## Re: [Synoptic-L] a new approach to the correlations

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• ... I am not at all sure that you are right. As I have written previously, your arguments seem to me to be confused when you appeal to these macro- categories.
Message 1 of 24 , Jan 3, 2002
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Brian Wilson writes:

>
>These macro categories provide a clearer look at effects we want to
>single out than individual categories.
>
I am not at all sure that you are right. As I have written previously,
your arguments seem to me to be confused when you appeal to these macro-
categories. So far you have not shown that they take us any further than
considering correlations of non-macro categories.

Hello Brian,

In some cases there are two clear, and reasonable explanations for a
correlation in an individual category, and only one of those is a possible
explanation for the macro-category. Thus the macro-category isolates the
one effect better.

It is a superior experimental design, if you will.

Brian:

202-200 is an observed significant positive, and, as I have shown, all
observed significant positives can be easily accounted for by the new
approach. Moreover 102-200 is observed to be a weak positive
correlation. Since (102 + 202)-200 is formed by combining 102-200 and
202-200, it is therefore hardly surprising that (102 + 202)-200 is also
a positive correlation, is it?

Dave: No, its not surprising, given the two subcategories. But your idea
would predict 102-200 should be negative.
102 and 202 are the artificially separated categories. 102 is some words in
passages of Luke, 201 is the rest of the words. 102+202 is the whole
passage, it is not an artificial combination.

There has been no explanation yet proposed that could explain this.
If you believe your method then can please explain how, in terms of full
sections of Matthew agreeing with different full sections of Luke, without
them reflecting the style of a common source.

Brian:

Because the correlation which you describe is a combination of the two
correlations considered above, one between Matthew and sondergut
Matthew, and the other between Matthew and the double tradition in
Matthew, and because the words of the double tradition in Matthew are
exactly the same as the words of the double tradition in Luke by
definition of "double tradition". There is no need for any appeal to a
hypothesis of a positive correlation being the result of the use of a
common source. Even if Matthew completely destroys the style of his
source material, and Luke also, the observed correlations can easily be
explained on the new approach.

Dave:

That is not correct. I am comparing Matthew to Luke, plain and simple. I am
not comparing Matthew's words to Matthew's words in and way. On the LTH,
for example. The words in 102+202 are either Luke's words, or LT words. 200
is either Matthew's words, or LT's words. If they completely destroy any
source evidence, as you claim, then one is all Luke, the other all Matthew.
There is no explanation for a significant positive.

