as well.

                        Or, I suppose, it might be a happy coincidence that Matthew (for whom the
                        relationship of Christianity to the Torah of Israel is a very important
                        motif) found in Mark's rather convoluted narrative, with two questions
                        intertwined, exactly what he needed for a nicely structured and more
                        unified narrative about Torah and Christianity, including just the right
                        word to allow the Jewish reference to the Torah as "the good."

                        Now I am not suggesting that advocates of Markan priority could not offer
                        cogent suggestions about how Mark has modified the Matthean narrative here
                        (although none of those that I have read so far have convinced me). I am
                        not suggesting that the alternate analysis that I have offered above
                        renders the Two Document Hypothesis false. That would be to draw
                        conclusions far beyond those that can be supported by the evidence or
                        argument that I've offered. But to assert, as you have, the falsity of the
                        view that Mark might have been written to supplement Matthew does seem to
                        me to draw a conclusion far beyond what can be supported by the evidence
                        that you provide. This is, as we all recognize, a very complex issue and I
                        think that cogent arguments can be offered for different solutions to the
                        problem. In some ways that's the challenge - and I like the synoptic
                        problem for the same reason that I like meteorology, for its complexity. I
                        must say that I found your dismissal of the idea that Mark might have been
                        written to supplement earlier gospels just a bit too simplistic and facile.
                        In fact, if anything doesn't hold water, it's the "statistical" argument
                        that you offer above. And why you add "shortage of space" to the equation,
                        giving special weight to this possible explanation, still eludes me.

                        Finally, your statement that "the omission of that 6% is relatively easy to
                        explain on the basis that Mark was the source for the other two synoptics"
                        blurs the fact that the number is higher than 6% if you compare Matthew and
                        Luke individually with Mark and a somewhat problematic number to use if you
                        look at them together and wish to maintain their independence of each other
                        as well.

                        Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                        Colby College
                        Waterville, ME



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                      • Ron Price
                        ... Thomas, On my synoptic theory (the 3ST), Mark decided not to include the complete Lord s Prayer from the early sayings source ( sQ ) because he realized
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 14, 2002
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                          Thomas Longstaff wrote:

                          > ..... I am not sure why you suggest
                          >only this reason, shortage of space, as a possible explanation for Mark's
                          >omission. Do you have some reason for highlighting that possible reason
                          >among the many that might be suggested?

                          Thomas,

                          On my synoptic theory (the 3ST), Mark decided not to include the
                          complete Lord's Prayer from the early sayings source ('sQ') because he
                          realized the clause "May your kingdom come" had political overtones, and
                          he was anxious to present a gospel which would not unduly offend the
                          Roman authorities.
                          The most obvious alternative reason to my mind is shortage of space,
                          so I disposed of that argument. Now I await your explanation, for in
                          spite of your lengthy reply, you didn't suggest a reason why Mark
                          declined to incorporate the Lord's Prayer in particular.

                          >I think that the suggestion that Mark wrote to supplement the other Gospels
                          >does, in fact, "hold water," despite the evidence that you offer to the
                          >contrary. If one understands the concept of "supplementing," as I would, to
                          >include setting the materials in a different context for a different
                          >audience .....

                          It's clear that my disagreement with you and Leonard on the matter of
                          "supplementing" is merely a matter of semantics. I take the word in its
                          most obvious sense of adding material. You both take it in a broader
                          sense of adjusting the message to a different audience. I simply think
                          you're using the wrong word here.

                          > ..... In
                          >Matthew a person comes to Jesus with a question about the Torah, "Teacher,
                          >what good must I do to inherit eternal life?"

                          The problem I see with Matthew's version is that "There is only one
                          who is good." appears to be at best irrelevant and at worst pedantic. It
                          doesn't help the questioner.

                          > ..... In Mark it is not clear, as it
                          >is in Matthew, that the questioner has asked about Torah.

                          I don't see that's the case in Mark's story. The man asked an innocent
                          and open question. The fact that Jesus is presented as immediately
                          turning to the Torah should be no surprise, for this was meant to be a
                          Jewish scene.

                          To return to the subject of the title, I think my synoptic theory fits
                          better here for several reasons:
                          (1) the Lord's Prayer was put in written form in sQ ca. 45 CE (and given
                          a prominent position as the opening saying in the third section - see my
                          Web site).
                          (2) I'm not under any constraint to think that Matthew's version was
                          earlier than Luke's, nor do I have to invoke oral tradition.
                          (3) Mark 11:25 and 14:38 incorporate Markan adaptations of parts of the
                          prayer. This explains the doublet Mt 6:12 (taken from sQ) and 6:14
                          (taken from Mk 11:25, which in turn came from sQ).
                          (4) I have a clear reason why Mark declined to copy the prayer in full.

                          Ron Price

                          Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                          e-mail: ron.price@...

                          Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

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                        • Maluflen@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/14/2002 10:29:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I m willing to withdraw my use of the term supplementing . Are you willing to admit that
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 14, 2002
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                            In a message dated 6/14/2002 10:29:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ron.price@... writes:




                              It's clear that my disagreement with you and Leonard on the matter of
                            "supplementing" is merely a matter of semantics. I take the word in its
                            most obvious sense of adding material. You both take it in a broader
                            sense of adjusting the message to a different audience. I simply think
                            you're using the wrong word here.



                            I'm willing to withdraw my use of the term "supplementing". Are you willing to admit that my arguments for a late Mark, at least in theory, are valid? That it in no way follows logically from the fact that Mark is materially shorter than Matthew and Luke that Mark is prior to those two Gospels? This is the question that is not "merely a matter of semantics".

                            Leonard Maluf
                          • Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                            ... But if Mark wanted to be so careful not to offend Roman authorities, why omit this reference (which might have a firm place in tradition) and include such
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 14, 2002
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                              At 06:36 PM 6/14/2002 +0100, Ron Price wrote:
                              >Thomas Longstaff wrote:
                              >
                              > > ..... I am not sure why you suggest
                              > >only this reason, shortage of space, as a possible explanation for Mark's
                              > >omission. Do you have some reason for highlighting that possible reason
                              > >among the many that might be suggested?
                              >
                              >Thomas,
                              >
                              > On my synoptic theory (the 3ST), Mark decided not to include the
                              >complete Lord's Prayer from the early sayings source ('sQ') because he
                              >realized the clause "May your kingdom come" had political overtones, and
                              >he was anxious to present a gospel which would not unduly offend the
                              >Roman authorities.

