Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

[Synoptic-L] Q & sQ : a comparison

Expand Messages
  • Ron Price
    (With apologies for the double posting to folk on both Synoptic-L and XTalk.) The following summary information compares Q (the hypothetical source of the 2ST)
    Message 1 of 5 , May 28, 2002
      (With apologies for the double posting to folk on both Synoptic-L and
      XTalk.)

      The following summary information compares Q (the hypothetical source
      of the 2ST) with sQ (the hypothetical source of the 3ST).

      60 sQ sayings are common to Q as set out in Kloppenborg Verbin's
      _Excavating Q_, p.100. However this is about as far as the similarity
      goes.

      Literary forms: Q included narratives; sQ did not.

      Number of sayings: in Q, known only approximately; in sQ 72. This
      surprising precision is possible because the sayings are in matched
      pairs, and because of the hint in Lk 10:1 (NA27;REB).

      Structure: Q had no clear structure; sQ consisted of four distinct
      sections, with parallel sayings in sections (1) & (3) and similarly in
      sections (2) & (4).

      Sondergut: in typical reconstructions of Q, most is from Luke and none
      is from Mark; in sQ, most is from Matthew and some is from Mark.

      Order: in Q was very similar to that in Luke; in sQ was nearest to that
      in Matthew.

      Jesus as "Son": Q had both "Son of Man" and "Son of God"; sQ had only
      "Son of Man".

      Attitude to Gentiles: Q had mixed messages; sQ regarded them as
      foreigners.

      Place of origin: Q originated somewhere in Galilee; sQ originated in
      Jerusalem.

      Editor: Q unknown; sQ James the brother of Jesus.

      Language: Q Greek; sQ Aramaic or Hebrew.

      Date: Q ca. 45-75 CE; sQ ca. 45 CE.

      Historical reference: Q none; sQ Papias' "TA LOGIA".

      Ron Price

      Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

      e-mail: ron.price@...

      Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
    • Maluflen@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/28/2002 5:26:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ron.price@virgin.net writes: The acuity
      Message 2 of 5 , May 28, 2002
        In a message dated 5/28/2002 5:26:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        ron.price@... writes:

        << Editor: Q unknown; sQ James the brother of Jesus. >>

        The acuity involved in distinguishing between the work of the apostle Matthew
        (Papias) and that of James the brother of Jesus (Price) is positively
        stunning. I wouldn't have thought we know enough about either of these
        gentlemen to pull off such a coup. Whence your confidence here? And why not
        extract a name from the hat to attach to Q as well, rather than settling for
        the awkward admission that the author thereof is "unknown"?

        Leonard Maluf

        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Ron Price
        ... Leonard, The name wasn t taken from a hat. My argument is as follows: (1) The reconstructed sayings source is entirely Jewish in outlook. (2) Gal 2:12;
        Message 3 of 5 , May 28, 2002
          I wrote:

          >> Editor: Q unknown; sQ James the brother of Jesus. >>

          Leonard Maluf replied:

          >The acuity involved in distinguishing between the work of the apostle Matthew
          >(Papias) and that of James the brother of Jesus (Price) is positively
          >stunning. I wouldn't have thought we know enough about either of these
          >gentlemen to pull off such a coup. Whence your confidence here? And why not
          >extract a name from the hat to attach to Q as well, rather than settling for
          >the awkward admission that the author thereof is "unknown"?

          Leonard,

          The name wasn't taken from a hat. My argument is as follows:

          (1) The reconstructed sayings source is entirely Jewish in outlook.
          (2) Gal 2:12; Acts 15:13,19f. indicate that James the brother of Jesus
          was the undisputed leader of the dispersed community of Jews who
          followed Jesus (i.e of all the Christian Jews).
          (3) It is clear from Gal 2:10; 2 Cor 8&9; Rom 15:25 that the leaders of
          this group had a special concern for the poor. Paul took great pains to
          organize a collection for them.
          (4) A direct consequence of realizing that the Temptation and John the
          Baptist material was not a part of the sayings source is that the first
          sQ saying in both Matthew and Luke (and therefore presumably also in sQ)
          is seen to have been "Blessed are you poor".
          (5) We thus have a Jewish set of sayings attributed to Jesus in which
          the most prominent saying is seen to reflect a prime concern of the
          leaders of the Christian Jews.
          (6) It is difficult to believe that the authoritative James would have
          allowed anyone else in his community to have the final say in a document
          which presented the sayings of his brother, and which no doubt also
          would have been adjusted to convey some of his own beliefs, even if the
          first draft had been delegated e.g. to Matthew. Thus I conclude that
          James was probably the editor.

          Ron Price

          Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

          e-mail: ron.price@...

          Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • Jeffrey Glen Jackson
          Have you tried comparing the vocabulary and style of your sQ to that of the Epistle of James (assuming it was written by the same James)? ...
          Message 4 of 5 , May 28, 2002
            Have you tried comparing the vocabulary and style of your sQ
            to that of the Epistle of James (assuming it was written by the
            same James)?

            ><> Jeffrey Glen Jackson, son of Albert, son of George, son of <><
            ><> Henry, son of Miles, son of Randolph, son of Ephraim, son of <><
            ><> Thomas, son of John, son of Thomas, .... sonne of Jack. <><
            mailto:jeff@... http://www.jeff-jackson.com
            "The blithe 'reconstruction' not only of Q, not only of its different
            stages of composition, but even of complete communities whose
            beliefs are accurately reflected in these different stages, betokens
            a naive willingness to believe in anything as long as it is nothing
            like Mark (let alone Paul)." N. T. Wright




            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • Ron Price
            ... Jeffrey, No, I haven t tried this. But I would expect the style to be different because most critical scholars think the Epistle of James could not have
            Message 5 of 5 , May 29, 2002
              Jeffrey Glen Jackson wrote:

              >Have you tried comparing the vocabulary and style of your sQ
              >to that of the Epistle of James (assuming it was written by the
              >same James)?

              Jeffrey,

              No, I haven't tried this. But I would expect the style to be different
              because most critical scholars think the Epistle of James could not have
              been written by Jesus' brother.
              Long ago Donald Guthrie pointed out a series of similarities between
              the epistle and the Sermon on the Mount, which at first glance seems to
              support an early origin for the epistle. However, of the 14 parallels
              which I noted from his lecture, only 9 turn out to be from sQ. 4 are
              Matthean (M) and 1 is Matthean redaction of sQ. Being skeptical of the
              authenticity of the M material leads me to the conclusion that James was
              probably dependent (directly or indirectly) on Matthew's gospel for the
              parallels.

              Ron Price

              Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

              e-mail: ron.price@...

              Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.