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[Synoptic-L] Some numerical results

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  • dgentil@sears.com
    I tried a little data analysis with statistics drawn from the synoptic concordance. I started with only the words beginning with delta . I ve done a little
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 20, 2001
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      I tried a little data analysis with statistics drawn from the synoptic
      concordance.
      I started with only the words beginning with "delta". I've done a little
      bit of comparison
      with the "alpha-gamma" data, but the results so far reflect only "delta".

      The synoptic concordance counts words in various categories. The notation
      used is as follow:
      222 - means the word is in all 3 gospels.
      221 - would mean Luke had the tradition, but not the word.
      220 - means Luke does not have a parallel.
      The first position refers to Matthew, the second Mark, the third Luke.
      "2" means the word is there. "1" means there is a parallel, but no word.
      "0" means no parallel.

      The calculation I did was as follows:
      For each word beginning with D, I calculated what percentage of words
      beginning with D it represented
      in its section. Example: if "David" appeared 1 time in the triple
      agreement, and there were 50 words beginning with D in the triple
      agreement, the "David" would get a .02 score. (1/50).

      Next I subtracted the frequency of the word in the synoptics as a whole, so
      I would have a number that represented the change in frequency.

      Finally, I did some correlations based on all "D" words, to see which sorts
      of traditions might be correlated with each other, implying the same hand
      may have written them.

      I also tried some multiple regression, and principle component techniques,
      to examine the data, but I'll just present the correlation results.

      The results are promising. A lot of things that you would expect to
      correlate do, and a lot of anti-correlations are predictable too. Many
      things show no correlation, or are indeterminate. More data might help with
      these.

      The following correlations were significant, at the 95% confidence
      interval:
      220 with 210
      210 with 211
      200 with 201
      202 with 102
      121 with 221
      020 with 120
      112 with 012

      There was too little data for 212, 021, and 022, to work with, so they are
      not reported.

      Of the anti-correlations, the only really interesting one was:
      220 vs. 201. Anti-correlated at the 99.99% confidence level.

      One thing to note is disagreement in the double tradition. (201, and 102)
      When there is disagreement, Luke agrees with the double tradition. (102
      correlates with 202)
      Matthew agrees with special Matthew, (200 with 201).
      This is in line with the 2SH, but a problem for a simple GH, or FH.

      210 with 211 just means that where Matthew has changed Mark, it does not
      matter if Luke is there.
      012 with 112 just means that where Luke has changed Mark, it does not
      matter if Matthew is there.

      121 with 221 means that in the triple tradition Mark/Mt agreement, and Mark
      alone, correlate.
      This one is a problem for the GH.

      020 with 120 means Mark alone or only against Matthew correlate. These do
      NOT look
      much like the general Mt/Mark agreements. The stats are a little shaky, but
      they seem to be the hand of a revisor of the original.

      The anti-correlations, 220 vs. 201, is a problem for the GH, since
      Matthew the editor of Q, and copier of Mark, are quite dissimilar.

      Finally, 220 with 210 implies that in Luke's omissions, Matthew seems more
      original than Mark. This is a problem for all the major hypotheses, except
      the GH.
      To me it suggests 3 versions of Mark,
      the first used by Luke (222, 122 (Luke preserves) against , 221 and 121
      (Luke changes))
      a later one by Matthew (220, 210), and the last one is cannon Mark (020,
      120).
      This correlation is only significant at the 95% confidence level, but not
      higher,
      so it would be interesting to see the result of more data.

      Looking for support for a proto-Matthew/Q+ is hampered by the fact that
      there are few MAs.
      However, an anti-correlation between 121 and 202 is suggestive.
      It suggests that the hand that wrote the double tradition, also produced
      the MAs.

      In general the correlations suggest the solution is not simple.

      Dave Gentile
      Riversie, Illinois


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    • Brian E. Wilson
      Dave Gentile wrote -- ... Dave, You have given us the result of comparing 121 / 221 . What is the result of comparing 121 / 122, and also 121 / 222, please?
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 25, 2001
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        Dave Gentile wrote --
        >
        >The following correlations were significant, at the 95% confidence
        >interval:
        >220 with 210
        >210 with 211
        >200 with 201
        >202 with 102
        >121 with 221
        >020 with 120
        >112 with 012
        >
        Dave,
        You have given us the result of comparing 121 / 221 .

        What is the result of comparing 121 / 122, and also 121 / 222, please?

        Best wishes,
        BRIAN WILSON

        >HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

        Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
        > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
        > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
        _

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      • David Gentile
        ... Brian, Based on only the delta data, 121 and 222 show a non-significant negative correlation. 121 and 122 show zero correlation. However, based on the
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 25, 2001
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          Brian Wilson asks:

          > Dave,
          > You have given us the result of comparing 121 / 221 .
          >
          > What is the result of comparing 121 / 122, and also 121 / 222, please?

          Brian,

          Based on only the "delta" data,
          121 and 222 show a non-significant negative correlation.
          121 and 122 show zero correlation.
          However, based on the alpha-delta data, it looks like there might
          be a 121- 122 correlation.
          These are really non-results. A strong anti-correlation would indicate they
          were different,
          this just says we really can't tell for sure.

          The only other significant result from the "delta" data about 121, was that
          121 and 202 are negatively correlated at the 99% confidence level.
          (and if anything this seems strengthened with the additional data)
          To me this seems to suggest one hand adding the double tradition, and
          causing the disagreement with Mark. This would be consistent with a
          proto-Matthew.

          Dave Gentile
          Riverside, Illinois
          M.S. Physics
          PhD Management Science candidate

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "When you have eliminated the impossible,
          whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
          - Sherlock Holmes,
          in The Sign of Four, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

          "Why sometimes I've believed as many as
          six impossible things before breakfast."
          - The Red Queen,
          in Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll



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        • John Rutledge
          [David Gentile] ... David, Perhaps you could explain the significance of these calculations. Would the correlation calculations represent correlations among
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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            [David Gentile]
            > The following correlations were significant, at the
            > 95% confidence
            > interval:
            > 220 with 210
            > 210 with 211
            > 200 with 201
            > 202 with 102
            > 121 with 221
            > 020 with 120
            > 112 with 012

            David,

            Perhaps you could explain the significance of these
            calculations.

            Would the correlation calculations represent
            "correlations" among sets of words? In the calculation
            given above the symbol 220 would represent a set of
            words, for example. So the "correlation" would
            represent the percentage of shared words among
            differing sets?

            If this is incorrect please clarify.


            =====
            John Rutledge

            __________________________________________________
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          • John Rutledge
            ... Oops. I didn t get a chance to read your reply found in message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synoptic-l/message/7047 Let me investigate this response
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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              --- John Rutledge <logically_speaking_2001@...>
              wrote:
              > [David Gentile]
              > > The following correlations were significant, at
              > the
              > > 95% confidence
              > > interval:
              > > 220 with 210
              > > 210 with 211
              > > 200 with 201
              > > 202 with 102
              > > 121 with 221
              > > 020 with 120
              > > 112 with 012
              >
              > David,
              >
              > Perhaps you could explain the significance of these
              > calculations.
              >
              > Would the correlation calculations represent
              > "correlations" among sets of words? In the
              > calculation
              > given above the symbol 220 would represent a set of
              > words, for example. So the "correlation" would
              > represent the percentage of shared words among
              > differing sets?
              >
              > If this is incorrect please clarify.

              Oops. I didn't get a chance to read your reply found
              in message
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synoptic-l/message/7047

              Let me investigate this response before making any
              more comments.


              =====
              John Rutledge

              __________________________________________________
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            • John Rutledge
              David, Perhaps you could clarify some points. [David Gentile] ... What exactly do you mean by tradition here? ... What exactly do you mean by parallel ? ...
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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                David,

                Perhaps you could clarify some points.

                [David Gentile]
                > The synoptic concordance counts words in various
                > categories. The notation
                > used is as follow:
                > 222 - means the word is in all 3 gospels.
                > 221 - would mean Luke had the tradition, but not the
                > word.