                              But if Mark wanted to be so careful not to offend Roman authorities, why
                              omit this reference (which might have a firm place in tradition) and
                              include such texts as Mark 9:1, 11:10, 14:25 and other references to the
                              kingdom, not to mention Mark 12:17 which might easily be read to mean
                              render to Caesar what is Caesar's (i.e., Rome) and to God what is God's
                              (i.e., Palestine)?

                              And I do understand that you were explaining your synoptic theory. I was
                              not, however, not limiting my comments to a discussion your synoptic theory
                              alone but was addressing your dismissal of other options as well. It seems
                              to me that there are other reasonable perspectives on the synoptic problem
                              than your theory.

                              > The most obvious alternative reason to my mind is shortage of space,
                              >so I disposed of that argument. Now I await your explanation, for in
                              >spite of your lengthy reply, you didn't suggest a reason why Mark
                              >declined to incorporate the Lord's Prayer in particular.

                              Actually, your decision to highlight this argument seemed to me something
                              of a smoke screen. You introduced what I would agree is a very weak
                              alternative to your view and then, as you say, "disposed of that argument,"
                              evidently thinking that this, somehow, strengthened your own. It was,
                              however, not an argument that I, or anyone else, had proposed. You then say
                              that I didn't suggest a reason why Mark declined to incorporate the Lord's
                              Prayer in particular. But in a sense I did. I suggested that if Mark were
                              late and believed that the earlier gospels would continue to exist and to
                              be available in the churches, then he was under no compulsion to include
                              everything - and need not have included the Lord's Prayer since it was
                              already available in the other gospels and, presumably, well known in the
                              community for which he wrote. His reason for omitting it is that it did not
                              have an important place in the narrative he was writing. If Mark is late
                              there is a lot that he omits and I think it incorrect to conclude that Mark
                              believed that material would be lost forever.

                              > >I think that the suggestion that Mark wrote to supplement the other Gospels
                              > >does, in fact, "hold water," despite the evidence that you offer to the
                              > >contrary. If one understands the concept of "supplementing," as I would, to
                              > >include setting the materials in a different context for a different
                              > >audience .....
                              >
                              > It's clear that my disagreement with you and Leonard on the matter of
                              >"supplementing" is merely a matter of semantics. I take the word in its
                              >most obvious sense of adding material. You both take it in a broader
                              >sense of adjusting the message to a different audience. I simply think
                              >you're using the wrong word here.

                              Thank you for that correction. Although the Oxford Dictionary of the
                              English Language seems to include the sense in which I used the term I am
                              happy to know when I am wrong, even though I still find it difficult to see
                              how my suggestion that Mark (or Luke) has ADDED a second motif, the
                              question of who is properly called good, falls outside the most obvious
                              sense of ADDING MATERIAL. Perhaps you are suggesting that we should use the
                              term "supplement" only for the 6% of words and phrases that you referred to
                              earlier. That's possible but then you and I do have a different
                              understanding of what the most obvious sense of the term is.

                              > > ..... In
                              > >Matthew a person comes to Jesus with a question about the Torah, "Teacher,
                              > >what good must I do to inherit eternal life?"
                              >
                              > The problem I see with Matthew's version is that "There is only one
                              >who is good." appears to be at best irrelevant and at worst pedantic. It
                              >doesn't help the questioner.

                              I have a problem here too. It seems to me that you can only translate
                              Matthew's EIS ESTIN O AGATHOS as "There is only one who is good," if you
                              allow your translation of Matthew to be influenced by your knowledge of
                              what Mark has written and the presumption that Matthew has copied Mark. A
                              more reasonable, and accurate, translation of Matthew's Greek here would be
                              the straightforward "The good is one," emphasizing the unity of the Torah
                              and stressing the word "one" by placing it first in the clause - note, too,
                              that AGATHOS is definite, and, it seems to me, used in the absolute rather
                              than the attributive sense. To then call this "at best irrelevant and at
                              worst pedantic" is to miss the point of Matthew's narrative and to malign
                              that author unfairly in defense of Markan priority. I suggest that
                              Matthew's answer does help the questioner. The dialogue reflects a
                              discussion of Torah observance such as we find frequently in Jewish
                              tradition. Now it may be that Mark, Luke (and many modern readers) did not
                              understand the nuances of the dialogue in a Jewish context but that lack of
                              understanding (and the accompanying mistranslation of Matthew that it
                              produces in some English versions of the Bible) does not make Matthew's
                              account irrelevant or pedantic as you assert. If Mark is the earliest
                              gospel, a possibility that I am willing to entertain, the imposition of
                              that source theory on a reading of Matthew here obscures the Matthean
                              version of the story. On either source theory Matthew's narrative seems to
                              me coherent, unified and understandable. I do not see Jesus' answer (in
                              Matthew) as either irrelevant or pedantic.

                              > > ..... In Mark it is not clear, as it
                              > >is in Matthew, that the questioner has asked about Torah.
                              >
                              > I don't see that's the case in Mark's story. The man asked an innocent
                              >and open question. The fact that Jesus is presented as immediately
                              >turning to the Torah should be no surprise, for this was meant to be a
                              >Jewish scene.

                              Again, your reading of the story is affected by the source theory that you
                              want to defend. You are quite right when you say that in Mark "the man
                              asked an innocent and open question." You are not quite right when you say
                              that Jesus immediately turns to the Torah. He doesn't. He immediately
                              informs the questioner, who has called him "Good Teacher," that no one
                              except God can be called "good." Then, and only then, does he turn to the
                              Torah. I repeat. There are two motifs in the Markan story, only one in
                              Matthew - unless you are suggesting that the principle "no one except God
                              can be called good" is found in the Torah.

                              > To return to the subject of the title, I think my synoptic theory fits
                              >better here for several reasons:
                              >(1) the Lord's Prayer was put in written form in sQ ca. 45 CE (and given
                              >a prominent position as the opening saying in the third section - see my
                              >Web site).
                              >(2) I'm not under any constraint to think that Matthew's version was
                              >earlier than Luke's, nor do I have to invoke oral tradition.
                              >(3) Mark 11:25 and 14:38 incorporate Markan adaptations of parts of the
                              >prayer. This explains the doublet Mt 6:12 (taken from sQ) and 6:14
                              >(taken from Mk 11:25, which in turn came from sQ).
                              >(4) I have a clear reason why Mark declined to copy the prayer in full.

                              We can agree that you think that your synoptic theory is better.

                              I think that your theory does have some real strengths here but that you
                              draw conclusions about the synoptic problem that go far beyond the
                              evidence. Further, it seems to me that you do not deal very well with
                              objections or alternatives to the view that you assert. In defending the
                              theory you make very questionable use of the "statistical evidence" and
                              seem to me in some cases to misrepresent the evidence by imposing your
                              theory upon it. I have given two examples of that above, namely your use of
                              a mistranslation of Matthew and the assertion that Mark immediately turns
                              to the Torah.