Dave Gentile
Riverside, Illinois
M.S. Physics
Ph.D. Management Science candidate

Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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• David Gentile wrote -- ... Brian Wilson replied -- ... Dave Gentile answered -- ... Absolutely not. My hypothesis does no such thing. My hypothesis is that IF
Message 2 of 24 , Jan 4, 2002
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David Gentile wrote --
>
>Again, forget HBB categories, these are full sections of Luke, "the
>double tradition" in Luke, not selected words of it that happen to
>agree with Mt, correlates significantly with sondergut Matthew.
>We have full pieces of text from Luke, correlating with different full
>pieces of text in Matthew. Why?
>
Brian Wilson replied --
>
>202-200 is an observed significant positive, and, as I have shown, all
>observed significant positives can be easily accounted for by the new
>approach. Moreover 102-200 is observed to be a weak positive
>correlation. Since (102 + 202)-200 is formed by combining 102-200 and
>202-200, it is therefore hardly surprising that (102 + 202)-200 is also
>a positive correlation, is it?
>
>
>No, its not surprising, given the two subcategories. But your idea
>would predict 102-200 should be negative.
>
Absolutely not. My hypothesis does no such thing. My hypothesis is that
IF a significant positive or significant is observed, THEN this can
easily be accounted for by supposing the same synoptist has redacted the
categories, and that IF a significant negative is observed, THEN this
can be easily accounted for by supposing that different synoptists have
redacted the material. It is a gross mis-representation of my hypothesis
to overlook the conditional "IF" here. I wrote in my statement of the
hypothesis --
>
>The approach I am suggesting here is based on a different assumption --
>that if two different types of material show a significant positive
>correlation, then this is consistent with **the same synoptist having
>redacted** the material concerned, and that if two different types show
>a significant negative correlation, then this is consistent with
>**different synoptists having redacted**.
>
Note the phrase "is consistent with". There is no suggestion that any
correlation must necessarily be significant or not significant, positive
or negative. There could be any number of reasons why an observed
correlation is neither significant positive nor significant negative, on
my approach. In the case of 102/200 being mildly positive, this might,
for instance, be the consequence of Luke having supplied a significant
proportion of the category 102 words in the double tradition passages in
Luke. These would be in Luke's style, not Matthew's, and hence the
resulting correlation will be a weaker, rather than a significant,
positive. Another possibility is that a weaker correlation has been
produced as a result of Matthew omitting words that Luke retained,
thereby weakening the correlation between Matthew's words in the double
>
>102 and 202 are the artificially separated categories. 102 is some
>words in passages of Luke, 201 [202?] is the rest of the words. 102+202
>is the whole passage, it is not an artificial combination.
>
I think you are confused here. If 102 and 202 are artificially
separated, then we should throw away our HHB Concordance, surely. You
seem to be suggesting that a passage with category 102 words is only in
Luke. This is not true, is it? If the passage were not in Matthew also,
then the words would have to be categorized as 002, not 102. The
passages containing 102 and 202 are, by definition, necessarily all in
Matthew as well as in Luke. Also, it is not the case that the passages
in Luke contain only 102 and 202 words. Luke redacts his source
material, and part of this redaction was frequently to supply phrases or
whole sentences of his own within passages of material. It would seem
that Luke frequently contains the odd phrase or sentence of his own in a
double tradition passage. The words of these sentences or phrases are
shown as 002 in the HHB Concordance. So passages in the double tradition
in Luke are frequently 202, 102 and 002 material, just as passages in
the double tradition in Matthew are frequently 202, 201 and 002
material. It is not true, therefore, that a double tradition passage in
Luke must be entirely 102 + 202.
>
>I am comparing Matthew to Luke, plain and simple. I am not comparing
>Matthew's words to Matthew's words in any way.
>
I understand you to mean that correlating the (102 + 202) words with the
200 words does not entail comparing Matthew's words with Matthew's
words. For this to be true, however, none of the 202 words in (102 +
202) can be Matthew's words. Yet, by definition of 202, all 202 words
are the same words in Matthew and Luke, and therefore are Matthew's
words. On some documentary hypotheses, (for instance the Farrer
Hypothesis) Luke actually took these words from Matthew! I do not
understand why you think that 202 words in Luke are not 202 words in
Matthew. If they are, then you are comparing a combination of non-
Matthean and Matthean words also in Luke, with words in Matthew only.
>
>On the LTH, for example, the words in 102+202 are either Luke's words,
>or LT words.
>
It seems to me that you are still confused. They are either Luke's words
or Matthew's words or LT words. 202 words are necessarily in Matthew, by
definition of "202". Every single 202 word was in Matthew, according to
the LTH.
>
>200 is either Matthew's words, or LT's words.
>
Agreed.
>
>If they completely destroy any source evidence, as you claim
>
I do not make such a claim. It is possible that either has done so,
particularly Luke, but it is not necessarily the case. It is a
possibility that is not ruled out by my approach. It is neither safe nor
wise to assume that no synoptist has redacted his material sufficiently
heavily to remove the style of the writer of any source he used. It is
a very real possibility that Luke and Matthew have so heavily redacted
their source material, that it is not possible to discern the style of
any source they had in common. J. S. Hawkins wrote, "a renewed
examination has failed to produce any expressions which I could
definitely label as characteristic of Q" ("Horae Synopticae", p.113).
Moreover, the recent article in the "Expository Times" by Dr Cyril Rodd,
a staunch advocate of the 2DH, finds that it is impossible to determine
the extent of Q. In this case, it is impossible to determine the style
of Q, assuming that it existed. On the 2DH, Mark was the common source
of Mt and Lk. I would suggest that if Mark had been lost, then, assuming
we knew which passages Mt and Lk had obtained from "lost" Mark, it would
not be possible to discern "lost" Mark's style. The point is that
clearly the HHBC categories can be used to examine the style of the
individual synoptist, but there is serious doubt that they can sensibly
be used to identify the styles of any hypothetical source any synoptist
may have used.
>
> - then one is all Luke, the other all Matthew.
>
This may be the truth and nothing but the truth, but it is not the whole
truth, is it? The 102 words are Luke, the 202 words are both Matthew and
Luke, and the 200 words are Matthew. Also, there are some 002 words in
Lukan double tradition passages, and some 200 words in Matthean double
>
>There is no explanation for a significant positive.
>
I have already given an explanation on my approach of why the words of
202 Matthew and Luke, together with the category 102 words of Luke, have
a significant positive correlation with the category 200 words in
Matthew (see above). My approach easily accounts for 202-200 being a
significant positive correlation. It is easily shown to be consistent
with 102-202 being a weak positive correlation. If (102 + 202)-200 is a
significant positive, then, on the new approach, this is the consequence
of 202-200 being significant positive and 102-200 being weakly positive,
these two correlations combining to give a significant positive for (102
+ 202)-200.

The basic assumption of my approach is that if different types of
material show a significant positive correlation, then this is
consistent with the same synoptist having been the redactor, whereas if
two different types show a significant negative correlation, this is
consistent with different synoptists having been the redactors. On this
view, we have no need to appeal to any hypothesis concerning a common
source to account for any of the observed significant positive or
significant negative HHBC correlations. One reason for holding this
approach is that I think it is unsafe and unwise to assume that no
synoptist has redacted the style of his source material sufficiently to
destroy any evidence of the style of any hypothetical source he may have
used. In my view, if a synoptic documentary hypothesis is first assumed,
then the HHBC correlations are an excellent tool for investigating the
style of each synoptist, but probably useless for testing synoptic
documentary hypotheses.