                What exactly do you mean by "tradition" here?

                > 220 - means Luke does not have a parallel.

                What exactly do you mean by "parallel"?

                > The first position refers to Matthew, the second
                > Mark, the third Luke.
                > "2" means the word is there. "1" means there is a
                > parallel, but no word.
                > "0" means no parallel.


                =====
                John Rutledge

                __________________________________________________
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              • dgentil@sears.com
                Hello, I don t have the book here. As Brian Wilson pointed out, it is: P. Hoffmann, T. Hieke, U. Bauer Synoptic Concordance Vol I, A-D, (Berlin, 1999) The
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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                  Hello,
                  I don't have the book here. As Brian Wilson pointed out, it is:

                  P. Hoffmann, T. Hieke, U. Bauer "Synoptic
                  Concordance" Vol I, A-D, (Berlin, 1999)

                  The definitions are theirs, not mine.

                  I'm sure they do a better job of explaining their meaning, but I'll try.
                  If we are looking at the statistics for the word "David",
                  210 would be the count of occurrences of the word "David" in Matthew,
                  where Mark had a parallel text, but did not have the word "David",
                  and Luke had no parallel text at all.

                  222 would count the number of times the word "David" appears
                  in all three gospels in parallel.

                  Did I do any better?

                  Dave Gentile
                  Riverside, Illinois
                  M.S. Physics
                  PhD Management Science candidate




                  David,

                  Perhaps you could clarify some points.

                  [David Gentile]
                  > The synoptic concordance counts words in various
                  > categories. The notation
                  > used is as follow:
                  > 222 - means the word is in all 3 gospels.
                  > 221 - would mean Luke had the tradition, but not the
                  > word.

                  What exactly do you mean by "tradition" here?

                  > 220 - means Luke does not have a parallel.

                  What exactly do you mean by "parallel"?

                  > The first position refers to Matthew, the second
                  > Mark, the third Luke.
                  > "2" means the word is there. "1" means there is a
                  > parallel, but no word.
                  > "0" means no parallel.


                  =====
                  John Rutledge





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                • Mark Goodacre
                  ... I think the use of the word count here is potentially misleading. Let me have a go at explaining this. Hoffmann, Hieke and Bauer use the statistical
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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                    On 29 Nov 2001 at 13:44, dgentil@... wrote:

                    > P. Hoffmann, T. Hieke, U. Bauer "Synoptic
                    > Concordance" Vol I, A-D, (Berlin, 1999)
                    >
                    > The definitions are theirs, not mine.
                    >
                    > I'm sure they do a better job of explaining their meaning, but I'll
                    > try. If we are looking at the statistics for the word "David", 210
                    > would be the count of occurrences of the word "David" in Matthew,
                    > where Mark had a parallel text, but did not have the word "David", and
                    > Luke had no parallel text at all.
                    >
                    > 222 would count the number of times the word "David" appears
                    > in all three gospels in parallel.

                    I think the use of the word "count" here is potentially misleading.
                    Let me have a go at explaining this. Hoffmann, Hieke and Bauer use
                    the "statistical code" 222, 221 etc. in order to convey additional
                    information about every word listed in their concordance. This is a
                    "Synoptic Concordance" so aims not only to list occurrences of words
                    like a normal concordance, but also to depict the occurrence of every
                    single word *synoptically*. Thus, to use the example above, when
                    listing "David" they depict all occurrences synoptically, showing for
                    each occurrence whether it occurs in triple tradition, double
                    tradition, Sondergut etc. And in addition to that -- and here we
                    come to the matter currently under discussion -- they show whether
                    the word itself occurs in the direct parallel concerned. Wherever
                    the word David occurs in Matthew in triple tradition but not in its
                    parallels in Mark and Luke, the code "211" is given. Wherever the
                    word David occurs in Matthew, Mark and Luke in triple tradition, the
                    code "222" is given. Wherever the word occurs in Matthew and in Luke
                    in double tradition, the code 202 is given; wherever it occurs in
                    Matthew but not Luke in double tradition, the code 201 is given. And
                    so on. The total number of 222 of "David" is then totted up, viz.
                    the total number of times David occurs in all three Synoptics in
                    direct parallel. And the total number of 211s, and so on and so on.
                    If you can't get access to the Synoptic Concordance (which is quite
                    expensive), have a look at a sample page on the web which may help to
                    clarify the procedure:

                    http://www.uni-bamberg.de/ktheo/nt/forschung/synconbe.htm

                    It's actually very straightforward, but it's tough to describe it
                    without seeing it graphically, so looking at the above may clarify
                    it.

                    Mark-----------------------------
                    Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                    Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                    University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                    Birmingham B15 2TT
                    United Kingdom

                    http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                    Homepage
                    http://NTGateway.com
                    The New Testament Gateway


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                  • Mark Goodacre
                    Dear Dave Thanks for your work on this, only some of which I understand. I d be grateful if you could clarify the experiment for us some more, ideally on the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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                      Dear Dave

                      Thanks for your work on this, only some of which I understand. I'd
                      be grateful if you could clarify the experiment for us some more,
                      ideally on the "for dummies" level since my guess would be that I'm
                      not the only one who can't follow everything you're saying. In
                      particular, let me ask for you to explain carefully the procedure
                      laid out in the following:

                      > The calculation I did was as follows:
                      > For each word beginning with D, I calculated what percentage of words
                      > beginning with D it represented in its section. Example: if "David"
                      > appeared 1 time in the triple agreement, and there were 50 words
                      > beginning with D in the triple agreement, the "David" would get a .02
                      > score. (1/50).

                      When you say "its section", to what does this refer? Is it the piece
                      of context given for each word in the Synoptic Concordance? I'd be
                      grateful if you could clarify for me what you mean here by "in the
                      triple agreement". Is that the same thing as "its section"?

                      > Next I subtracted the frequency of the word in the synoptics as a
                      > whole, so I would have a number that represented the change in
                      > frequency.

                      I'd be grateful if you could unpack this a bit for me -- could you
                      explain the procedure and its rationale?

                      > Finally, I did some correlations based on all "D" words, to see which
                      > sorts of traditions might be correlated with each other, implying the
                      > same hand may have written them.

                      This is the part that at the moment puzzles me most. Assuming the
                      results are accurate and assuming that the whole alphabet will
                      produce results similar to those based on just delta, in what way do
                      the "correlations" you have listed "imply[ ] the same hand may have
                      written them"? We don't doubt, do we, that Matthew's triple
                      tradition passages (to take one example) come from "the same hand" as
                      Matthew's double tradition and and Matthew's Sondergut? What you are
                      presumably hinting at is whether these blocks of material show
                      different stylistic tendencies based on the possibilities of
                      different source material used in these separate blocks. Is that
                      right? Let me attempt to tease this point out by asking about
                      another statement:

                      > In general terms we're looking for word preference or choice. If two
                      > different types of material (say 121 and 120), tend to prefer the same
                      > words, then there is a good chance they had the same author. We are
                      > looking for correlations in "style" between "121" and "120". The
                      > frequency of each Greek word, is one data point in helping us
                      > determine if the styles were similar or different.

                      Again I'd like to see you unpack this question about inferring "the
                      same author" from your results. Can you explain why correlations
                      between results for 121 and 120 material are significant? I also
                      start to worry here that I really haven't grasped the basic project
                      at all. Aren't 121, 120 etc. just types of words in the Synoptic
                      Concordance, i.e. 121 are words occurring in Mark's triple tradition
                      which do not occurr in the Matthean // Lukan parallel? If so, what
                      does 121 "material" mean? It's at this stage that I suspect that I
                      am showing some real ignorance, and if so I'll put it down to it
                      being late at night after a long day!

                      Thanks in anticipation
                      Mark


                      -----------------------------
                      Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                      Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                      University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                      Birmingham B15 2TT
                      United Kingdom

                      http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                      Homepage
                      http://NTGateway.com
                      The New Testament Gateway


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                    • David Gentile
                      Dear Mark, Thanks for helping to clarify the what the synoptic concordance symbols mean. I ll try to explain the procedure more. My responses are in line. ...
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 29, 2001
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                        Dear Mark,

                        Thanks for helping to clarify the what the synoptic concordance symbols
                        mean. I'll try to explain the procedure more. My responses are in line.