                              Finally, if I agree with you that Mark wants to be very careful not to
                              offend Roman authorities (and I'm not sure that I do) that would better fit
                              a context during Domitian's reign than any earlier period.



                              Dr. Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                              Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies
                              Director, Jewish Studies
                              Colby College
                              4643 Mayflower Hill
                              Waterville, ME 04901
                              Telephone: (207) 872-3150
                              FAX: (207) 872-3802
                              Email: tlongst@...


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                            • Ron Price
                              ... Thomas, Mark put the saying of 9:1 in a context which suggested that the Transfiguration fulfilled the prophecy about the kingdom of God coming with
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 15, 2002
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                                I wrote:

                                >>the clause "May your kingdom come" had political overtones, and
                                >>he [Mark] was anxious to present a gospel which would not unduly offend
                                >>the Roman authorities.

                                Thomas Longstaff replied:

                                >But if Mark wanted to be so careful not to offend Roman authorities, why
                                >omit this reference (which might have a firm place in tradition) and
                                >include such texts as Mark 9:1, 11:10, 14:25 and other references to the
                                >kingdom,

                                Thomas,

                                Mark put the saying of 9:1 in a context which suggested that the
                                'Transfiguration' fulfilled the prophecy about the kingdom of God coming
                                with power. In other words he here found a way of keeping a kingdom-come
                                saying whilst rendering it innocuous.
                                A clarification of "he who comes" in 11:9 is essential to point out
                                the significance of the story about Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a
                                donkey, so presumably Mark felt obliged to attempt it. Curiously the
                                "kingdom .... that is coming" in 11:10 looks like a watered down version
                                of an original "king who is coming", which would have been even more
                                likely to offend the Roman authorities. Thus Luke's "king" was probably
                                more accurate, though he immediately countered any military overtones by
                                adding: "Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest heaven."


                                > not to mention Mark 12:17 .....

                                The crucial question here is whether the Palestinians should pay
                                taxes. The saying in v.17 is subtly ambiguous. But Mark's context
                                ("Whose likeness and inscription is this?" "Caesar's") makes it clear
                                that he thought the taxes should be paid.

                                So by omission, alteration, choosing suitable contexts, and also the
                                literary device of the 'Messianic secret' (8:29-30), Mark contrived to
                                play down the political side of the Messiah-king.

                                > ..... You ... say
                                >that I didn't suggest a reason why Mark declined to incorporate the Lord's
                                >Prayer in particular. But in a sense I did. I suggested that if Mark were
                                >late and believed that the earlier gospels would continue to exist and to
                                >be available in the churches, then he was under no compulsion to include
                                >everything .....

                                That's not a reason relating to the LP *in particular*.

                                > ..... - and need not have included the Lord's Prayer since it was
                                >already available in the other gospels

                                Ditto.

                                > and, presumably, well known in the
                                >community for which he wrote.

                                I doubt it. But as there's no evidence, I suppose we'll have to agree
                                to differ.

                                > A
                                >more reasonable, and accurate, translation of Matthew's Greek here [Mt 19:17]
                                >would be the straightforward "The good is one," ..... I suggest that
                                >Matthew's answer does help the questioner. The dialogue reflects a
                                >discussion of Torah observance .....

                                But does it help to answer the question? If so, I don't see how.

                                > I do not see Jesus' answer (in
                                >Matthew) as either irrelevant or pedantic.

                                Then perhaps you would explain the relevance of "The good is one"
                                (accepting your translation for the sake of argument) to the question
                                about eternal life.

                                >Finally, if I agree with you that Mark wants to be very careful not to
                                >offend Roman authorities (and I'm not sure that I do) that would better fit
                                >a context during Domitian's reign than any earlier period.

                                Not necessarily. If Mark was written ca. 70 CE in Rome, as I and many
                                others believe, then Nero's vicious persecution would still have been
                                quite fresh in the readers' minds. They couldn't be sure there wouldn't
                                be a recurrence. Vespasian had just taken over as emperor, so the
                                Christian citizens of Rome wouldn't have had much time to assess the
                                likely consequences of his rule.

                                Ron Price

                                Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                                e-mail: ron.price@...

                                Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

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                              • Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                                At 08:56 PM 6/15/2002 +0100, Ron Price wrote (in part): Because this discussion will soon become tedious to other subscribers on the list I think that this
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 15, 2002
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                                  At 08:56 PM 6/15/2002 +0100, Ron Price wrote (in part):

                                  Because this discussion will soon become tedious to other subscribers on
                                  the list I think that this will be my last comment on the matter. I will
                                  try to restrain myself. As I said in a previous message, Ron makes some
                                  very good points and his theory has some real strengths. On the other hand,
                                  he seems unwilling to entertain the idea that any other point of view could
                                  have merit or that his view could, in any regard, be challenged. He does
                                  not respond to those points where his views are most vulnerable - to choose
                                  one example he does not respond at all (nor even acknowledge), that at one
                                  point he rested his argument on an inaccurate and biased translation of
                                  Matthew, expressing the very bias that he was attempting to defend by using
                                  that translation. Furthermore, he makes assertions without taking any
                                  account of the extensive discussion in which alternate points of view have
                                  been carefully developed. With respect to the question of paying taxes to
                                  Caesar, whether one accepts the point of view or not, one should at least
                                  consider that this might represent a statement of zealot idealism.
                                  Similarly with respect to the persecution of Nero. Is there good evidence
                                  to suggest that this was a continuing persecution rather than short-lived
                                  one or that it extended significantly beyond Rome and its environs? I don't
                                  think so. Now let me address myself to Ron.

                                  > > ..... You ... say
                                  > >that I didn't suggest a reason why Mark declined to incorporate the Lord's
                                  > >Prayer in particular. But in a sense I did. I suggested that if Mark were
                                  > >late and believed that the earlier gospels would continue to exist and to
                                  > >be available in the churches, then he was under no compulsion to include
                                  > >everything .....
                                  >
                                  > That's not a reason relating to the LP *in particular*.

                                  Not is the reason *in particular* that you demand required unless one is
                                  willing grant that the alternatives I have suggested are all impossible or
                                  improbable ones which should be summarily dismissed.

                                  > > ..... - and need not have included the Lord's Prayer since it was
                                  > >already available in the other gospels
                                  >
                                  > Ditto.

                                  This is a good example of what I mean when I suggest that you are unwilling
                                  even to consider the merits of any view other than your own.

