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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: A strange Coptic Mt

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  • Stephen C. Carlson
    ... Why do you think it is a misreading? The image at the web site is very clear and there is no N after the P. Furthermore, why do think that the
    Message 1 of 14 , May 26 8:23 PM
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      At 06:35 PM 5/26/2002 -0700, John Lupia wrote:
      >Schenke says that the colophon at end in Greek reads:
      >"P EUAGGELION N KATA MAQEOC". This seems to me to be
      >a misreading. It probably reads: "PN EUAGGELION KATA
      >MAQEOC" where PN is an abbreviation for "spiritual"
      >characterizing the Gospel as such in the colophon.

      Why do you think it is a misreading? The image at
      the web site is very clear and there is no N after
      the P.

      Furthermore, why do think that the subscription is
      in Greek instead of Coptic?

      Stephen Carlson
      --
      Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
      Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
      "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


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    • John Lupia
      ... It depends on how you read the text. Is it strictly linear along the horizontal axis as you anticipate or has the scribe used a convention for making an
      Message 2 of 14 , May 26 11:23 PM
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        "Stephen C. Carlson" wrote:

        > Why do you think it is a misreading? The image at
        > the web site is very clear and there is no N after
        > the P.
        >
        > Furthermore, why do think that the subscription is
        > in Greek instead of Coptic?

        It depends on how you read the text. Is it strictly
        linear along the horizontal axis as you anticipate or
        has the scribe used a convention for making an
        abbreviation on the vertical axis? Scribes sometimes
        placed one letter atop another joined by a ligature or
        horizontal line. Obviously this form of abbreviation
        falls on two lines and each letter appears as the
        first of each line. What contributes to ambiguity in
        this case is the fact that the scribe made 11 such
        strokes in the colophon. The second line has four
        strokes above and below and the third line has three
        below. If the first stroke in line two was a ligature
        to join the P & N then it becomes possibly an
        abbreviation for PNEUMATIKOS, otherwise the letters
        appear meaningless and enigmatic with some explanation
        due. As for the Greek title in Mesokemic, I would
        tend to think this was normal since many Greek
        features are retained in the Oxyrhynchite or Middle
        Egyptian dialect.

        =====
        John N. Lupia
        501 North Avenue B-1
        Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA

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      • Wieland Willker
        ... I don t know Coptic, but acc. to Schenke this is the last part of verse 20 with the meaning of this Aion , equivalent to the Greek TOU AIWNOS TOUTOU. He
        Message 3 of 14 , May 27 2:57 AM
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          John N. Lupia wrote:
          > What I find curious is the ligature above this MPEIEWN
          > inscribed within the simple classical floral motif
          > embellishment that preceded the more decorative and
          > ornamental flourish. Since the line above MPE
          > signifies a word and the line above IEWN signifies
          > another, it presents an interesting puzzle to
          > decipher. I wonder if it could signify the
          > Metropolitan of Hieropolis?

          I don't know Coptic, but acc. to Schenke this is the last part of verse 20
          with the meaning "of this Aion", equivalent to the Greek TOU AIWNOS TOUTOU.

          He has no note on the colophon.

          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ---------------
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie


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        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... Well, there is the straightforward way and the speculative way. Both the initial P and the N/ below it on the next line are very common Coptic words, and
          Message 4 of 14 , May 27 3:40 AM
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            At 11:23 PM 5/26/2002 -0700, John Lupia wrote:
            > "Stephen C. Carlson" wrote:
            >> Why do you think it is a misreading? The image at
            >> the web site is very clear and there is no N after
            >> the P.
            >>
            >> Furthermore, why do think that the subscription is
            >> in Greek instead of Coptic?
            >
            >It depends on how you read the text.

            Well, there is the straightforward way and the
            speculative way. Both the initial P and the N/
            below it on the next line are very common Coptic
            words, and the entire subscription makes sense
            in Coptic. Therefore, I take the subscription
            in its straightforward way, just as Schenke does.
            Your proposed corrections to Schenke are too
            speculative for me to adopt.

            Stephen Carlson

            --
            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
            Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


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          • John Lupia
            Synoptic-L@bham.ac.uk ... Schenke did not translate this as of this age but of this Aion . Given this, if it is a personal name suggested by the
            Message 5 of 14 , May 27 8:43 AM
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              Synoptic-L@...