                        > Dear Dave
                        >
                        > Thanks for your work on this, only some of which I understand. I'd
                        > be grateful if you could clarify the experiment for us some more,
                        > ideally on the "for dummies" level since my guess would be that I'm
                        > not the only one who can't follow everything you're saying. In
                        > particular, let me ask for you to explain carefully the procedure
                        > laid out in the following:
                        >
                        > > The calculation I did was as follows:
                        > > For each word beginning with D, I calculated what percentage of words
                        > > beginning with D it represented in its section. Example: if "David"
                        > > appeared 1 time in the triple agreement, and there were 50 words
                        > > beginning with D in the triple agreement, the "David" would get a .02
                        > > score. (1/50).
                        >
                        > When you say "its section", to what does this refer? Is it the piece
                        > of context given for each word in the Synoptic Concordance? I'd be
                        > grateful if you could clarify for me what you mean here by "in the
                        > triple agreement". Is that the same thing as "its section"?
                        >

                        By "its section" here, I meant "222" "221" etc.
                        By "triple agreement" I meant "222" specificly.
                        What I'm getting is how frequently the word is used in that category.
                        In the example "David" occurs once per 50 words, in the "222" category.
                        It's frequency is once every 50 words. Or a score of .02



                        > > Next I subtracted the frequency of the word in the synoptics as a
                        > > whole, so I would have a number that represented the change in
                        > > frequency.
                        >
                        > I'd be grateful if you could unpack this a bit for me -- could you
                        > explain the procedure and its rationale?

                        Maybe an example. "the" is a lot more common than "bottom".
                        If I tried to correlate 222 with 221 at this point there would be a strong
                        correlation.
                        All it would be saying is that both 222 and 221 seem to use "the" a lot more
                        than "bottom".
                        What we are really interested in knowing is if the "the" and "bottom" occur
                        more or less that expected.
                        Let's say "the" occurs once every 50 words in "222". The score is .02
                        Let's say "bottom" occurs once every 200 words in "222" The score is .005
                        Let's say "the" occurs once every 100 words in "221". The score is .01
                        Let's say "bottom" occurs once every 300 words in "221" The score is .0033
                        Let's say "the" occurs once every 40 words in all categories. The score is
                        .025
                        Let's say "bottom" occurs once every 250 words in all categories The score
                        is .004

                        So now we can compute the frequencies by category, relative to what we would
                        expect.
                        For "the" in category "222" we get .02 - .025 = -.005.
                        "the" occurs less frequently in "222" that it does in all categories.
                        For "bottom" in category "222" we get .005 - .004 = .001
                        "bottom" occurs more frequntly in "222" than in the synoptics as a whole.

                        For "the" in category "221" we get .01 - .025 = -.015.
                        "the" occurs less frequently in "221" that it does in all categories.
                        For "bottom" in category "221" we get .0033 - .004 = -.0007
                        "bottom" occurs less frequntly in "222" than in the synoptics as a whole.

                        Now, if we do this for every word, and we start to see that words that are
                        more frequent than expected in "222" are also more frequent than expected in
                        "221" then we are seeing that "222" and "221" have a similiar prefference
                        for words.



                        >
                        > > Finally, I did some correlations based on all "D" words, to see which
                        > > sorts of traditions might be correlated with each other, implying the
                        > > same hand may have written them.
                        >
                        > This is the part that at the moment puzzles me most. Assuming the
                        > results are accurate and assuming that the whole alphabet will
                        > produce results similar to those based on just delta, in what way do
                        > the "correlations" you have listed "imply[ ] the same hand may have
                        > written them"? We don't doubt, do we, that Matthew's triple
                        > tradition passages (to take one example) come from "the same hand" as
                        > Matthew's double tradition and and Matthew's Sondergut? What you are
                        > presumably hinting at is whether these blocks of material show
                        > different stylistic tendencies based on the possibilities of
                        > different source material used in these separate blocks. Is that
                        > right? Let me attempt to tease this point out by asking about
                        > another statement:

                        Now I'm using alpha-delta, so there is more data. I'll add more, with time.
                        I think you have my intent correct. If "200" has a similiar style as
                        "211" we can view Matthew as one authors style. If they look differant that
                        we suspect
                        Matthew was coping another source in once place, and creating on his own in
                        another.

                        >
                        > > In general terms we're looking for word preference or choice. If two
                        > > different types of material (say 121 and 120), tend to prefer the same
                        > > words, then there is a good chance they had the same author. We are
                        > > looking for correlations in "style" between "121" and "120". The
                        > > frequency of each Greek word, is one data point in helping us
                        > > determine if the styles were similar or different.
                        >
                        > Again I'd like to see you unpack this question about inferring "the
                        > same author" from your results. Can you explain why correlations
                        > between results for 121 and 120 material are significant? I also
                        > start to worry here that I really haven't grasped the basic project
                        > at all. Aren't 121, 120 etc. just types of words in the Synoptic
                        > Concordance, i.e. 121 are words occurring in Mark's triple tradition
                        > which do not occurr in the Matthean // Lukan parallel? If so, what
                        > does 121 "material" mean? It's at this stage that I suspect that I
                        > am showing some real ignorance, and if so I'll put it down to it
                        > being late at night after a long day!
                        >
                        >
                        121 and 120 we would expect to be correlated on almost any hypothesis.
                        For example, we might notice the word "immediately" appears in both
                        121 and 120 a lot more that in say "002" or in all categories in general.
                        121 and 120 seem to have a similar choice of words. They are likely both
                        written by the same author, who liked the word "immediately".
                        The fact that 121 and 120 correlate does not say anything surprising.
                        In just confirms that the procedure is working.
                        (If 121 and 120 did not look related, we might question the test)
                        But when 122 and 112 look similar, we are saying something
                        more significant. We are saying that Mark/Luke agreement has a style that
                        matches Luke alone to some extent. This could be explained by
                        Luke and Mark copying a source and Mark altering it sometimes. The fact that
                        122
                        looks like 112 and that 122 looks like 121, strongly suggests
                        that Mark and Luke independently copy and alters a source,
                        so that both look somewhat like the source.

                        Any better?

                        Dave Gentile
                        Riverside Illinois
                        M.S. Physics
                        PhD Management Science candidate




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                      • Brian E. Wilson
                        Dave Gentile wrote -- ... Dave, I am still concerned about the nature of the data. To what extent does the assumption of the 2DH by the compilers of the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 30, 2001
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                          Dave Gentile wrote --
                          >
                          >In general terms we're looking for word preference or choice.
                          >If two different types of material (say 121 and 120), tend to prefer
                          >the same words, then there is a good chance they had the same author.
                          >
                          Dave,
                          I am still concerned about the nature of the data.

                          To what extent does the assumption of the 2DH by the compilers of the
                          Concordance affect the results of the analysis of word preference or
                          choice? Also, can we definitely tell what material is in the triple
                          tradition?

                          The Feeding of the Five Thousand, Mt 14.13-21, Mk 6.30-44, Lk 9.10-17,
                          is found in all three synoptic gospels. It would seem to be triple
                          tradition. On this basis, each word in the second verse of the story in
                          Mark (Mk 6.31) is 121, since none of its wording is found in the
                          parallel pericope in Mt or Lk. In the Concordance, however, each of
                          these words is categorized 020. The assumption by the compilers of the
                          Concordance is that the verse is not triple tradition even though it is
                          within a triple tradition pericope. On the other hand, in the same story
                          in Mk 6.37(b)-38(a), the following material is found in Mk but in
                          neither Mt nor Lk -- "And they said to him, 'Shall we go and buy two
                          hundred denarii worth of bread, and give it to them to eat?' And he said
                          to them, 'How many loves have you? Go and see.'" In this material,
                          "denarii" -- DHNARIWN, and all the other words, are categorized as
                          121. This seems inconsistent. How can we know that Mk 6.31 is not triple
                          tradition, and yet that Mk 6.37(b)-38(a) is triple tradition, if both
                          pieces of material are in parallel pericopes in all three synoptic
                          gospels?