Best wishes,
BRIAN WILSON

>HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
> "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
> speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
_

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• Hello Brian, Your reasoning does not make logical sense to me. Let s take a hypothesis where 202 was not written by Matthew, say LTH or 2ST. The only way
Message 3 of 24 , Jan 4, 2002
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Hello Brian,

Your reasoning does not make logical sense to me.
Let's take a hypothesis where 202 was not written by Matthew, say LTH or
2ST.
The only way Matthew can "imprint his style" on 202 is by selecting words.
Matthew can not have authored any of 202, but by favoring some words over
others, he
could leave his mark. In that case 102 would contain words Matthew
By adding 102+202 together, there is no possible means for Matthew to
imprint a style on the joint category.
Any hint of Matthew's favoritism is obliterated by including both
categories.
The joint category contains source words (Matthew favored or not), and Luke
words, but there is no way for Matthew's favoritism of words to show up
here.

Dave Gentile
Riverside, Illinois
M.S. Physics
Ph.D. Management Science candidate

Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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• ... This statement is undeniably true, because it s been constructed that way. All current significant negatives meet one of the three conditions described
Message 4 of 24 , Jan 5, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote:

> (Statement 2) A correlation shows a significant negative only if either
> (1) the two categories do not include the same gospel (for example,
> 120/112), or (2) one category includes all three synoptists, and the
> other only Luke, or (3) one category includes Matthew and Mark but not
> Luke, and the other includes Mark and Luke but not Matthew.

This statement is undeniably true, because it's been constructed that way.
All current significant negatives meet one of the three conditions described
here. However, there are many other pairings of two categories that meet
one of these conditions that do not have negative results, so Statement (2)
cannot be used to predict any results (It's like saying that all owls are
birds. A true statement, but it doesn't help determine whether mice or
salmon are birds). However, Brian then explains the 3 cases above as
follows:

> Case (1) is accounted for by supposing that two different styles have
> been imposed by two synoptists redacting differently, and case (2) by
> supposing that the wording present in all three synoptists would be in
> words significantly different from Luke's style since they would be
> words common to the styles of all three and therefore lack many of the
> distinguishing words in Luke, whereas the words in Luke only would have
> retained the words of Luke's style, this having the same effect as one
> category having been redacted by one synoptist, and the other having
> been redacted by another, and case (3) by supposing that the difference
> between the words of each category would have been the difference
> between the style of Matthew and the style of Mark, and that this would
> have had the same effect as one synoptist having redacted one category
> of material, and another synoptist having redacted the other.

I have problems with both Case (2) and Case (3), because they are not
symmetrical with respect to the three synoptists. So, taking just case (2)
for now I would expect to see the same effect for each of Matthew and Mark
as well. In addition, based on just the reasoning given above I would also
expect to see more negative Lukan categories than are currently found. For
case (2) I would expect to see all the following being negative:

222/112, 222/102, 222/012, 222/002,
222/211, 222/210, 222/201, 222/200,
222/121, 222/120, 222/021, 222/020

Instead, what we currently have is (? marks values of extremely low
confidence):

222/112 = -0.45 (significant)
222/102 = ?
222/012 = ?
222/002 = -0.33 (significant)

222/211 = ?
222/210 = -0.16 (at very low confidence)
222/201 = ?
222/200 = +0.17 (at low confidence)

222/121 = ?
222/120 = ?
222/021 = ?
222/020 = +0.27 (at low confidence)

In other words only 2 cases out of 12 possible categories actually come up
significantly negative at the moment. Even if we restrict ourselves to just
Luke, only 2 out of the 4 cases matching Brian's description are negative.
So, before case (2) can be seriously evaluated I think Brian needs to
explain:

1 Why 222/102 and 222/012 do not behave like 222/112 and 222/002;
2 Why case (2) can be applied to Luke but NOT to Matthew or Mark.

Finally, the same considerations also apply to Brian's case (3), and so we
also need an explanation of why case (3) should not be applied to all
equivalent pairings of the synoptists.

Without these explanations I find Brian's hypothesis full of holes. It is
incapable of being falsified currently because it has been defined
specifically to match just the current set of significant positive and
negative results, and makes NO predications whatsoever regarding results
that we are still awaiting. For example, if Brian expanded case (1) above
to state that ALL correlations between two categories that do not include
the same gospel will be negative when all the results are in then that would
be a big step forward. However, at present Brian's approach has been
constructed so loosely as to be able to accommodate ANY values in the
results that currently have low confidence. For the approach to be
considered seriously I think that these holes need to be plugged.

Dave Inglis
david@...
3538 O'Connor Drive
Lafayette, CA, USA

Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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• ... Brian If 200 and 202 are alike because both have been redacted by Matthew, then according to your approach 201 and 202 are alike for exactly the same
Message 5 of 24 , Jan 5, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote:

> On this view, "the same words" indicate the same synoptist as redactor,
> and "different words" indicate different synoptists having redacted. If
> your assumption is correct, then my approach should simply grind to a
> halt if it is tried. It should fail to account easily for at least some
> of the significant correlations. In fact, however, it easily accounts
> for every single one of them, including those which have provided so
> much difficulty under your approach. You write reams on "What IS going
> on with 221 and 211?" On my approach this requires only one sentence --
> that the correlation 221-211 is a significant positive because each type
> of material has been redacted by the same synoptist, Matthew. On my
> approach, every significant positive correlation can be explained on the
> assumption that the two types of material concerned have been redacted
> by the same synoptist. There are no exceptions.
> >
> >For example in 200-202, we could claim that 200 is written by Matthew,
> >and 202 contains words that Matthew found in his source that were
> >pleasing to Matthew. Therefore both might look like "Matthew". This is
> >a concern that Mark Goodacre had.
> >
> Mark Goodacre's concern was basically the same as mine, I would suggest.
> It was to question the basic assumption of your approach that "different
> words" are the result of different authors of sources. In fact the
> significant positive observed between 200 and 202 is, again, very easy
> to explain on the new approach as the result of the same author,
> Matthew, having correlated the material of both types.