              Wieland Willker wrote:

              > I don't know Coptic, but acc. to Schenke this is the
              > last part of verse 20
              > with the meaning "of this Aion", equivalent to the
              > Greek TOU AIWNOS TOUTOU.

              Schenke did not translate this as "of this age" but
              "of this Aion". Given this, if it is a personal name
              suggested by the capitalization of Aion or reference
              to an entelechy or aeon then it is probably certain
              that this is an apocryphal Gospel, perhaps similar, in
              a sense, to the Ebionite Gospel of Matthew since Aion
              � The Lord of Light, as the Manda d'Haye is Gnostic.
              For more on Aion see Giovanni Casadio, "Dall�Aion
              ellenistico agli eoni-angeli gnostici," Avallon, XLII,
              2, (1997): 45-62; Giovanni Casadio, From Hellenistic
              Aion to Gnostic Aiones, in D. Zeller (Hrsg.), Religion
              im Wandel der Kosmologien (Frankfurt /M, 1999):
              175-190.

              Merkelbach and Totti-Gemund have pointed out that:
              "The highest god and creator of the world is called by
              many names. One of his names is Aiwn. When the vowels
              were rearranged, the name of the one Jewish God, Iaw,
              was produced. While Aion, the great god that lived in
              Alexandria, was Greek, [he] was Iao himself to the
              many Jews in [Egypt]'" (See Reinhold Merkelbach and
              Maria Totti (Gemund), Abrasax : ausgewahlte Papyri
              religiosen und magischen Inhalts (Abhandlungen der
              Rheinisch-Westfalischen Akademie der Wissenschaften.
              Sonderreihe Papyrologica Coloniensia,Opladen :
              Westdeutscher Verlag, 1990-1996:146)



              =====
              John N. Lupia
              501 North Avenue B-1
              Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
              http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

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            • Maluflen@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/27/2002 11:50:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jlupia2@yahoo.com writes: I don t know Coptic, but acc. to Schenke this is the ... Schenke
              Message 6 of 14 , May 27 9:39 AM
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                In a message dated 5/27/2002 11:50:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                jlupia2@... writes:

                << > I don't know Coptic, but acc. to Schenke this is the
                > last part of verse 20
                > with the meaning "of this Aion", equivalent to the
                > Greek TOU AIWNOS TOUTOU.

                Schenke did not translate this as "of this age" but
                "of this Aion". Given this, if it is a personal name
                suggested by the capitalization of Aion or reference
                to an entelechy or aeon then it is probably certain
                that this is an apocryphal Gospel, perhaps similar, in
                a sense, to the Ebionite Gospel of Matthew since Aion
                – The Lord of Light, as the Manda d'Haye is Gnostic.
                For more on Aion see Giovanni Casadio, "Dall’Aion
                ellenistico agli eoni-angeli gnostici," Avallon, XLII,
                2, (1997): 45-62; Giovanni Casadio, From Hellenistic
                Aion to Gnostic Aiones, in D. Zeller (Hrsg.), Religion
                im Wandel der Kosmologien (Frankfurt /M, 1999):
                175-190.>>


                John, doesn't the demonstrative adjective (TOUTOU) argue against translating
                AIWN as a proper noun or personal name?


                Leonard Maluf

                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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              • Wieland Willker
                ... Sorry, but you seem to use the same pills that Yuri Kuchinsky is injecting regularly. For those interested in some details of this MS, I will post a mail
                Message 7 of 14 , May 27 1:20 PM
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                  John Lupia wrote:
                  > Schenke did not translate this as "of this age" but
                  > "of this Aion". Given this, if it is a personal name
                  > suggested by the capitalization of Aion or reference
                  > to an entelechy or aeon then it is probably certain
                  > that this is an apocryphal Gospel

                  Sorry, but you seem to use the same pills that Yuri Kuchinsky is injecting regularly.

                  For those interested in some details of this MS, I will post a mail to the TC list soon.

                  Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><
                  ------------------------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/


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                • jlupia2
                  ... is injecting regularly. ... Schande auf Ihnen! Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@bham.ac.uk
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 27 3:24 PM
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                    "Wieland Willker" wrote:

                    > Sorry, but you seem to use the same pills that Yuri Kuchinsky
                    is injecting regularly.
                    >


                    Schande auf Ihnen!


                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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