                          It seems to me that completely dividing every word of the synoptic
                          gospels into triple tradition, double tradition, Mt//Mk not in Lk,
                          Mk//Lk not in Mt, and Sondergut material, must be carried out for the
                          Concordance to obtain its categories 222, 221, 220, and so on. Yet this
                          division is surely subjective. The difficulty is compounded by the
                          problem that, if the 2DH is assumed, it is hard, (if not impossible, as
                          Cyril Rodd has argued recently) to determine the extent of the wording
                          of Q. Determining what is Mk-Q overlap material therefore seems to be
                          subjective also.

                          It would appear that the categories in the Concordance are moveable
                          feasts and may reflect the decisions of the compilers, rather than
                          indicate the documentary relationship between the synoptic gospels. I
                          think a similar Concordance based on the Farrer Hypothesis, would differ
                          significantly from Hoffmann, Hicke, Bauer. I would suggest that, for
                          this reason, the nature of the data in the HHB Concordance should be
                          ferreted out, and that the conclusions of such an investigation should
                          be used to interpret any analysis of the HHB data.

                          Best wishes,
                          BRIAN WILSON

                          >HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

                          Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                          > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                          > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                          _

                          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                        • Mark Goodacre
                          Many thanks for the clarifications and explanations, Dave -- I appreciate your taking the time to help me (and I hope others) understand this. Yes, I m
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 30, 2001
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                            Many thanks for the clarifications and explanations, Dave -- I
                            appreciate your taking the time to help me (and I hope others)
                            understand this. Yes, I'm getting hold of this now and want to ask
                            some related questions, again at the risk of exposing my ignorance in
                            public:

                            > By "its section" here, I meant "222" "221" etc.
                            > By "triple agreement" I meant "222" specificly.
                            > What I'm getting is how frequently the word is used in that category.
                            > In the example "David" occurs once per 50 words, in the "222"
                            > category. It's frequency is once every 50 words. Or a score of .02

                            OK, I think I've got this. When you say "222", you are talking about
                            every single word that occurs in that general category, viz. every
                            single directly paralleled word in triple tradition. So occurrences
                            of "David" among all those words in Matthew, Mark and Luke amounts to
                            once every 50 words.

                            [example snipped]

                            > For "the" in category "221" we get .01 - .025 = -.015.
                            > "the" occurs less frequently in "221" that it does in all categories.
                            > For "bottom" in category "221" we get .0033 - .004 = -.0007 "bottom"
                            > occurs less frequntly in "222" than in the synoptics as a whole.

                            Thanks -- I've got this.

                            > Now, if we do this for every word, and we start to see that words that
                            > are more frequent than expected in "222" are also more frequent than
                            > expected in "221" then we are seeing that "222" and "221" have a
                            > similiar prefference for words.

                            If I am understanding the experiment correctly, I wonder here (and
                            elsewhere) about the problem of circularity. Surely by definition we
                            will expect 222 and 221 to have a similar preference for words? The
                            Matthew // Mark direct parallel common to both of these categories
                            will ensure that the results are at least pretty similar, won't they?
                            That's not necessarily because of common "authorship" or traditions;
                            it's just that the way the experiment is set up makes it inevitable
                            that 222 and 221 will come out similarly, as also 122 and 222. Or is
                            that not right?

                            > Now I'm using alpha-delta, so there is more data. I'll add more, with
                            > time. I think you have my intent correct. If "200" has a similiar
                            > style as "211" we can view Matthew as one authors style. If they look
                            > differant that we suspect Matthew was coping another source in once
                            > place, and creating on his own in another.

                            I don't know; would that be the only legitimate conclusion? If 200
                            and 211
                            look different, surely it might be that Matthew's attitude to to
                            triple tradition material differed from his atttitude to Sondergut.
                            And there are the questions Stephen raised about genre and the like.
                            Q theorists have long known, for example, that Matthew and Luke are
                            much closer together in Q material than they are in Markan material,
                            something that does not cause them to question their hypothesis.
                            Rather it suggests to them that Matthew's and Luke's mutual attitudes
                            to Q overall differed from their attitudes to Mark overall, perhaps
                            influenced further by the fact that the double tradition is
                            proportionally more sayings-rich than is the triple tradition.

                            > 121 and 120 we would expect to be correlated on almost any
                            > hypothesis.
                            > For example, we might notice the word "immediately" appears in both
                            > 121 and 120 a lot more that in say "002" or in all categories in
                            > general. 121 and 120 seem to have a similar choice of words. They are
                            > likely both written by the same author, who liked the word
                            > "immediately".

                            Does it necessarily imply that? Would one not simply expect a rough
                            correlation between 121 and 120 by definition, because of the common
                            12- element? Isn't this much the same as with 222 and 221 (etc.)
                            above? Likewise, we wouldn't expect 121 and 120 to show a rough
                            correlation with 002, again by definition, because the latter is
                            constituted by those words without direct or indirect parallel in
                            Mark and Matthew, the very thing that is key in 121 and 120.

                            > The fact that 121 and 120 correlate does not say
                            > anything surprising. In just confirms that the procedure is working.
                            > (If 121 and 120 did not look related, we might question the test) But
                            > when 122 and 112 look similar, we are saying something more
                            > significant. We are saying that Mark/Luke agreement has a style that
                            > matches Luke alone to some extent. This could be explained by Luke and
                            > Mark copying a source and Mark altering it sometimes. The fact that
                            > 122 looks like 112 and that 122 looks like 121, strongly suggests that
                            > Mark and Luke independently copy and alters a source, so that both
                            > look somewhat like the source.

                            Again, I'm not yet convinced of this. By definition, surely we would
                            expect 122 to show a rough correlation with 112, and 122 with 121,
                            and so on, because there is commonality in respective definitions of
                            these categories. But even if this were not the case, I don't think
                            your conclusion would follow from the data. It could be that when
                            Luke reads Mark, he tends to take over the most congenial ("Luke-
                            pleasing") words, the same words he tends to add himself where Mark
                            is not directly parallel, and in this way 112's correlation with 122
                            would be exactly what Luke's use of Mark would lead us to expect.

                            Thanks again
                            Mark-----------------------------
                            Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                            Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                            University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 4381
                            Birmingham B15 2TT
                            United Kingdom

                            http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                            Homepage
                            http://NTGateway.com
                            The New Testament Gateway


                            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                          • Maluflen@aol.com
                            In a message dated 11/30/2001 7:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.S.Goodacre@bham.ac.uk writes:
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 30, 2001
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                              In a message dated 11/30/2001 7:54:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                              M.S.Goodacre@... writes:

                              << Rather it suggests to them that Matthew's and Luke's mutual attitudes
                              to Q overall differed from their attitudes to Mark overall, perhaps
                              influenced further by the fact that the double tradition is
                              proportionally more sayings-rich than is the triple tradition.>>


                              To state this relationship in GH terms, Luke is far more ready to copy when
                              he is citing words of Jesus given by Matt than when he is simply re-narrating
                              a story that Matthew has told -- this, in spite of the fact that he takes
                              care in every case to do something original, in terms of placement,
                              structure, or application, even with closely copied segments of Jesus
                              sayings. This policy of Luke's is strikingly confirmed by a comparison with
                              Luke's use of OT material in a lengthy passage such as the speech of Stephen
                              in Acts: close reproduction of his LXX source when he is quoting the words of
                              protagonists in the story, coupled with far greater freedom in rewriting the
                              narrative framework within which these words occur.

                              Leonard Maluf

                              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                            • dgentil@sears.com
                              Hello again Brian, I agree that the categorizing of the data is certainly something to think about. But it seems their choices should have well defined
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 30, 2001
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                                Hello again Brian,

                                I agree that the categorizing of the data is certainly something to think
                                about. But it seems their choices should
                                have well defined effects, if they do have effects. Perhaps we could try to
                                apply this to specific claims the correlations make?