Brian

If 200 and 202 are alike because both have been redacted by Matthew, then
according to your approach 201 and 202 are alike for exactly the same
reason. How then do you account for 102 and 202 being alike, when according
to your approach 202 must have been redacted by Luke!

Dave Inglis
david@...
3538 O'Connor drive
Lafayette, CA, USA

Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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• ... This seems to be totally confusing to me. It is true that 202 words are the same in both Matthew s Gospel and Luke s Gospel (by definition), but that
Message 6 of 24 , Jan 5, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote in reply to Dave Gentile:

> I understand you to mean that correlating the (102 + 202) words with the
> 200 words does not entail comparing Matthew's words with Matthew's
> words. For this to be true, however, none of the 202 words in (102 +
> 202) can be Matthew's words. Yet, by definition of 202, all 202 words
> are the same words in Matthew and Luke, and therefore are Matthew's
> words.

This seems to be totally confusing to me. It is true that 202 words are the
same in both Matthew's Gospel and Luke's Gospel (by definition), but that
doesn't mean they are therefore Matthew's words, since Matthew could have
got these words from any number of different places, including for example
the LT. It appears to me that you are confusing yourself and everybody else
by using terms such as "Matthew's words" when all you really mean is "words
in Matthew's Gospel".

> On some documentary hypotheses, (for instance the Farrer
> Hypothesis) Luke actually took these words from Matthew! I do not
> understand why you think that 202 words in Luke are not 202 words in
> Matthew.

I see no problem with this. Dave Gentile is fully aware that they are both
in Luke and Matthew. He's just confused by your use of terms such as
"Matthew's words" (see above).

> If they are, then you are comparing a combination of non-
> Matthean and Matthean words also in Luke, with words in Matthew only.

Let me here add a plea that in future no-one uses terms like "Matthean
words" or "Matthew's words" if what is actually meant is "words in Matthew"
or "words in Matthew's Gospel".
> >
> >On the LTH, for example, the words in 102+202 are either Luke's words,
> >or LT words.

Here I think Dave means "words added by Luke" or "words taken from the LT".
If so, then his meaning seems perfectly clear.

> >
> It seems to me that you are still confused. They are either Luke's words
> or Matthew's words or LT words. 202 words are necessarily in Matthew, by
> definition of "202". Every single 202 word was in Matthew, according to
> the LTH.

If the LTH assumes that Luke and Matthew did not use each others work in any
way, then either 202 contains words taken from the LT, or exactly the same
changes made independently by both Matthew and Luke (possible, but very
unlikely). However, it is impossible on the LTH for any words in 202 to be
either "Luke's words" or "Matthew's words" (meaning created by Luke and
Matthew) except for identical chance changes.

Finally, what do you mean by the last sentence? Not only WERE the 202 words
in Matthew, but they still ARE, and are so by definition, completely
independently of any hypothesis.

Dave Inglis
david@...
3538 O'Connor Drive
Lafayette, CA, USA

Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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• David Inglis wrote -- ... Dave, 201 and 202 being a significant correlation is consistent with Mt having redacted the wording of material found in the double
Message 7 of 24 , Jan 6, 2002
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David Inglis wrote --
>
>If 200 and 202 are alike because both have been redacted by Matthew,
>then according to your approach 201 and 202 are alike for exactly the
>same reason.
>
Dave,

201 and 202 being a significant correlation is consistent with Mt having
redacted the wording of material found in the double tradition, whether
omitted by Luke (so producing 201 words) or included by Luke (so
producing 202 words).
>
>How then do you account for 102 and 202 being alike, when according to
>your approach 202 must have been redacted by Luke!
>
By exactly the same line of reasoning. "102" is simply "201" in reverse,
that is with Mt and Lk interchanged. Just interchange Mt and Lk
throughout my previous sentence above. The result is --

102 and 202 being a significant correlation is consistent with Lk having
redacted the wording of material found in the double tradition, whether
omitted by Matthew (so producing 102 words) or included by Matthew (so
producing 202 words).

The two statements are symmetrical in Mt and Lk. Where is the problem in
either of them? I really do not see any difficulty.