                                  > > A
                                  > >more reasonable, and accurate, translation of Matthew's Greek here [Mt
                                  > 19:17]
                                  > >would be the straightforward "The good is one," ..... I suggest that
                                  > >Matthew's answer does help the questioner. The dialogue reflects a
                                  > >discussion of Torah observance .....
                                  >
                                  > But does it help to answer the question? If so, I don't see how.

                                  If you ask the same question, you should anticipate the same answer.

                                  As I said above, yes it does help to answer the question. Further, I
                                  suggested that the dialogue in Matthew reflects a discussion of Torah
                                  observance. Your simple statement that you don't see how is not a very
                                  strong argument to the contrary nor does it serve to support your view that
                                  Jesus' response is irrelevant or pedantic.

                                  > > I do not see Jesus' answer (in
                                  > >Matthew) as either irrelevant or pedantic.
                                  >
                                  > Then perhaps you would explain the relevance of "The good is one"
                                  >(accepting your translation for the sake of argument) to the question
                                  >about eternal life.

                                  Yes, I'll try, but first, please don't accept my translation "for the sake
                                  of argument." I have suggested that the translation that you used in your
                                  argument was, in fact, a mistranslation revealing a bias in favor of the
                                  very view that you were defending by using it. At best your comments were
                                  circular. If you think that the translation that you offered is not
                                  affected by a presumption of Markan priority and that it better represents
                                  Matthew's EIS ESTIN O AGATHOS, then make your case for that translation.
                                  Show me what, in the Greek, supports the inclusion of "only," and what
                                  justifies the translation of O AGATHOS as an adjective used in the
                                  attributive sense and not in the absolute sense. Don't accept my
                                  translation "for the sake of argument." Support the argument that you have
                                  made for the conclusion that in Matthew Jesus' response is irrelevant or
                                  pedantic. I will, in fact, try to make my case that it is not. I hope that
                                  you will do the same for your view.

                                  So, turning to your question about the relevance of the answer "The good is
                                  one" to the question about eternal life, I hope that we can agree that
                                  Matthew makes frequent references or allusions to the Hebrew Bible (Old
                                  Testament). May I assume that you are familiar with Proverbs 4 and the idea
                                  in Proverbs 4:4 that those who keep the commandments will live (one might
                                  say have eternal life)? Indeed, Jesus' answer to the question about eternal
                                  life is the same answer that we find in Proverbs 4. Keep the commandments.
                                  (As an aside, note that the context in Proverbs sets this in the context of
                                  teaching and Jesus is addressed by the questioner as "Teacher" - not as
                                  "Good Teacher."). It has been argued that the structure of Matthew 19:16
                                  ff. is influenced by the structure of Proverbs 4 and I think that the case
                                  for this is very strong. You might disagree but you should, at least,
                                  consider the arguments to the contrary.

                                  Another relevant text here is Pirke Aboth 6:3 (are you familiar with Pirke
                                  Aboth?). In Pirke Aboth 6:3, there are significant references to Proverbs.
                                  Here we find that one who learns even a single chapter, or a single
                                  Halakah, or a single verse, or a single expression or even a single letter
                                  gains honor. And what is honor? It is Torah, for it is written that the
                                  wise shall inherit honor and the perfect shall inherit good. Simple
                                  syllogisms show that honor equals good and good equals Torah (and the Pirke
                                  Aboth in fact explicitly concludes that "the good is naught else than the
                                  Law," referring to Proverbs 4:2). Therefore honor equals Torah and the
                                  Torah can be (and is) referred to as "the good" [Note Danby's comments
                                  about these syllogisms in his translation of the Mishnah].

                                  So, if the Torah can be referred to as "the good" then the questioner in
                                  Matthew comes with a question about Torah. "What good (what Torah, what
                                  commandment) must I do to have eternal life?" The question is not unlike
                                  one that we find in rabbinic dialogues and elsewhere in the gospels. What
                                  is the greatest commandment? By keeping which commandment do I become Torah
                                  observant and, therefore, have eternal life? The questioner asks about
                                  Torah, "What good must I do....?" Jesus responds with a statement about
                                  Torah, stressing its unity (and, perhaps, the centrality of the decalogue),
                                  "The good is one." The questioner asks about the Torah. Jesus responds by
                                  talking about the Torah. Both question and response use "good" in the same
                                  way, to refer to Torah. In my view the answer is neither irrelevant nor
                                  pedantic. Indeed the question and answer open a dialogue about Torah
                                  observance which concludes with a Christian statement about what more is
                                  required for faithful discipleship. As I have said, it seems to me that
                                  Matthew's narrative is both unified and coherent.

                                  The questioner asks about the good (Torah). Jesus responds by talking about
                                  the good (Torah). I am not sure how that answer is irrelevant or pedantic
                                  and the ball is now in your court to support your conclusion that it is.

                                  If you would bear with me for a moment and consider that it might be
                                  possible that Matthew is the earliest gospel (and I know that your synoptic
                                  theory rejects this point of view; I have visited your web site), then a
                                  unified dialogue about the Torah and eternal life in Matthew is broken up
                                  in Mark and Luke. It may be that the later authors (on this scenario) did
                                  not understand, as many have not, that the Torah could be referred to as
                                  the "Good" nor the nuances of Jewish dialogues about Torah observance and
                                  the way Matthew's account reflects the structure of Proverbs 4. And so a
                                  new theme is introduced (I will avoid talking about this as something
                                  added, i.e., a supplement). The referent of the term "good" is different.
                                  Jesus is called "Good Teacher" and the Christological motif (important to
                                  Mark and perhaps well understood in the Gentile communities for which Mark
                                  and Luke wrote) is combined with a question about Torah observance and the
                                  close structural connection to Proverbs is lost. In these gospels we have
                                  two issues, albeit combined, rather than one, despite your assertion that
                                  Mark immediately turns from the "open and honest question" about eternal
                                  life to comments about Torah (another critique of the way you argue your
                                  case to which you do not respond).

                                  On the Two Document (or Three Document) Hypothesis you must admit that it
                                  is a happy coincidence that Matthew found in Mark just the right term,
                                  "good," to refer to Torah and just the right words (with few changes) to
                                  compose a dialogue intimately related in its structure to Proverbs 4 and to
                                  other rabbinic discussions about Torah observance as we find them in Pirke
                                  Aboth and elsewhere. Do I think it impossible that Matthew did this? No. As
                                  I have said before, I think that there are strengths, and weaknesses, in
                                  each of the proposed solutions to the synoptic problem. In this case I
                                  think that the evidence weighs more heavily in favor of Matthean priority.
                                  I think that you have made some good points about the Lord's Prayer. Do I
                                  think that your analysis constitutes convincing evidence that his gospel
                                  was written first? I confess that I do not nor do I think that you have
                                  made that case very well.