                                For example, it claims 202 looks like 200. Do you see a way that their
                                categories might cause this
                                artificially? How about 112 with 122?

                                Thanks,

                                Dave Gentile
                                Riverside, Illinois
                                M.S. Physics
                                PhD Management Science candidate






                                "Brian E. Wilson" <brian@...>@... on 11/30/2001
                                05:37:14 AM

                                Sent by: owner-synoptic-l@...


                                To: Synoptic-L@...
                                cc:

                                Subject: [Synoptic-L] the nature of the data


                                Dave Gentile wrote --
                                >
                                >In general terms we're looking for word preference or choice.
                                >If two different types of material (say 121 and 120), tend to prefer
                                >the same words, then there is a good chance they had the same author.
                                >
                                Dave,
                                I am still concerned about the nature of the data.

                                To what extent does the assumption of the 2DH by the compilers of the
                                Concordance affect the results of the analysis of word preference or
                                choice? Also, can we definitely tell what material is in the triple
                                tradition?

                                The Feeding of the Five Thousand, Mt 14.13-21, Mk 6.30-44, Lk 9.10-17,
                                is found in all three synoptic gospels. It would seem to be triple
                                tradition. On this basis, each word in the second verse of the story in
                                Mark (Mk 6.31) is 121, since none of its wording is found in the
                                parallel pericope in Mt or Lk. In the Concordance, however, each of
                                these words is categorized 020. The assumption by the compilers of the
                                Concordance is that the verse is not triple tradition even though it is
                                within a triple tradition pericope. On the other hand, in the same story
                                in Mk 6.37(b)-38(a), the following material is found in Mk but in
                                neither Mt nor Lk -- "And they said to him, 'Shall we go and buy two
                                hundred denarii worth of bread, and give it to them to eat?' And he said
                                to them, 'How many loves have you? Go and see.'" In this material,
                                "denarii" -- DHNARIWN, and all the other words, are categorized as
                                121. This seems inconsistent. How can we know that Mk 6.31 is not triple
                                tradition, and yet that Mk 6.37(b)-38(a) is triple tradition, if both
                                pieces of material are in parallel pericopes in all three synoptic
                                gospels?

                                It seems to me that completely dividing every word of the synoptic
                                gospels into triple tradition, double tradition, Mt//Mk not in Lk,
                                Mk//Lk not in Mt, and Sondergut material, must be carried out for the
                                Concordance to obtain its categories 222, 221, 220, and so on. Yet this
                                division is surely subjective. The difficulty is compounded by the
                                problem that, if the 2DH is assumed, it is hard, (if not impossible, as
                                Cyril Rodd has argued recently) to determine the extent of the wording
                                of Q. Determining what is Mk-Q overlap material therefore seems to be
                                subjective also.

                                It would appear that the categories in the Concordance are moveable
                                feasts and may reflect the decisions of the compilers, rather than
                                indicate the documentary relationship between the synoptic gospels. I
                                think a similar Concordance based on the Farrer Hypothesis, would differ
                                significantly from Hoffmann, Hicke, Bauer. I would suggest that, for
                                this reason, the nature of the data in the HHB Concordance should be
                                ferreted out, and that the conclusions of such an investigation should
                                be used to interpret any analysis of the HHB data.

                                Best wishes,
                                BRIAN WILSON

                                >HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

                                Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                                > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                                > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                                _

                                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...




                                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                              • Brian E. Wilson
                                A further thought on this. In the triple tradition pericope the Transfiguration, Mt 17.1-8, Mk 9.2-8, Lk 9.28-36, the material in Lk 9.34(b) -- and they were
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                  A further thought on this. In the triple tradition pericope the
                                  Transfiguration, Mt 17.1-8, Mk 9.2-8, Lk 9.28-36, the material in Lk
                                  9.34(b) -- "and they were afraid as they entered the cloud" -- is found
                                  in neither Matthew nor Mark and yet each word is categorized 112 in the
                                  HHB Concordance as though the material has parallel passages in Mt and
                                  Mk. On the other hand, in the triple tradition pericope the Desolating
                                  Sacrilege, Mt 24.15-22, Mk 13.14-20, Lk 21.20-24, the words of Lk 21.22
                                  -- "for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written" --
                                  are similarly found in neither Mt nor Mk and are entered as 002, as
                                  though the material has no parallel passages in Mt or Mk. This seems to
                                  be inconsistent. Surely such inconsistencies are going to provide false
                                  pointers when categories such as 112 and 002 are used to try and
                                  determine the relationship between the synoptic gospels.

                                  The more I look at the HHB categorization the more I wonder whether
                                  analysing the stats reveals the decisions of the editors of the
                                  Concordance rather the relationship between the synoptic gospels.

                                  Best wishes,
                                  BRIAN WILSON

                                  >HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

                                  Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                                  > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                                  > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                                  _


                                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                                • Stephen C. Carlson
                                  ... Of course, it reveals the decisions of the editors about the relationship between the synoptic gospels. The main question, however, is whether and to what
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                    At 08:31 AM 12/1/2001 +0000, Brian E. Wilson wrote:
                                    >The more I look at the HHB categorization the more I wonder whether
                                    >analysing the stats reveals the decisions of the editors of the
                                    >Concordance rather the relationship between the synoptic gospels.

                                    Of course, it reveals the decisions of the editors about the
                                    relationship between the synoptic gospels. The main question,
                                    however, is whether and to what extent the editors' judgment
                                    is biased to a particular solution to the synoptic problem.

                                    Stephen Carlson
                                    --
                                    Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                                    Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                                    "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


                                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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                                  • David Gentile
                                    I m sure they had to make some judgment calls. This difference between 112 and 002 is, after all, just a matter of degree. A paragraph by only Luke is 002, and
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 1, 2001
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                                      I'm sure they had to make some judgment calls. This difference between 112
                                      and 002 is, after all, just a matter of degree. A paragraph by only Luke is
                                      002, and a word is 112. As you point out, a sentence may have been judged
                                      differently. Assuming they were really different to begin with, this could
                                      help to create a false positive. On the other hand, since almost everyone
                                      thinks 002 and 112 reflect the same hand, this example does not concern me
                                      that much.

                                      To address the issue in general, dirty data plagues every area of data
                                      analysis, its almost never, "clean". If needed, the first step is often,
                                      "data cleaning". If this project is taken to another phase, that may indeed
                                      be the first step.

                                      However, even if the categories are "rough" around the edges, that is the
                                      minority of examples, not the bulk of them. The roughness may nudge the
                                      results one way or the other, but, I don't think it can make large impacts.
                                      The exception, so far, might be the triple tradition - Mark/Q overlap cases
                                      you first mentioned. I think that does cloud the picture there, to some
                                      extent. Although I'm beginning to believe what the analysis is telling me
                                      there.

                                      Thanks for the comments,

                                      Dave Gentile
                                      Riverside, Illinois
                                      M.S. Physics
                                      PhD Management Science candidate


                                      > A further thought on this. In the triple tradition pericope the
                                      > Transfiguration, Mt 17.1-8, Mk 9.2-8, Lk 9.28-36, the material in Lk
                                      > 9.34(b) -- "and they were afraid as they entered the cloud" -- is found
                                      > in neither Matthew nor Mark and yet each word is categorized 112 in the
                                      > HHB Concordance as though the material has parallel passages in Mt and
                                      > Mk. On the other hand, in the triple tradition pericope the Desolating
                                      > Sacrilege, Mt 24.15-22, Mk 13.14-20, Lk 21.20-24, the words of Lk 21.22
                                      > -- "for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written" --
                                      > are similarly found in neither Mt nor Mk and are entered as 002, as
                                      > though the material has no parallel passages in Mt or Mk. This seems to
                                      > be inconsistent. Surely such inconsistencies are going to provide false
                                      > pointers when categories such as 112 and 002 are used to try and
                                      > determine the relationship between the synoptic gospels.
                                      >
                                      > The more I look at the HHB categorization the more I wonder whether
                                      > analysing the stats reveals the decisions of the editors of the
                                      > Concordance rather the relationship between the synoptic gospels.
                                      >
                                      > Best wishes,
                                      > BRIAN WILSON



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                                    • Ron Price
                                      Dave, What surprises me about this whole discussion is that you have been trying to make sense of a set of results which represents a small proportion of the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                        Dave,
                                        What surprises me about this whole discussion is that you have been
                                        trying to make sense of a set of results which represents a small
                                        proportion of the published data, and apparently (unless I've missed
                                        something) without any attempt to check for overall consistency.
                                        Before attempting to explain individual positive and negative
                                        correlations, I would like to see a consistency check along the
                                        following lines.
                                        Divide the words up into three or four groups by first letter, e.g.
                                        A-D, E-K, L-P, R-W, then carry out the analysis on each group, then
                                        compare the correlations. Any disagreements among the correlations might
                                        suggest there is something wrong with the method or with our implicit
                                        generalization from a subset of the data. If they were all in agreement,
                                        then we really would feel obliged to try hard to explain them.
                                        If the whole alphabet is too much to tackle, carry out this procedure
                                        with a subset of the alphabet divided into groups.