Best wishes,
BRIAN WILSON

>HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
> "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
> speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
_

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• Dave Gentile wrote -- ... Brian Wilson replied to Dave Gentile -- ... Dave Inglis comments on Brian Wilson s reply -- ... Dave, Thanks for pointing out what
Message 8 of 24 , Jan 6, 2002
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Dave Gentile wrote --
>
>I am comparing Matthew to Luke, plain and simple. I am not comparing
>Matthew's words to Matthew's words in any way. On the LTH, for example,
>the words in 102+202 are either Luke's words, or LT words. 200 is
>either Matthew's words, or LT's words.
>
Brian Wilson replied to Dave Gentile --
>
>I understand you to mean that correlating the (102 + 202) words with
>the 200 words does not entail comparing Matthew's words with Matthew's
>words. For this to be true, however, none of the 202 words in (102 +
>202) can be Matthew's words. Yet, by definition of 202, all 202 words
>are the same words in Matthew and Luke, and therefore are Matthew's
>words. On some documentary hypotheses, (for instance the Farrer
>Hypothesis) Luke actually took these words from Matthew! I do not
>understand why you think that 202 words in Luke are not 202 words in
>Matthew. If they are, then you are comparing a combination of non-
>Matthean and Matthean words also in Luke, with words in Matthew only.
>
>
>It appears to me that you are confusing yourself and everybody else by
>using terms such as "Matthew's words" when all you really mean is
>words in Matthew's Gospel".
>
Dave,
Thanks for pointing out what now seems to me to have been my mis-
understanding. I understood Dave Gentile's phrase "Matthew's words"
(quoted above) to mean simply words in Matthew, and I used his phrase in
this sense in my reply to echo what I thought he meant. If, in fact, he
did not mean this, but meant rather "words supplied by Matthew in his
redaction of his source material" then I would suggest Dave Gentile
should have used a phrase such as "words supplied by Matthew" to make
his meaning clearer.

May I make a plea that anyone who wants to refer to words supplied by
Matthew as he redacted his source material should take care not to use
the ambiguous phrase "Matthew's words"? Something like "words supplied
by Matthew" would perhaps be appropriate.

Brian Wilson continued to Dave Gentile --
>
>Every single 202 word was in Matthew, according to the LTH.
>
Dave Inglis commented on this --
>
>Finally, what do you mean by the last sentence? Not only WERE the 202
>words in Matthew, but they still ARE, and are so by definition,
>completely independently of any hypothesis.
>
What I said is fully consistent with what you say. I meant that,
according to the LTH, at the moment in the past when both Mt and Lk had
both been written by having independently selected material from the LT,
then every single 202 word was in Matthew. If the 202 words ARE in
Matthew now, then they WERE in Matthew at that time.

Best wishes,
BRIAN WILSON

>HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
> "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
> speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
_

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• Brian Wilson wrote -- ... Dave Inglis comments -- ... Dave, On the contrary, the statement is falsifiable. I understand that the data for Pi - Omega has been
Message 9 of 24 , Jan 6, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote --
>
>(Statement 2) A correlation shows a significant negative only if either
>(1) the two categories do not include the same gospel (for example,
>120/112), or (2) one category includes all three synoptists, and the
>other only Luke, or (3) one category includes Matthew and Mark but not
>Luke, and the other includes Mark and Luke but not Matthew.
>
>
>This statement is undeniably true, because it's been constructed that
>way.
>
Dave,
On the contrary, the statement is falsifiable. I understand that
the data for Pi - Omega has been collated, and the full results may be
available soon. If these were to produce a negative correlation for,
say, 220-202, then this would be against all three conditions given
above. Dozens of other possible falsifications could be cited for
Statement 2, and also for Statement 1.
>
>All current significant negatives meet one of the three conditions
>described here.
>
I agree. That was what I intended.
>
>However, there are many other pairings of two categories that meet
>one of these conditions that do not have negative results
>
which is precisely why I stated the three conditions. I try not to write
nonsense.
>
>so Statement (2) cannot be used to predict any results
>
220-202 will not be a significant negative when the full results are
available. Many other such predictions can be made.
>
>It's like saying that all owls are birds. A true statement, but it
>doesn't help determine whether mice or salmon are birds.
>
Since your simile refers to a false statement, the statement is
presumably nothing like saying that all owls are birds.
>
>However, Brian then explains the 3 cases above as follows:
>>
>> Case (1) is accounted for by supposing that two different styles have
>> been imposed by two synoptists redacting differently, and case (2) by
>> supposing that the wording present in all three synoptists would be
>>in words significantly different from Luke's style since they would be
>> words common to the styles of all three and therefore lack many of
>>the distinguishing words in Luke, whereas the words in Luke only would
>>have retained the words of Luke's style, this having the same effect
>>as one category having been redacted by one synoptist, and the other
>>having been redacted by another, and case (3) by supposing that the
>>difference between the words of each category would have been the
>>difference between the style of Matthew and the style of Mark, and
>>that this would have had the same effect as one synoptist having
>>redacted one category of material, and another synoptist having
>>redacted the other.
>
>I have problems with both Case (2) and Case (3), because they are not
>symmetrical with respect to the three synoptists.
>
The observed correlations are not symmetrical with respect to the three
synoptists. So there is no basis for your expectation.
>
>So, taking just case (2) for now I would expect to see the same effect
>for each of Matthew and Mark as well.
>
Since the observed correlations are not symmetrical with respect to the
three synoptists, there is no reason for you to expect any such thing,
or any of the other things you go on to consider (on which I will not
bother to comment further, since the same argument applies to every one
of them).
>
>Without these explanations I find Brian's hypothesis full of holes.
>
The metaphorical holes would seem to have disappeared.
>
>It is incapable of being falsified currently because it has been
>defined specifically to match just the current set of significant
>positive and negative results
>
On the contrary it is not unfalsifiable since, as I have already shown
above, the new approach can be falsified in one fell swoop by the full
>
>and makes NO predications whatsoever regarding results that we are
>still awaiting.
>
Not so, is it? I have shown the opposite to be true.

