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[Synoptic-L] deductive proof and the synoptic problem

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  • Brian E. Wilson
    Emmanuel Fritsch wrote -- ... Emmanuel, I did not understand this was what you meant in your previous contribution. The term reverse hypothesis is used
    Message 1 of 33 , Nov 1, 2001
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      Emmanuel Fritsch wrote --
      >
      >Do you understand, Brian, that you are debating here on "all swans are
      >non-white", which is absolutely not the reverse of "all swans are
      >white" ? So your whole mail suffers from this confusion, and may not
      >hurt this basic rule of logic : If "A" is false, "non-A" is true. The
      >reverse hypothesis of "all swans are white" is : "at least one swan is
      >not white".

      Emmanuel,
      I did not understand this was what you meant in your previous
      contribution. The term "reverse hypothesis" is used differently from
      this in my experience. It seems to me now that what you meant was the
      negation of the hypothesis. On this understanding, what you meant by
      "non-A" was that A is false. When I read your message, to me the terms
      "reverse hypothesis" and "non-A" meant something weaker than the total
      negation or falsity of a hypothesis. This misunderstanding was the
      source of the "confusion". Reading through your recent contribution
      again, I can understand most of it on the basis of the clarification you
      have now made. (Also as a result of reading through your recent
      contributions, it now seems to me there may have been misunderstanding
      possibly as a result of us using the term "deduce" with different
      meanings.)

      You continued --
      >
      >The reverse hypothesis of "a single redactor is the author of composite
      >dua-story" is : "at least two different redactors are author of
      >composite dua-story".
      >
      I understand you to mean here that --

      (1) I have maintained that all dua-stories originated from one writer

      (2) the idea that originally one writer created dua-stories found in the
      synoptic gospels is false

      (3) it follows from (2) that more than one writer created dua-stories
      found in the synoptic gospels

      I agree with (1).

      I do not accept that you have shown (2) to be true. I discuss this
      further below.

      Since (3) hinges on (2), the validity of (2) needs to be settled before
      further comment can be made on this.

      Please correct the above if I have misunderstood.

      I think your most recent version of the argument for statement (2) is in
      what you wrote on 26 October when you asked --
      >
      >Apologies for these basic questions :
      >- how many composite dua-stories do you find in gospels ?
      >- what is the volume of triple tradition, compared to the amount of all
      >gospel material ?
      >
      One answer to the first question is that to date I have observed 31
      story dualities in the synoptic gospels. Since each story duality
      necessarily consists of one simple dua-story and one composite dua-
      story, there are 31 occurrences of dua-stories. I am not sure, however,
      that I have understood your question correctly. Are you in fact asking
      for the number of occurrences of composite dua-stories observed? Please
      note that some of the 31 story dualities are such that both the simple
      and the composite dua-story occur in the same synoptic gospel, whereas
      some other story dualities are such that the simple dua-story occurs
      only in a different synoptic gospel from the composite dua-story. Note
      also that in some instances a dua-story in one synoptic gospel is
      parallel to a dua-story in another synoptic gospel, but that most dua-
      stories are parallel to stories that are not dua-stories in another
      synoptic gospel. For instance, the Man with the Withered Hand is not a
      dua-story in Mark even though the Man with a Withered Hand is a dua-
      story in Luke and even though the story of the Man with a Withered Hand
      is a triple tradition story.

      I am not sure I understand your second question. Is this about the
      number of words in the triple tradition compared with the number of
      words in the synoptic gospels? If so, then there are 1889 words in
      exactly the same grammatical form in the same context in the triple
      tradition (these words are in blue in W. R. Farmer's "SYNOPTICON").
      There are 18365 words in Matthew, 11267 words in Mark, and 19492 words
      in Luke. Thus about 10 per cent of the words of Mt are triple tradition
      words, about 6 per cent of the words of Mk are triple tradition words,
      and about 10 per cent of the words of Lk are triple tradition words. But
      again, am I answering the question your intended to be answered? The
      question could mean many different things.

      The up-dated outline of your argument in the same message was --
      >
      >My chain of argument still remains, and you can address it if
      >you want. Here is it, just modified a little to fit better the
      >new situation :
      >
      >The demonstration used on LTH may be applied whatever the
      >synoptic theory : how may we explain a possible (soon verified)
      >lack of composite dua-stories in triple tradition ? If you posit an
      >early redaction by a single author for composite dua-stories (or for
      >any other given pattern we found in the three synoptic), it is expected
      >to find it in triple tradition, with a significant frequency. It would
      >be hard to explain that most of them would have been cancelled
      >deliberately from triple tradition. If there is a lack of the pattern
      >in the triple tradition, it may not come from an early redactor, and so
      >it has been produced, for a significant part, at the end of the
      >redaction process.
      >
      In the triple tradition, to date the only observed instance of a
      narrative that is a composite dua-story in Mt, Mk and in Lk, is the
      Transfiguration. It seems to me you are suggesting there is an
      appropriate statistical model and test that would show it is very
      unlikely that only one triple tradition occurrence of three composite
      stories in parallel if we assume the LTH to be true. It seems to me also
      that you have not told us what statistical model is being used, or the
      null hypothesis, or the particular statistical test you have in mind, or
      the level of significance you would require in the test. Would you be
      able, please, to supply these details so that we can consider your
      argument in an informed way?

      Best wishes,
      BRIAN WILSON

      >HOMEPAGE *** RECENTLY UPDATED *** http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

      Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
      > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
      > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
      _

      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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    • Emmanuel Fritsch
      ... OK, your compute looks good. I will analyse it. There is just a little question we have still to solve, when you wrote : If the expected numbers are
      Message 33 of 33 , Nov 12, 2001
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        > For the calculated
        > probabilities above can also be used to estimate the number of dua-
        > stories, simple and composite, that would be expected to occur in each
        > synoptic gospel, and these expectations can be checked against the
        > observed numbers. If the expected numbers are wildly different from the
        > observed, then this would throw doubt on the LTH. If they are reasonably
        > close, this would support the LTH. We should expect --

        OK, your compute looks good. I will analyse it.
        There is just a little question we have still to solve,
        when you wrote : "If the expected numbers are wildly
        different from the observed, then this would throw
        doubt on the LTH", we have to decide how significant
        should be that difference.

        But in fact, given the low number of story duality,
        I think it will be hard to compute the significance
        of the results, and I will retract my assertion on
        composite story lack in triple tradition

        More precision later.

        a+
        manu

        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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