                                        Ron Price

                                        Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                                        e-mail: ron.price@...

                                        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm

                                        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                                      • David Gentile
                                        Hello Ron, Thanks for the suggestion. I was planning to do exactly that, once I got the next batch of data entered. I m not sure how soon that will be. Dave
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                          Hello Ron,

                                          Thanks for the suggestion. I was planning to do exactly that, once I got
                                          the next
                                          batch of data entered. I'm not sure how soon that will be.

                                          Dave Gentile
                                          Riverside, Illinois
                                          M.S. Physics
                                          PhD Management Science candidate


                                          > Dave,
                                          > What surprises me about this whole discussion is that you have been
                                          > trying to make sense of a set of results which represents a small
                                          > proportion of the published data, and apparently (unless I've missed
                                          > something) without any attempt to check for overall consistency.
                                          > Before attempting to explain individual positive and negative
                                          > correlations, I would like to see a consistency check along the
                                          > following lines.
                                          > Divide the words up into three or four groups by first letter, e.g.
                                          > A-D, E-K, L-P, R-W, then carry out the analysis on each group, then
                                          > compare the correlations. Any disagreements among the correlations might
                                          > suggest there is something wrong with the method or with our implicit
                                          > generalization from a subset of the data. If they were all in agreement,
                                          > then we really would feel obliged to try hard to explain them.
                                          > If the whole alphabet is too much to tackle, carry out this procedure
                                          > with a subset of the alphabet divided into groups.
                                          >
                                          > Ron Price
                                          >



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                                          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                                        • Stephen C. Carlson
                                          ... In this regard, it occurs to me that the 95% level of assessing significance is far too generous. 95% implies that one in twenty may be wrong, but in our
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                            At 10:43 AM 12/2/2001 +0000, Ron Price wrote:
                                            > What surprises me about this whole discussion is that you have been
                                            >trying to make sense of a set of results which represents a small
                                            >proportion of the published data, and apparently (unless I've missed
                                            >something) without any attempt to check for overall consistency.

                                            In this regard, it occurs to me that the 95% level of assessing
                                            significance is far too generous. 95% implies that one in twenty
                                            may be wrong, but in our data set we have 19 total sections (222
                                            through 002) for a total of 171 different pair-wise comparisons
                                            (19*18/2). If 1 in 20 is wrong (inherent in the 95% level), then
                                            about 9 of the "significant" correlations are really just to due
                                            to random chance.

                                            This is why in such analyses textbooks recommend using P < 0.05/C,
                                            which, in this case, works out to P < 0.0003. Thus, only those
                                            correlations at that level should be considered significant. And
                                            any attempts to build a theory should only be concerned with
                                            those correlations.

                                            Stephen Carlson
                                            --
                                            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                                            Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                                            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


                                            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                                          • David Gentile
                                            Hello again, I agree 95% is very generous. I used that in reporting Delta because there was little data. With Alpha-Delta I reported 99%. (And lost one
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                              Hello again,

                                              I agree 95% is very generous. I used that in reporting "Delta" because there
                                              was little data.
                                              With "Alpha-Delta" I reported 99%. (And lost one correlation that showed up
                                              in the "Delta-only" test.)

                                              I think P < 0.0003 might be a bit too restrictive at the moment. If I'm not
                                              mistaken, that would be what we want, if we want to be 95% sure that ALL of
                                              them are real.

                                              Actually, I'm looking at the confidence of each one in interpreting it. The
                                              most information is gained by reporting each one with its confidence level,
                                              then you know which ones to look at more closely. At 99% I expect 1 or 2 to
                                              be false, but probably only 1 since a lot are well above 99%. My candidate
                                              for that is 012 with 210.

                                              Most of the controversial ones were at high levels.
                                              222 - 202 > 99.99%
                                              200 - 202 > 99.99%
                                              122 - 112 > 99.9%

                                              Again, I'm glad you understand the results.

                                              Thanks,

                                              Dave Gentile
                                              Riverside, Illinois
                                              M.S. Physics
                                              PhD Management Science candidate

                                              -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              "When you have eliminated the impossible,
                                              whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
                                              - Sherlock Holmes,
                                              in The Sign of Four, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

                                              "Why sometimes I've believed as many as
                                              six impossible things before breakfast."
                                              - The Red Queen,
                                              in Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
                                              To: "Synoptic-L" <Synoptic-L@...>
                                              Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 9:29 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Some numerical results


                                              > At 10:43 AM 12/2/2001 +0000, Ron Price wrote:
                                              > > What surprises me about this whole discussion is that you have been
                                              > >trying to make sense of a set of results which represents a small
                                              > >proportion of the published data, and apparently (unless I've missed
                                              > >something) without any attempt to check for overall consistency.
                                              >
                                              > In this regard, it occurs to me that the 95% level of assessing
                                              > significance is far too generous. 95% implies that one in twenty
                                              > may be wrong, but in our data set we have 19 total sections (222
                                              > through 002) for a total of 171 different pair-wise comparisons
                                              > (19*18/2). If 1 in 20 is wrong (inherent in the 95% level), then
                                              > about 9 of the "significant" correlations are really just to due
                                              > to random chance.
                                              >
                                              > This is why in such analyses textbooks recommend using P < 0.05/C,
                                              > which, in this case, works out to P < 0.0003. Thus, only those
                                              > correlations at that level should be considered significant. And
                                              > any attempts to build a theory should only be concerned with
                                              > those correlations.
                                              >
                                              > Stephen Carlson
                                              > --
                                              > Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                                              > Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                                              > "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                              > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...


                                              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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                                            • Brian E. Wilson
                                              Brian Wilson wrote -- ... Stephen Carlson replied -- ... Stephen, But the aim of the game is to discover the relationship between the synoptic gospels, not the
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                                Brian Wilson wrote --
                                                >
                                                >The more I look at the HHB categorization the more I wonder whether
                                                >analysing the stats reveals the decisions of the editors of the
                                                >Concordance rather than the relationship between the synoptic gospels.
                                                >
                                                Stephen Carlson replied --
                                                >
                                                >Of course, it reveals the decisions of the editors about the
                                                >relationship between the synoptic gospels.
                                                >
                                                Stephen,
                                                But the aim of the game is to discover the relationship between
                                                the synoptic gospels, not the editors' decisions.