Thanks, Dave, for doing me the honour of criticizing my approach.

I am still of the view that it is very feasible that Matthew and Luke
have edited their source material so heavily that it is impossible to
discern the style of any source material they had in common. If we
assume the 2DH, they both used Mk, and hypothetical Q. If we did not
have Mk, however, we would not be able significantly to reconstruct the
style of Mk from Mt and Lk. Moreover, assuming Q existed, all we have
for certain that was in Q are the agreements of wording between Mt and
Lk in "minimal Q" in the double tradition. Just as we cannot reconstruct
the style of Mark from Matthew and Luke, so we cannot reconstruct the
style of Q from Matthew and Luke. Some scholars who staunchly affirm the
2DH, explicitly affirm that it is impossible to determine the style of
Q, if it existed. I would suggest, therefore, we should definitely not
be assuming that the observed correlations can be used to check the
existence of documentary sources of the synoptic gospels. My view is
that we should not be thinking in terms of using the observed
correlations to determine the supposed effect of the styles of authors
of sources of the synoptic gospels. Rather we should be using the
observed correlations, together with a synoptic documentary hypothesis,
to understand more fully how each synoptist has redacted the sources
posited on that documentary hypothesis. For instance, if we advocate
the 2DH, then the correlations should be used to understand more fully
how Mt and Lk redacted Mk, and how they redacted Q. This should enable a
deeper understanding, of course, of the approach of each synoptist to
his source material, and therefore provide greater insights into the way
of thinking of each synoptist. In a nut-shell, I see the observed
correlations as a valuable tool for redaction critics, but of no use to
source critics.

Best wishes,
BRIAN WILSON

>HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
> "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
> speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
_

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• ... Yes, the two statements are symmetrical, but they are mutually inconsistent. You have or included by Luke (so producing 202 words) and or included by
Message 10 of 24 , Jan 6, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote:

> David Inglis wrote --
> >
> >If 200 and 202 are alike because both have been redacted by Matthew,
> >then according to your approach 201 and 202 are alike for exactly the
> >same reason.
> >
> Dave,
>
> 201 and 202 being a significant correlation is consistent with Mt having
> redacted the wording of material found in the double tradition, whether
> omitted by Luke (so producing 201 words) or included by Luke (so
> producing 202 words).
> >
> >How then do you account for 102 and 202 being alike, when according to
> >your approach 202 must have been redacted by Luke!
> >
> By exactly the same line of reasoning. "102" is simply "201" in reverse,
> that is with Mt and Lk interchanged. Just interchange Mt and Lk
> throughout my previous sentence above. The result is --
>
> 102 and 202 being a significant correlation is consistent with Lk having
> redacted the wording of material found in the double tradition, whether
> omitted by Matthew (so producing 102 words) or included by Matthew (so
> producing 202 words).
>
> The two statements are symmetrical in Mt and Lk. Where is the problem in
> either of them? I really do not see any difficulty.
>
Yes, the two statements are symmetrical, but they are mutually inconsistent.
You have "or included by Luke (so producing 202 words)" and "or included by
Matthew (so producing 202 words)". This is impossible! Luke and Matthew
cannot together have created 202, and I have no clue as to why you think
that they can. Either 202 came from a different source (e.g. the LT), in
which case neither Luke nor Matthew redacted it, or it one created/redacted
it and the other copied that wording. Perhaps Dave Gentile or someone else
can point out a flaw in my reasoning, because I can't.

Dave Inglis
david@...
3538 O'Connor Drive
Lafayette, CA, USA

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• ... Here s the proof that you have constructed your theory just to meet the current results, because you are ignoring case (2) WRT Matthew and Mark. Case (2)
Message 11 of 24 , Jan 6, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote:

> >>
> >> Case (1) is accounted for by supposing that two different styles have
> >> been imposed by two synoptists redacting differently, and case (2) by
> >> supposing that the wording present in all three synoptists would be
> >>in words significantly different from Luke's style since they would be
> >> words common to the styles of all three and therefore lack many of
> >>the distinguishing words in Luke, whereas the words in Luke only would
> >>have retained the words of Luke's style, this having the same effect
> >>as one category having been redacted by one synoptist, and the other
> >>having been redacted by another, and case (3) by supposing that the
> >>difference between the words of each category would have been the
> >>difference between the style of Matthew and the style of Mark, and
> >>that this would have had the same effect as one synoptist having
> >>redacted one category of material, and another synoptist having
> >>redacted the other.
> >
> >I have problems with both Case (2) and Case (3), because they are not
> >symmetrical with respect to the three synoptists.
> >
> The observed correlations are not symmetrical with respect to the three
> synoptists. So there is no basis for your expectation.

Here's the proof that you have constructed your theory just to meet the
current results, because you are ignoring case (2) WRT Matthew and Mark.
Case (2) above currently works only for Luke, and doesn't work for Matthew
or Mark. Unless you extend your theory to include Matthew and Mark here,
then it is incomplete, i.e. "full of holes".