                                  Tom Longstaff



                                  Dr. Thomas R. W. Longstaff
                                  Crawford Family Professor of Religious Studies
                                  Director, Jewish Studies
                                  Colby College
                                  4643 Mayflower Hill
                                  Waterville, ME 04901
                                  Telephone: (207) 872-3150
                                  FAX: (207) 872-3802
                                  Email: tlongst@...


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                                • Maluflen@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 6/15/2002 5:13:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Tom, for obvious reasons I would like to accept the validity of your interpretation here,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 16, 2002
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                                    In a message dated 6/15/2002 5:13:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tlongst@... writes:


                                    The questioner asks about
                                    Torah, "What good must I do....?" Jesus responds with a statement about
                                    Torah, stressing its unity (and, perhaps, the centrality of the decalogue),
                                    "The good is one." The questioner asks about the Torah. Jesus responds by
                                    talking about the Torah. Both question and response use "good" in the same
                                    way, to refer to Torah.


                                    Tom, for obvious reasons I would like to accept the validity of your interpretation here, but I have a few problems with it which perhaps I could get you to expand on for the list. My main problem is with the gender of ho agathos in Matt 19:17b. Why is it masculine and not neuter if it is a reference to the Law? If "the good"in this phrase were a reference to the Law, I would expect to read "hen estin to agathon". I agree with you (or at least with what I think you said in a previous post) that ho agathos should be read as subject and heis as predicate of the phrase, but the gender of both does not seem to me to support your reading. You also do not seem to incorporate 19:17a very well into your overall interpretation of the text: "why do you ask ME...?". And in this phrase, the gender of "the good" is ambiguous, because it is in the genitive case and could be either neuter or masculine (whatever one might make of this). It does seem to me that even reading Matthew as not dependent here on Mark, Matthew intends to have Jesus change the topic somewhat in his initial response to the questioner, raising it to another level perhaps, as he very often does in Matthew. But perhaps there is something I am not getting here. Also, even in the initial question, it seems to me exaggerated to take "to agathon" as simply a reference to the Law. It might be language deliberately used because of its connection to traditional Jewish discussions regarding the Law as the good, but an initial simple reading of the text must understand agathon here not as a substantive (and therefore a simple reference to the Law) but rather as an adjective modifying the interrogative particle ti, meaning "what thing". So as I read the text neither the questioner nor Jesus in his response really use the term "good" as a direct reference to the Law. Am I wrong here?

                                    Leonard Maluf
                                  • Ron Price
                                    ... Tom, I was trying to find out why you are so keen on your translation of hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS (Mt 19:17) before deciding whether to challenge it. All I had
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 16, 2002
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                                      Thomas Longstaff wrote:

                                      > ..... he does not respond at all (nor even acknowledge), that at one
                                      >point he rested his argument on an inaccurate and biased translation of
                                      >Matthew, expressing the very bias that he was attempting to defend by using
                                      >that translation.

                                      Tom,

                                      I was trying to find out why you are so keen on your translation of
                                      hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS (Mt 19:17) before deciding whether to challenge it.
                                      All I had done was to go to the nearest translation at hand at the time,
                                      which happened to be the NRSV. I've since checked all the other English
                                      translations on my bookshelf, including the RC "Jerusalem Bible", and
                                      they all say something similar to the NRSV. You would appear to be way
                                      out on a limb here, though I accept that doesn't *in itself* prove
                                      you're wrong.

                                      > ..... With respect to the question of paying taxes to
                                      >Caesar, whether one accepts the point of view or not, one should at least
                                      >consider that this might represent a statement of zealot idealism.

                                      Far from not considering it, I actually agree here, though only in
                                      regard to the core saying in Mk 12:17 when it was (supposing it once
                                      was) an isolated saying. I've already explained why I think the Markan
                                      setting of the saying transforms it into advice that the taxes should be
                                      paid.

                                      >>> I suggested that if Mark were
                                      >>> late and believed that the earlier gospels would continue to exist and to
                                      >>> be available in the churches, then he was under no compulsion to include
                                      >>> everything .....

                                      >> That's not a reason relating to the LP *in particular*.

                                      >>> ..... - and need not have included the Lord's Prayer since it was
                                      >> >already available in the other gospels

                                      >> Ditto.

                                      >This is a good example of what I mean when I suggest that you are unwilling
                                      >even to consider the merits of any view other than your own.

                                      I don't consider a general reason, which works for any pericope, to be
                                      as good an explanation as a reason directed at the particular pericope
                                      in question, i.e. the LP.

                                      > ..... [ much snipped ] .....
                                      >So, if the Torah can be referred to as "the good" then the questioner in
                                      >Matthew comes with a question about Torah. "What good (what Torah, what
                                      >commandment) must I do to have eternal life?"
                                      > ..... Jesus responds with a statement about
                                      >Torah, stressing its unity (and, perhaps, the centrality of the decalogue),
                                      >"The good is one." The questioner asks about the Torah. Jesus responds by
                                      >talking about the Torah. Both question and response use "good" in the same
                                      >way, to refer to Torah. In my view the answer is neither irrelevant nor
                                      >pedantic.

                                      Thanks for explaining your viewpoint in such detail.
                                      Firstly, I admit that I'm not familiar with Pirke Aboth, nor any
                                      Rabbinic writings (assuming that's what it is). Looking at the crucial
                                      text hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS, I see that its normal translation involves a
                                      subtlety which my level of Greek is not up to assessing directly.
                                      However this does not disqualify me from making the following
                                      observations.
                                      (a) I'm wary of a position which apparently accuses the translators of
                                      both the standard English English NTs (NEB, REB) and the standard
                                      American English NTs (RSV, NRSV) of bias.
                                      (b) The idea that Mt 19:16 ff. is influenced by the structure of Prov 4
                                      seems inherently unlikely, if only because (according to the UBS3 index)
                                      Proverbs is never quoted in the gospels.
                                      (c) I still don't see why stressing the unity of the Torah has any
                                      relevance to the question.
                                      (d) The whole point of the pericope in all the synoptics is Jesus'
                                      follow-up, which indicates that keeping the Torah is not enough. So why
                                      on earth would the Torah be described as "good" in this context? All
                                      three synoptics are running it down by saying, in effect, that it is not
                                      good enough.