                                                I would suggest that a computer could be programmed to categorize every
                                                word of the synoptic gospels into 222, 221, 220, and so on, without
                                                assuming the Two Document Hypothesis (as do the editors of the HHB
                                                Concordance), or any other supposed documentary relationship between the
                                                synoptic gospels. The program might be designed first to search for
                                                strings of words in one synoptic gospel containing at least a stated
                                                number of words (or word-roots) in the same order as strings of words of
                                                the same size in another synoptic gospel. This could be extended to find
                                                similarities of wording in the same order in all three synoptic gospels
                                                within stated parameters. The program would establish triple parallel,
                                                double parallel, and Sondergut pieces of material. The size of each unit
                                                of triple, double, or special, could be, say, at least 8 word-roots in
                                                the same order, though of course a triple, double or special could be
                                                longer than this minimum. Whatever minimum size is laid down would be
                                                arbitrary, but at least the procedure using it would be independent of
                                                any assumed documentary hypothesis. On this basis, the categorization
                                                into 222, 221, 220 and so on could be carried out without making any
                                                assumptions of the documentary relationship between the synoptic
                                                gospels. 222 would represent a word-root present in each synoptic gospel
                                                in a computer-generated triple parallel, and so on. This would give
                                                "clean data", to use Dave Gentile's terminology. It would produce
                                                results that would not be dependent on the decisions of the editors of
                                                the HHB Concordance. I think that ideally this is where the analysis
                                                might have started.
                                                >
                                                >The main question, however, is whether and to what extent the editors'
                                                >judgment is biased to a particular solution to the synoptic problem.
                                                >
                                                I agree. That is one question I have been asking. The other question I
                                                have been raising is to what extent the editors' have applied their
                                                criteria inconsistently.

                                                What is really needed is computer-produced data that is not dependent on
                                                any synoptic documentary hypothesis and that applies criteria
                                                consistently. The HHB Concordance does not provide such data.

                                                Best wishes,
                                                BRIAN WILSON

                                                >HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

                                                Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                                                > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                                                > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                                                _

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                                              • Stephen C. Carlson
                                                ... If you (or anyone else) could produce such a computer program, I d be very impressed. However, one cannot even identify a parallel without supposing some
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Dec 2, 2001
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                                                  At 06:07 PM 12/2/2001 +0000, Brian E. Wilson wrote:
                                                  >I would suggest that a computer could be programmed to categorize every
                                                  >word of the synoptic gospels into 222, 221, 220, and so on, without
                                                  >assuming the Two Document Hypothesis (as do the editors of the HHB
                                                  >Concordance), or any other supposed documentary relationship between the
                                                  >synoptic gospels.

                                                  If you (or anyone else) could produce such a computer program,
                                                  I'd be very impressed. However, one cannot even identify a parallel
                                                  without supposing some documentary relationship between the synoptic
                                                  gospels. For example, the decision to identify Mark's healing of
                                                  the paralytic as a parallel to Matthew's healing of the paralytic --
                                                  but not to Matthew's genealogy -- supposes that there is a documentary
                                                  relationship with the former but not the latter. Of course, most
                                                  decisions about parallelization will not be controversial, but
                                                  they will be for not only for the so-called Mark-Q overlap texts and
                                                  for doublets in one gospel where there is only one instance in the
                                                  others (which of the two in the doublet is "the" parallel?). Even
                                                  in noncontroversial parallels, there is discretion in deciding which
                                                  of two KAIs in Mark correspond to the one KAI in Matthew. Frankly,
                                                  I doubt it can be done objectively, because the theories and hypotheses
                                                  we hold influence our perception of the data. This extends to the
                                                  programmer of the computer as well.

                                                  >>The main question, however, is whether and to what extent the editors'
                                                  >>judgment is biased to a particular solution to the synoptic problem.
                                                  >>
                                                  >I agree. That is one question I have been asking. The other question I
                                                  >have been raising is to what extent the editors' have applied their
                                                  >criteria inconsistently.

                                                  The editors admit their bias on the Mark-Q overlaps, but does that
                                                  bias extend to other portions? You've pointed out some inconsistencies,
                                                  but unless one can show they somehow favor the 2ST, it may be better
                                                  to attribute the inconsistencies to noise rather than bias.

                                                  >What is really needed is computer-produced data that is not dependent on
                                                  >any synoptic documentary hypothesis and that applies criteria
                                                  >consistently.

                                                  I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps a better approach is to ask
                                                  the proponents of the various solutions to produce their own
                                                  "partisan" synopses and concordances that sets forth the data
                                                  in such a manner that renders their solution in the most favorable
                                                  light. Then we can compare them to see how well they handle the
                                                  data. Maybe Dungan was right after all that there is no neutral
                                                  synopsis.

                                                  Stephen Carlson
                                                  --
                                                  Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                                                  Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                                                  "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35


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                                                • Brian E. Wilson
                                                  Brian Wilson wrote -- ... Stephen Carlson replied -- ... Stephen, I do not understand your argument here. The occurrence of parallels between Mark s healing of
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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                                                    Brian Wilson wrote --
                                                    >
                                                    >I would suggest that a computer could be programmed to categorize every
                                                    >word of the synoptic gospels into 222, 221, 220, and so on, without
                                                    >assuming the Two Document Hypothesis (as do the editors of the HHB
                                                    >Concordance), or any other supposed documentary relationship between
                                                    >the synoptic gospels. The program might be designed first to search for
                                                    >strings of words in one synoptic gospel containing at least a stated
                                                    >number of words (or word-roots) in the same order as strings of words
                                                    >of the same size in another synoptic gospel. This could be extended to
                                                    >find similarities of wording in the same order in all three synoptic
                                                    >gospels within stated parameters. The program would establish triple
                                                    >parallel, double parallel, and Sondergut pieces of material. The size
                                                    >of each unit of triple, double, or special, could be, say, at least 8
                                                    >word-roots in the same order, though of course a triple, double or
                                                    >special could be longer than this minimum. Whatever minimum size is
                                                    >laid down would be arbitrary, but at least the procedure using it would
                                                    >be independent of any assumed documentary hypothesis. On this basis,
                                                    >the categorization into 222, 221, 220 and so on could be carried out
                                                    >without making any assumptions of the documentary relationship between
                                                    >the synoptic gospels. 222 would represent a word-root present in each
                                                    >synoptic gospel in a computer-generated triple parallel, and so on.
                                                    >
                                                    Stephen Carlson replied --
                                                    >
                                                    >If you (or anyone else) could produce such a computer program,
                                                    >I'd be very impressed. However, one cannot even identify a parallel
                                                    >without supposing some documentary relationship between the synoptic
                                                    >gospels. For example, the decision to identify Mark's healing of
                                                    >the paralytic as a parallel to Matthew's healing of the paralytic --
                                                    >but not to Matthew's genealogy -- supposes that there is a documentary
                                                    >relationship with the former but not the latter.
                                                    >
                                                    Stephen,
                                                    I do not understand your argument here. The occurrence of
                                                    parallels between Mark's healing of the paralytic and Matthew's healing
                                                    of the paralytic but not between Matthew's healing of the paralytic and
                                                    his Genealogy, is precisely the sort of result such a computer program
                                                    would produce without assuming a documentary hypothesis such as the 2DH,
                                                    FH or GH. There are many instances of strings of, say, no more than 20
                                                    words in the Markan healing that contain at least 8 word-roots the same,
                                                    and in the same order, in a string of no more than 20 words in the
                                                    Matthean healing. On the other hand, there is no string of no more than
                                                    20 words in the Matthaean healing that contains at least 8 word-roots
                                                    the same and in the same order in a corresponding string of no more than
                                                    20 words in the Genealogy in Matthew. The criterion would establish that
                                                    the two healing stories include parallels in the sense of having many
                                                    word roots the same and in the same order within strings of specified
                                                    lengths, but that the Matthaean healing and the Genealogy in Matthew do
                                                    not include parallels in this sense. It would be easy to set up a
                                                    computer program to show this.