Dave Inglis
david@...
3538 O'Connor Drive

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• Dave Gentile wrote -- ... Dave, I understand you to mean that generally you do not find my new approach logical, although you give no reasons for this. ...
Message 12 of 24 , Jan 7, 2002
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Dave Gentile wrote --
>
>Your reasoning does not make logical sense to me.
>
Dave,
I understand you to mean that generally you do not find my new
approach logical, although you give no reasons for this.
>
>Let's take a hypothesis where 202 was not written by Matthew, say LTH
>or 2ST.
>
Fine. Let us suppose the LTH -- that each synoptist independently used
the common source (call it "LT" for present purposes) to form his
gospel, redacting the wording of the LT material he used. 202 words are
defined as the same words appearing in Mt and Lk in double tradition
passages. On the LTH, all the passages containing these words were in
the LT. They are material that Mt and Lk independently chose to use from
the LT but which Mk chose to omit.
>
>The only way Matthew can "imprint his style" on 202 is by selecting
>words.
>
On the LTH, if Lk redacted more strongly than Mt, and Mt more strongly
than Mk, the 202 words would tend to be strongly in Luke's style and
fairly strongly in Matthew's style, and to some extent still in the
style of LT (and , to a lesser extent, in the style of Mark).
>
>Matthew can not have authored any of 202, but by favoring some words
>over others, he could leave his mark.
>
The fact that he retained them from LT suggests that the words may
indicate his style to some extent.
>
>In that case 102 would contain words Matthew disfavored.
>
No. The argument is not valid. I may not have a large new Mercedes-Benz
limousine on my drive, but that does not mean I would dis-favour having
one! If 102 are words of which a significant proportion were LT words
that Mt omitted but Lk retained, then they could still have been words
that Mt favoured. He may have omitted phrases containing these words
because of their meaning, irrespective of whether they consisted of
words that he would, or would not, have used when writing in his own
style. In other words, his intention may simply have been to abbreviate
LT material. Of course, other 102 words could have been supplied by
Luke. On the LTH, Luke redacted his LT source material more heavily than
Mt, and even more heavily than Mk. So it is likely that some 102 words
were supplied by Lk. Insofar as the 102 words are words omitted by Mt
but retained by Lk from LT, they may indicate something of the style of
the common source -- LT. Insofar, however, that 102 words were supplied
by Lk and therefore not taken from LT, they may indicate something of
the style of Luke. I think your argument above is therefore not valid.
For if Mt omitted a significant proportion of the 102 words from LT, it
does not follow at all that they were words he would not have used when
writing in his own style. A significant proportion of them, therefore,
may be words that Mt did not disfavour. Generally, the words of 102
would indicate to some extent the style of Luke, and to some extent the
style of LT, but they are not necessarily words that Mt disfavoured.
>
>
Yes. As I have suggested, Luke probably added some of the 102 words
which are therefore an indication of his style. Even those he took from
LT (words that Mt omitted), would be something of an indication of his
style.
>
>By adding 102+202 together, there is no possible means for Matthew to
>imprint a style on the joint category.
>
I understand you to mean two completely separate things -- (1) that the
style of Mt could not be indicated by 102 words, and (2) that the style
of Mt could not be indicated by 202 words. In the case of (1), I would
say that the 102 words can give no positive indication of the style of
Mt, but I would want to add that they are not necessarily words that Mt
would disfavour. I disagree with (2), however, since 202 words are LT
words fairly strongly redacted by Mt, and would therefore probably give
some indication of the style of Mt.
>
>Any hint of Matthew's favoritism is obliterated by including both
>categories.
>
No. This is wrong. The words of 202 would carry some indication of
"Matthew's favoritism" because they are the result of Mt having fairly
strongly redacted the wording of LT material.
>
>The joint category contains source words (Matthew favored or not), and
>Luke words
>
We should deal separately with each category. The 202 words were all
words from LT. Some 102 words were words that Mt omitted from LT and
that Lk retained, but other 102 words were supplied by Lk and were
therefore not LT words.
>
>but there is no way for Matthew's favoritism of words to show up here.
>
I disagree, because Mt fairly strong redacted the wording of LT material
he used, and therefore 202 words would indicate the style of Mt to some
extent.

My basic assumption is that if two different HHBC categories tend to
prefer the same words, there is a good chance that the material
containing them was redacted by the same synoptist. Conversely, if two
different categories tend to prefer different words, there is a good
chance that the material containing them was redacted by different
synoptists. I would suggest that this hypothesis is sufficient to
account easily for all the observed significant correlations between
HHBC categories, and makes very good sense of the results of the
Principle Component Analysis and the Average Linkage Cluster TREE
Analysis. I find this new approach fully consistent with the LTH.