                                      > ..... In these gospels we have
                                      >two issues, albeit combined, rather than one,

                                      It is true that Mark and Luke include an extra issue, namely whether
                                      Jesus should be called "good". But as their conclusion is that he
                                      shouldn't, it's more likely the issue was removed by Matthew in order to
                                      enhance the image of Jesus. For if it had been added by Mark or Luke it
                                      would have tended to tarnish the image of Jesus. The general trend over
                                      time was to enhance his image.

                                      > despite your assertion that
                                      >Mark immediately turns from the "open and honest question" about eternal
                                      >life to comments about Torah (another critique of the way you argue your
                                      >case to which you do not respond).

                                      O.K., so I should have written "almost immediately" for v.18
                                      intervenes between vv. Mk 10:17 and Mk 10:19.

                                      >On the Two Document (or Three Document) Hypothesis you must admit that it
                                      >is a happy coincidence that Matthew found in Mark just the right term,
                                      >"good," to refer to Torah

                                      If "good" in Matthew *did* refer to the Torah, then yes.
                                      But there's yet another problem here. For if many of today's the best
                                      educated scholars don't see this reference, I doubt whether Matthew
                                      could have expected his audience to understand it.

                                      > and just the right words (with few changes)

                                      But here you let your enthusiasm run away with itself. They clearly
                                      weren't "just the right words" if any changes were needed.

                                      > ..... In this case I
                                      >think that the evidence weighs more heavily in favor of Matthean priority.

                                      Our assessment of the evidence is radically different.

                                      >I think that you have made some good points about the Lord's Prayer.

                                      Thanks.

                                      > Do I think that your analysis constitutes convincing evidence
                                      > that his gospel was written first? I confess that I do not ...

                                      Ah well, it was worth a try. ;-)


                                      Ron Price

                                      Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                                      e-mail: ron.price@...

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                                    • Stephen C. Carlson
                                      ... The Greek of Matthew 19:17 hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS is notoriously obscure. Literally, it means the good is one or possibly there is one who/that is good,
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 16, 2002
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                                        At 06:02 PM 6/16/02 +0100, Ron Price wrote:
                                        > Thanks for explaining your viewpoint in such detail.
                                        > Firstly, I admit that I'm not familiar with Pirke Aboth, nor any
                                        >Rabbinic writings (assuming that's what it is). Looking at the crucial
                                        >text hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS, I see that its normal translation involves a
                                        >subtlety which my level of Greek is not up to assessing directly.
                                        > However this does not disqualify me from making the following
                                        >observations.
                                        >(a) I'm wary of a position which apparently accuses the translators of
                                        >both the standard English English NTs (NEB, REB) and the standard
                                        >American English NTs (RSV, NRSV) of bias.

                                        The Greek of Matthew 19:17 hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS is notoriously
                                        obscure. Literally, it means "the good is one" or possibly
                                        "there is one who/that is good," but what that means in its
                                        context is not clear at all. Rather than presenting the
                                        readers with an obscure text, translators have had to impose
                                        some kind of interpretation, generally by referring to the
                                        clearer parallels in Mark and Luke. In fact, this behavior
                                        is not limited to English-language translators, for the Byzantine
                                        scribes have replaced hEIS ESTIN hO AGAQOS with OUDEIS AGAQOS
                                        EI ME hEIS, ho QEOS ("No one is good but one, God.").

                                        The interpretive nature of the rendering is openly acknowledged
                                        in the NASB ("New American Standard Bible") text, which employs
                                        italics around the word "only": "There is /only/ One who is good."
                                        Translations such as the NRSV do not employ italics and do not
                                        generally footnote their interpretive decisions. (The AV does
                                        not use italics here because it follows the Byzantine text.)

                                        O. Lamar Cope and TRWL here have proposed a plausible meaning
                                        of the Greek and Matthew's pericope as a whole, but you can
                                        never see it in the usual translations. You have to go to Greek.

                                        Personally, I've been disappointed with the standard source
                                        critical treatments of this passage. They exaggerate the
                                        Christological problems in Mark's text, while ignoring the
                                        lack of clarity in Matthew's text. Peter Head's discussion
                                        on this passage in his book is a welcome but rare, balanced
                                        treatment.

                                        Stephen Carlson
                                        --
                                        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                                        Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                                        "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

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                                      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                                        ... Two problems here, I think. One, on your thesis it would be difficult to explain then why Mark has Jesus not only use **any** BASILEIA TOU QEOU language,
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 18, 2002
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                                          Ron Price wrote:

                                          > Thomas Longstaff wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > ..... I am not sure why you suggest
                                          > >only this reason, shortage of space, as a possible explanation for Mark's
                                          > >omission. Do you have some reason for highlighting that possible reason
                                          > >among the many that might be suggested?
                                          >
                                          > Thomas,
                                          >
                                          > On my synoptic theory (the 3ST), Mark decided not to include the
                                          > complete Lord's Prayer from the early sayings source ('sQ') because he
                                          > realized the clause "May your kingdom come" had political overtones, and
                                          > he was anxious to present a gospel which would not unduly offend the
                                          > Roman authorities.

                                          Two problems here, I think.

                                          One, on your thesis it would be difficult to explain then why Mark has Jesus not
                                          only use **any** BASILEIA TOU QEOU language, but begin his ministry with the
                                          programmatic announcement HGGIKEN hH BASILEIA TOU QEOU.

                                          Two, it would also be difficult to explain why Mark chooses to summarize what
                                          Jesus preaches as the EUAGGELION TOU QEOU since EUAGGELION is a term with roots
                                          in the propaganda of the Imperial Cult, and the addition of the phrase TOU QEOU
                                          makes Jesus' message a **direct competitor** to the EUAGGELION of Caesar. (on
                                          this, see Craig A. Evans "MARK’S INCIPIT AND THE PRIENE CALENDAR INSCRIPTION:
                                          FROM JEWISH GOSPEL TO GRECO-ROMAN GOSPEL" at http://www.jgrchj.com/page67)

                                          Then there is the problem that you have assumed what needs to be proven, namely,
                                          that the Kingdom petition in the LP is a call for God to bring in his BASILEIA
                                          in the near future and therefore has political overtones. I have argued in my
                                          recent BTB article on problems with seeing the LP as an eschatological prayer
                                          that this is simply **not** the focus of this petition. Rather, the aim of the
                                          petition is to secure divine aid against apostasy.