                                                    Indeed, we could carry out such a check by hand, without using a
                                                    computer program to spot parallels. I have just done this. There are no
                                                    pairs of strings that meet the criteria above between the healing of the
                                                    paralytic in Mt and the Genealogy in Mt. However, the following string
                                                    of 20 words is found in the Matthaean healing of the paralytic --

                                                    KAI IDWN O IHSOUJ THN PISTIN AUTWN EIPEN TW PARALUTIKW QARSEI TEKNON
                                                    AFIENTAI SOU AI AMARTIAI KAI IDOU TINEJ TWN

                                                    And it has 17 word roots the same and in the same order as the string of
                                                    words in the Markan healing of the paralytic --

                                                    KAI IDWN O IHSOUJ THN PISTIN AUTWN LEGEI TW PARALUTIKW TEKNON AFI/ENTAI
                                                    SOU AI AMARTIAI HSAN DE TINEJ TWN

                                                    Similarly, in the same two passages, the following are pairs of strings,
                                                    one string from each passage, of no more than 20 words each such that in
                                                    each pair there are at least 8 word roots the same and in the same order
                                                    as in a string of no more than 20 words the same and in the same order
                                                    in the other member of the pair --

                                                    EN TAIJ KARDIAIJ UMWN TI GAR ESTIN EUKOPWTERON EIPEIN AFIENTAI SOU AI
                                                    AMARTIAI H EIPEIN EGEIRE KAI

                                                    EN TAIJ KARDIAIJ UMWN TI ESTIN EUKOPWTERON EIPEI=N TW PARALUTIKW
                                                    AFI/ENTAI SOU AI AMARTIAI H EIPEIN EGEIRE KAI

                                                    ===

                                                    PERIPATEI INA DE EIDHTE OTI ECOUSIAN EXEI O UIOJ TOU ANQRWPOU EPI THJ
                                                    GHJ AFIENAI AMARTIAJ TOTE LEGEI TW PARALUTIKW

                                                    PERIPATEI INA DE EIDHTE OTI ECOUSIAN EXEI O UIOJ TOU ANQRWPOU AFIENAI
                                                    AMARTIAJ EPI THJ GHJ LEGEI TW PARALUTIKW

                                                    ===

                                                    EGERQEIJ ARON SOU THN KLINHN KAI UPAGE EIJ TON OIKON SOU KAI EGERQEIJ

                                                    EGEIRE ARON TON KRABATTON SOU KAI UPAGE EIJ TON OIKON SOU KAI HGERQH

                                                    ===

                                                    Each of these strings is a pair of parallels between Mt and Mk, and many
                                                    words within these strings (after doing the same sort of comparison with
                                                    Lk) could be categorized 220, 221, and so on. These are by no means all
                                                    the parallels of this type that can be listed. These parallels, and
                                                    others, between Mt and Mk could have been spotted by a computer
                                                    systematically comparing every string of 20 words in Mt with every
                                                    string of 20 words in Mk, and looking for at least 8 word-roots the same
                                                    and in the same order in each pair of strings compared.

                                                    The point is that it is totally unnecessary to assume a synoptic
                                                    documentary hypothesis such as the 2DH, FH or GH, to establish that two
                                                    pieces of material, one in Mt and the other in Mk, are parallels, or
                                                    that two pieces of material in Mt are not parallels.

                                                    You also wrote --
                                                    >
                                                    >Maybe Dungan was right after all that there is no neutral synopsis.
                                                    >
                                                    I am sure he was right. The HHB Concordance, however, is not a synopsis,
                                                    and the question is whether such a Concordance can be produced without
                                                    assuming a documentary hypothesis such as the 2DH, FH or GH. The answer
                                                    is that it can.

                                                    In the same way, a colour-coded text showing similarities of wording
                                                    between the synoptic gospels, like W. R. Farmer's SYNOPTICON, is not a
                                                    synopsis. Such a colour-coded text of the synoptic gospels can be
                                                    constructed without assuming any particular solution to the synoptic
                                                    problem, and without using any synopsis.

                                                    Best wishes,
                                                    BRIAN WILSON

                                                    >HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

                                                    Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                                                    > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                                                    > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                                                    _

                                                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                                                  • Emmanuel Fritsch
                                                    ... I see some different biases in an automatic process : - Brian pointed out that a gospel may be selected, and the priority of this gospel (typicallly :
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                                                      "Stephen C. Carlson" wrote :
                                                      >
                                                      > Brian E. Wilson wrote:
                                                      > >I would suggest that a computer could be programmed to categorize every
                                                      > >word of the synoptic gospels into 222, 221, 220, and so on, without
                                                      > >assuming the Two Document Hypothesis (as do the editors of the HHB
                                                      > >Concordance), or any other supposed documentary relationship between the
                                                      > >synoptic gospels.
                                                      >
                                                      > If you (or anyone else) could produce such a computer program,
                                                      > I'd be very impressed. However, one cannot even identify a parallel
                                                      > without supposing some documentary relationship between the synoptic
                                                      > gospels. [...] Even
                                                      > in noncontroversial parallels, there is discretion in deciding which
                                                      > of two KAIs in Mark correspond to the one KAI in Matthew. Frankly,
                                                      > I doubt it can be done objectively, because the theories and hypotheses
                                                      > we hold influence our perception of the data. This extends to the
                                                      > programmer of the computer as well.

                                                      I see some different biases in an automatic process :
                                                      - Brian pointed out that a gospel may be selected, and the priority
                                                      of this gospel (typicallly : Mark) is assumed, biasing the result.
                                                      In fact, in the treatment, the input gospels should be processed
                                                      with equity.
                                                      - Even if synoptic gospels are processed in equity, some a priori
                                                      may influence the result. I mean particularly to the pattern
                                                      of redaction process that will be seen as most probable : a
                                                      first small document that is step by step increased, or a large
                                                      first document that as been cut toward our gospel. the balance
                                                      between deletion and completion in synoptic process is a global
                                                      a priori in synoptic study.
                                                      - Then, an automatic process would hardly integrate all the other
                                                      information, particularly the links between Luke and John.


                                                      > >What is really needed is computer-produced data that is not dependent on
                                                      > >any synoptic documentary hypothesis and that applies criteria
                                                      > >consistently.
                                                      >
                                                      > I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps a better approach is to ask
                                                      > the proponents of the various solutions to produce their own
                                                      > "partisan" synopses and concordances that sets forth the data
                                                      > in such a manner that renders their solution in the most favorable
                                                      > light. Then we can compare them to see how well they handle the
                                                      > data. Maybe Dungan was right after all that there is no neutral
                                                      > synopsis.

                                                      Are there any referenced biases in Boismard's Synopse ?
                                                      Do you know about a comparison of different existing synopses ?

                                                      a+
                                                      manu

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                                                    • David Inglis
                                                      ... Dave, did you actually mean: why does 221 look like both 121 and 211, but 122 look only like 121 and not 112 , or have I actually got the wrong data? In
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Dec 19, 2001
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                                                        Way back on Dec 1 Dave Gentile wrote:

                                                        > But perhaps the real question is, why does
                                                        > 122 look like both 121 and 112, but 221 look only like 121 and not 211?

                                                        Dave, did you actually mean: "why does 221 look like both 121 and 211, but
                                                        122 look only like 121 and not 112", or have I actually got the wrong data?
                                                        In any case, have you decided why?

                                                        Dave Inglis
                                                        david@...
                                                        3538 O'Connor Drive
                                                        Lafayette, CA, USA



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                                                      • David Gentile
                                                        Hi Dave, The case reversed itself with more data. It was 121 - 122 now its 121 - 221 . These appear to be redactor effects / chance , they vanish in the macro
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Dec 20, 2001
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                                                          Hi Dave,

                                                          The case reversed itself with more data. It was 121 - 122 now its 121 - 221
                                                          . These appear to be redactor effects / chance , they vanish in the macro
                                                          categories.

                                                          Dave Gentile
                                                          Riverside, Illinois
                                                          M.S. Physics
                                                          Ph.D. Management Science candidate

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "David Inglis" <david@...>
                                                          To: <Synoptic-L@...>
                                                          Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 12:54 AM
                                                          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Some numerical results


                                                          > Way back on Dec 1 Dave Gentile wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > But perhaps the real question is, why does
                                                          > > 122 look like both 121 and 112, but 221 look only like 121 and not 211?
                                                          >
                                                          > Dave, did you actually mean: "why does 221 look like both 121 and 211, but
                                                          > 122 look only like 121 and not 112", or have I actually got the wrong
                                                          data?
                                                          > In any case, have you decided why?
                                                          >
                                                          > Dave Inglis



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