Best wishes,
BRIAN WILSON

>HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
> "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
> speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
_

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• Brian Wilson wrote -- ... Dave Inglis replied -- ... Dave, As a matter of fact you are wrong. That is not what happened. I know, because I was the one who
Message 13 of 24 , Jan 7, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote --
>
>Case (1) is accounted for by supposing that two different styles have
>been imposed by two synoptists redacting differently, and case (2) by
>supposing that the wording present in all three synoptists would be
>in words significantly different from Luke's style since they would be
>words common to the styles of all three and therefore lack many of
>the distinguishing words in Luke, whereas the words in Luke only would
>have retained the words of Luke's style, this having the same effect
>as one category having been redacted by one synoptist, and the other
>having been redacted by another, and case (3) by supposing that the
>difference between the words of each category would have been the
>difference between the style of Matthew and the style of Mark, and
>that this would have had the same effect as one synoptist having
>redacted one category of material, and another synoptist having
>redacted the other.
>
Dave Inglis replied --

>Here's the proof that you have constructed your theory just to meet
>the current results
>
Dave,
As a matter of fact you are wrong. That is not what happened. I
know, because I was the one who formulated the hypothesis. It was
inspired by using my computer to move around columns and rows of entries
in my own table of correlations results. In one re-arrangement I was
surprised to find only three "squares" of entries. Most re-arrangements
were much more complicated. These three squares correspond to the three
cases I list. Even so, it does not matter two cents how a hypothesis is
produced. Any hypothesis necessarily goes beyond any data for which it
accounts. What matters is whether the hypothesis works. This one does.
>
>because you are ignoring case (2) WRT Matthew and Mark. Case (2) above
>currently works only for Luke, and doesn't work for Matthew or Mark.
>
Yes. It is supposed to work only for Luke. In fact, it works very well
for Luke.
>
>Unless you extend your theory to include Matthew and Mark here, then it
>is incomplete, i.e. "full of holes".
>
If it works, which it does, then it is complete. There is no need to
extend a hypothesis that works. To do so, in fact, would contravene
Occam's Razor.

pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

>
>I have problems with both Case (2) and Case (3), because they are not
>symmetrical with respect to the three synoptists.
>
Brian Wilson responded --
>
>The observed correlations are not symmetrical with respect to the three
>synoptists. So there is no basis for your expectation.
>
Dave Inglis now replies --
>
>Here's the proof that you have constructed your theory just to meet the
>current results, because you are ignoring case (2) WRT Matthew and
>Mark. Case (2) above currently works only for Luke, and doesn't work
>for Matthew or Mark.
>

Unless you extend your theory to include Matthew and Mark here,
>then it is incomplete, i.e. "full of holes".
>
>Dave Inglis
>david@...
>3538 O'Connor Drive
>
>
>
>Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
>List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...

--
Brian E. Wilson

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• Brian Wilson wrote -- ... Dave Inglis responded -- ... Brian Wilson answered -- ... Dave Inglis now replies -- ... Dave, As a matter of fact you are wrong.
Message 14 of 24 , Jan 7, 2002
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Brian Wilson wrote --
>
>Case (1) is accounted for by supposing that two different styles have
>been imposed by two synoptists redacting differently, and case (2) by
>supposing that the wording present in all three synoptists would be
>in words significantly different from Luke's style since they would be
>words common to the styles of all three and therefore lack many of
>the distinguishing words in Luke, whereas the words in Luke only would
>have retained the words of Luke's style, this having the same effect
>as one category having been redacted by one synoptist, and the other
>having been redacted by another, and case (3) by supposing that the
>difference between the words of each category would have been the
>difference between the style of Matthew and the style of Mark, and
>that this would have had the same effect as one synoptist having
>redacted one category of material, and another synoptist having
>redacted the other.
>
Dave Inglis responded --
>
>I have problems with both Case (2) and Case (3), because they are not
>symmetrical with respect to the three synoptists.
>
>
>The observed correlations are not symmetrical with respect to the three
>synoptists. So there is no basis for your expectation.
>
Dave Inglis now replies --
>
>Here's the proof that you have constructed your theory just to meet
>the current results
>
Dave,
As a matter of fact you are wrong. That is not what happened. I
know, because I was the one who formulated the hypothesis. It was
inspired by using my computer to move around columns and rows of entries
in my own table of correlations results. In one re-arrangement I was
surprised to find only three "squares" of entries. Most re-arrangements
were much more complicated. Also, I noticed, the three squares
corresponded to the first three groups in the Average Linkage Cluster
TREE Procedure results. The three Cases were inspired by these two
observations apparently pointing to a tri-partite division. Even so, it
does not matter two cents how a hypothesis is produced. Any hypothesis
necessarily goes beyond any data for which it accounts. The
psychological route by which it is reached is irrelevant. What matters
is whether the hypothesis works. This one does.
>
>because you are ignoring case (2) WRT Matthew and Mark. Case (2) above
>currently works only for Luke, and doesn't work for Matthew or Mark.
>
Yes. Case 2 is supposed to work only for Luke. In fact, it works very
well for Luke. That's fine.
>
>Unless you extend your theory to include Matthew and Mark here, then it
>is incomplete, i.e. "full of holes".
>
If it works, which it does, then it is complete. There is no need to
extend a hypothesis that works. To do so, in fact, would contravene
Occam's Razor.

I think you should take note of the asymmetry of the Average Linkage
Cluster TREE Procedure results, and also of the asymmetry of the
Principle Component Analysis results, as well as the obvious asymmetry
in the table of significant positive and significant negative results.
The prevalent asymmetry of the observed results corresponds, in my view,
to the idea that Lk redacted more heavily than Matthew, and Matthew more
heavily than Mark, which accounts for the three Cases described above.

Best wishes,
BRIAN WILSON

>HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
> "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
> speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
_

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