                                          I hope you'll forgive me for taking the liberty of quoting myself on this
                                          matter:

                                          *********
                                          Surely, the eschatologists argue, [the Kingdom] petition stands as conclusive
                                          proof that for Matthew and Luke the LP is an eschatological prayer. For is it
                                          not self evident, they ask, given (a) the import of the language of Matt.
                                          6:10a//Lk. 11:2c, and (b) the formal parallelism of the Kingdom petition with
                                          those in the Amidah and the Kaddish which speak of the hastening of God's
                                          kingdom and which (it is claimed) have eschatological intent, that what we have
                                          here is a plea for God to act now to do something he was expected to do only in
                                          the future, namely, establish decisively his sovereignty on earth?
                                          Well, no, it is not self evident, and for two reasons. First, to say that
                                          the petition is a plea for God soon to usher in his BASILEIA (reign/rule)
                                          implies that, at the time the prayer was given, Jesus believed that God not only
                                          had not yet done so, but, more importantly had no intention of doing so, at
                                          least in the foreseeable future (on this, see A. Polag, 60; Beasely Murray,
                                          150). And yet nothing is more certain in the portrait of Jesus that both Matthew
                                          and Luke paint than that Jesus knew God's kingdom to be a powerfully present
                                          reality. Indeed, in the contexts in GMatt and GLuke in which the giving of the
                                          LP takes place, the prevailing assumption about God's BASILEIA is that it and
                                          the opportunity it offers for the salvation of God's people has already arrived
                                          (cf. Matt. 4:16; Lk. 4:16-21; 19:44). In the light of this, it seems unlikely
                                          that the petition in Matt. 6:10a//Lk. 11:2c is a plea for God to act now to do
                                          something he was expected to do only in the (distant?) future. Why urge anyone
                                          to pray for the accomplishment of a fait accompli?
                                          Second, there is the observation that insofar as the wording of petitions in
                                          Jewish prayers wherein God is clearly urged to bring about the early dawning of
                                          his Kingdom stands as any kind of evidence for what prayers with this intent
                                          should look like or be worded, then taking Matt. 6:10a//Lk. 11:2c as having the
                                          intent that "eschatologists" say it has is ruled out. As these Jewish prayers
                                          evince, the standard practice when invoking God to hasten the arrival of his
                                          kingly rule was to use the expression "cause to reign" or a form of the verb "to
                                          reveal", not "to come". Thus if what Jesus actually intended his disciples to
                                          pray in the Kingdom petition for was God's speeding up the timetable for the
                                          arrival of the BASILEIA TOU THEOU (reign/rule of God), he should have urged them
                                          to say not ELTHETW hH BASILEIA SOU (Let your reign/rule come) but something more
                                          along the lines of APOKALUPSATW (be revealed) or (EM)FANEROUTW hH BASILIEA SOU
                                          (let your reign be manifested). And when we add to this observation the fact
                                          (acknowledged even by such staunch advocates of the eschatological
                                          interpretation of the LP as Meier [298], and Davies and Allison, [1:604]; see
                                          also Chilton, 37) that "kingdom" or the expression "God's Kingdom" cannot be
                                          found anywhere in the entire corpus of the literature of formative Judaism (let
                                          alone that of Jewish petitionary prayers, or for that matter that of the NT) as
                                          the subject of the verb "to come", we have good reason to doubt that the
                                          expression ELTHETW hE BASILEIA SOU means what the proponents of the
                                          eschatological interpretation of the LP claim is does.
                                          In fact what it seems to mean is "may we be made worthy of your reign by
                                          being conformed not to our own will but to yours". Three things indicate this.
                                          First, as we have seen, the petition is set by both Matthew and Luke within the
                                          context of Jesus' larger proclamation not only that the Kingdom has arrived but
                                          that both those who seek the Kingdom and those who think they have it as their
                                          heritage must turn and conform themselves to its demands if it is ever to be
                                          theirs. With this as its immediate background, ELTHETW hE BASILEIA SOU echoes
                                          the calls in Rabbinic literature (cf. Yoma 86b; Sanhedrin 97b) for Israel to
                                          seek God's aid to be conformed to charity, obedience, justice, and repentance in
                                          order to be rendered worthy of the deliverance that was faithful Israel's
                                          inheritance (so G.E. Moore, 2:350-352).
                                          Second, there is the implication of the fact, noted by George Caird, that
                                          in the formal and material parallel to the Kingdom petition (Matt. 6:10a//Lk.
                                          11:2c) found in Rev. 22:20c --namely, the petition ERCHOU, KURIE IESOU (Come,
                                          Lord Jesus!), which, like Matt. 6:10a//Lk. 11:2c, is (a) a prayer consisting of
                                          a form of ERXOMAI (to come) in the imperative + subject, and (b) also is uttered
                                          in the context of an announcement of the dawning of a divine visitation (cf.
                                          Rev. 22:20a,b "He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon."
                                          (compare Matt. 4:17; Lk. 4:16-21)--the function ERCHOMAI has there is to express
                                          the desire to be turned from disobedience and conformed to what is called upon
                                          to "come". As Caird notes, Rev. 22:20c is "... a prayer that Christ will come
                                          again to win in his faithful servant the victory which is both Calvary and
                                          Armageddon. It is the prayer which says. 'All I ask is to know Christ and the
                                          power of his resurrection, to share his sufferings and conform to the pattern of
                                          his death, if only I may arrive at the resurrection of the dead’ (Phil. iii.
                                          10-11). It is a prayer that the Christian, confronted by the great ordeal, may
                                          'endure as one who sees the invisible' (Heb. xi. 27), and may hear above the
                                          harsh sentence of the Roman judge the triumph song of heaven" (288, italics
                                          mine). This being the case, then, mutatis mutandis, what the ELTHETW (let come)
                                          in the petition ELTHETW hE BASILEIA SOU does is to express the wish to be made
                                          worthy of God's Kingdom and to be protected from all that would prevent this
                                          end.
                                          And third, there is the implication of Matthew's expansion and explication
                                          of the petition ELTHETW hE BASILEIA SOU with the phrase "May your will be done,
                                          on earth as it is in heaven" (GENETHETW TO THELHMA SOU, hWS EN OURANW KAI EPI
                                          GES, Matt. 6:10b,c). If we assume, as I think we should (especially given how
                                          its conformity with the Matthean version of Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, where
                                          God's enabling of obedience in the face of a desire to be otherwise is exactly
                                          what is expressed, makes the ethical interpretation of Matt. 6:10b,c certain) ,
                                          that the concern of this explicatory phrase is God's enabling of the disciples'
                                          obedience in the face of a desire to be otherwise , we have early testimony that
                                          the objective of the petition which the phrase explicates (ELTHETW hE BASILEIA
                                          SOU) was known to be something other than having God decisively manifest himself
                                          ahead of the time he intended to so do. Quite the contrary, it is to have God
                                          insure that the will of his people is co-ordinate with and not antithetical to
                                          God's own purposes for them.
                                          In the light of all this, the eschatological interpretation of Matt.
                                          6:10a//Lk. 11:2c seems forced. Indeed, the evidence shows that rather than its
                                          being an imploration to God to make his kingdom arrive, ELTHETW hE BASILEIA SOU
                                          is actually a plea for divine aid for obedience and against engaging in apostasy
                                          as Jesus defines it.

                                          ****
                                          Given this, it then seems to me that if we grant for the sake of argument that
                                          Mark did indeed know the LP and chose to leave it out of his Gospel, it simply
                                          cannot be for the reasons you give.

                                          Yours,

                                          Jeffrey Gibson
                                          --
                                          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
                                          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                          Floor 1
                                          Chicago, Illinois 60626
                                          e-mail jgibson000@...
                                          jgibson000@...



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                                        • Ron Price
                                          ... Jeffrey, The concept of the kingdom of God , like the role of Messiah , was too well-established in the tradition to be removed altogether. ... I ve not
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                            I wrote:

                                            >> On my synoptic theory (the 3ST), Mark decided not to include the
                                            >> complete Lord's Prayer from the early sayings source ('sQ') because he
                                            >> realized the clause "May your kingdom come" had political overtones, and
                                            >> he was anxious to present a gospel which would not unduly offend the
                                            >> Roman authorities.

                                            Jeffrey Gibson replied:

                                            >Two problems here, I think.
                                            >
                                            >One, on your thesis it would be difficult to explain then why Mark has
                                            >Jesus not
                                            >only use **any** BASILEIA TOU QEOU language, but begin his ministry with the
                                            >programmatic announcement HGGIKEN hH BASILEIA TOU QEOU.

                                            Jeffrey,

                                            The concept of the "kingdom of God", like the role of "Messiah", was
                                            too well-established in the tradition to be removed altogether.

                                            >Two, it would also be difficult to explain why Mark chooses to summarize what
                                            >Jesus preaches as the EUAGGELION TOU QEOU since EUAGGELION is a term with roots
                                            >in the propaganda of the Imperial Cult, and the addition of the phrase TOU QEOU
                                            >makes Jesus' message a **direct competitor** to the EUAGGELION of Caesar. (on
                                            >this, see Craig A. Evans "MARK’S INCIPIT AND THE PRIENE CALENDAR INSCRIPTION:
                                            >FROM JEWISH GOSPEL TO GRECO-ROMAN GOSPEL" at http://www.jgrchj.com/page67)

                                            I've not yet had time to study this article in detail, but certainly
                                            an initial look leaves me unconvinced that Mark had in mind any
                                            background other than the Tanak, and Isaiah in particular.

                                            >Then there is the problem that you have assumed what needs to be proven,
                                            >namely,
                                            >that the Kingdom petition in the LP is a call for God to bring in his BASILEIA
                                            >in the near future and therefore has political overtones.

                                            In a previous reply to you (dated Jun 13) I had already presented a
                                            case for seeing political overtones in the kingdom petition. You may not
                                            accept my case, but it is gratuitous to say that I "assumed what needs
                                            to be proven".

                                            >I hope you'll forgive me for taking the liberty of quoting myself on this
                                            >matter:

                                            Do proceed.

                                            >*********
                                            >Surely, the eschatologists argue, [the Kingdom] petition stands as conclusive
                                            >proof that for Matthew and Luke the LP is an eschatological prayer.

                                            Already you seem to be attacking a different target. Or are you, by
                                            quoting these words in the present context, assuming that if Matthew and
                                            Luke didn't take the petition as eschatalogical, then neither would
                                            Mark?

                                            > ..... And yet nothing is more certain in the portrait of Jesus that both
                                            >Matthew
                                            >and Luke paint than that Jesus knew God's kingdom to be a powerfully present
                                            >reality.

                                            This may be the dominant impression, but there remains a certain
                                            ambivalence. For both writers included the saying about the kingdom of
                                            God being "near" (Matthew twice, Luke three times), in addition to the
                                            kingdom petition itself.

                                            > ..... it seems unlikely
                                            >that the petition in Matt. 6:10a//Lk. 11:2c is a plea for God to act now to do
                                            >something he was expected to do only in the (distant?) future. Why urge anyone
                                            >to pray for the accomplishment of a fait accompli?

                                            It was presumably a matter of timing. In other words, a "soon" seems
                                            to be implied, as you appear to acknowledge in the quotation below.

                                            > Second, there is the observation that insofar as the wording of
                                            >petitions in
                                            >Jewish prayers wherein God is clearly urged to bring about the early dawning of
                                            >his Kingdom stands as any kind of evidence for what prayers with this intent
                                            >should look like or be worded .....
                                            > ..... Thus if what Jesus actually intended his disciples to
                                            >pray in the Kingdom petition for was God's speeding up the timetable for the
                                            >arrival of the BASILEIA TOU THEOU (reign/rule of God) .....
                                            > ..... "kingdom" or the expression "God's Kingdom" cannot be
                                            >found anywhere in the entire corpus of the literature of formative Judaism (let
                                            >alone that of Jewish petitionary prayers, or for that matter that of the NT) as
                                            >the subject of the verb "to come", we have good reason to doubt that the
                                            >expression ELTHETW hE BASILEIA SOU means what the proponents of the
                                            >eschatological interpretation of the LP claim is does.

                                            The argument here is that formative Judaism expressed its
                                            eschatalogical hope using certain phraseology. Jesus didn't use that
                                            phraseology. Therefore Jesus is unlikely to have been expressing an
                                            eschatalogical hope. But the Christian interest in Jesus is precisely
                                            because he *didn't* conform to all the norms of Judaism. He introduced
                                            both new ideas and new phraseology. We cannot therefore assume that in
                                            this particular case he would have been a conformer. In painting a
                                            picture of the "kingdom of God", Jesus was clearly using his paints in
                                            an original way to produce an original overall effect.

                                            > In fact what it seems to mean is "may we be made worthy of your reign by
                                            >being conformed not to our own will but to yours" .....
                                            > [much snipped]
                                            >****

                                            The synoptic context of the kingdom petition is being invoked here.
                                            But even if your interpretation of this context is correct, Mark may
                                            still have worried that his readers might interpret "May your kingdom
                                            come" in isolation and take it (as I think it was originally intended)
                                            as a plea for the early restoration of the Davidic kingdom.

                                            Ron Price

                                            Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                                            e-mail: ron.price@...

                                            Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

                                            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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