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Re: [Synoptic-L] Mt bibliography

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/6/2001 6:23:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, K.Hanhart@net.HCC.nl writes:
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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      In a message dated 7/6/2001 6:23:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
      K.Hanhart@... writes:

      << The term re-Judaizing isn't a happy one, since Mark could well have been
      the
      one born in Jerusalem. I would rather believe that Matthew looked askance
      at this Pauline trend of thought he detected in Mark. Not a tittle or
      iota... >>

      Without necessarily questioning, in principle, your identification of the
      author of Mk, I would suggest that your last comment here does not do full
      justice to the sense in which Matt is often described as a re-Judaizing of
      the gospel (by comparison to Mark). Matthew's consistent relating of Jesus'
      identity and mission to Israel, his entirely unselfconscious Jewish
      modalities of thought (explicit references to Torah, to Israel as a PEOPLE
      and ITS leaders, etc.) have nothing directly to do with a possible resistance
      to a Pauline trend of thought.

      Leonard Maluf

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    • Brian E. Wilson
      Mark Goodacre wrote -- ... Mark, I am sure many would be very interested to read your notes on the course you give every year on Matthew at Birmingham, UK.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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        Mark Goodacre wrote --
        >
        >Since I teach Matthew every year here, I'd be interested to hear
        >others' opinions on what's worth reading too -- it's always a useful
        >exercise.
        >
        Mark,
        I am sure many would be very interested to read your notes on the
        course you give every year on Matthew at Birmingham, UK. Perhaps a book
        on this one day?

        Best wishes,
        BRIAN WILSON

        >HOMEPAGE *** RECENTLY UPDATED *** http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk/

        Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
        > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
        > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
        _

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      • John Lupia
        Synoptic-L@bham.ac.uk Steve Black wrote: I wonder if Mt would expect Gentile converts to be circumcised. The issue isn t directly mentioned, but Mt s high view
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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          Synoptic-L@...

          Steve Black wrote:

          I wonder if Mt would expect Gentile converts to be circumcised. The
          issue isn't directly mentioned, but Mt's high view of the law might
          suggest that he would see circumcision as a requirement.
          --
          Matthew 28,19 gives the Church formula for baptism. Yet, Acts 19,1-7
          relates c. AD 54 that at Ephesus this formula was unheard of
          incontrovertibly showing that Matthew must date no earlier than AD 55. Now
          the point is that during the Fall or Winter of AD 49 the First Church
          Council of Jerusalem settled the question of circumcision you have raised.
          So, Matthew's Gospel, written by a high ranking member (apostle) of this
          same Church never mentions the requirement for convert circumcision but ONLY
          baptism in the formula found in Matthew 28,19.

          Cordially in Christ,
          John





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        • Steve Black
          ... I think it (assuming Markan priority for a moment) clearer to suggest that Mt was re-Judaizing Mark s presentation rather than the gospel story . The
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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            >
            >Mark
            >No, not necessarily. Though I wouldn't want to rule out the thought
            >that it was used "evangelistically", I wonder whether Matthew is
            >attempting to propogate among Christians a more Torah-observant
            >Christian Judaism, in which the householder draws from his
            >treasure-chest both "the new" and "the old" (13.52). There is a
            >contrast with some other forms of early Christianity, and I would
            >agree with Leonard Maluf's comments to the extent that Matthew
            >does look, in some ways, like a re-primitivizing of the gospel story,
            >an attempt, perhaps, to re-Judaize, even "re-Jesuize" Jesus (for
            >want of better terms). What do you think?


            I think it (assuming Markan priority for a moment) clearer to suggest
            that Mt was "re-Judaizing" Mark's presentation rather than the
            "gospel story". The latter is too broad a series of possibilities to
            be useful. [ie. was he also re-Judaizing "Q", "M", and his
            community's living traditions?)

            If Mt wrote for a Jewish-Christian community, it can be assumed that
            they were already "Judaized". So I guess the question is to what
            degree Mt writes for Gentiles or for Jews.

            That Mt saw Gentiles as being included is clear - to what extent
            perhaps is not.

            I wonder if Mt would expect Gentile converts to be circumcised. The
            issue isn't directly mentioned, but Mt's high view of the law might
            suggest that he would see circumcision as a requirement.
            --
            Steve Black

            Dig deep for dreams, or you will be toppled by slogans...
            ee cummings

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          • Jeff Peterson
            ... 28:19 clearly reflects approval and endorsement of a mission to Gentiles (adumbrated in the homage of the Magi, the centurion s servant, Isaiah 42:4 apud
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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              Mark Goodacre wrote:

              > The difficulty with the Bauckham book, which I love, is that it really
              > is only a beginning point and stops short of many of the interesting
              > nitty-gritty questions and applications to particular Gospels. I
              > understand what you are saying, though I would ask two obvious
              > questions: (1) if Matthew is intended primarily or exclusively for
              > Jewish Christians, what should one make of 28.19? and (2) if
              > Matthew was intended primarily or exclusively for Jewish
              > Christians, should we say that he has failed in this intention since
              > the Gospel was so popular from so early on among so many?

              28:19 clearly reflects approval and endorsement of a mission to Gentiles
              (adumbrated in the homage of the Magi, the centurion's servant, Isaiah
              42:4 apud 12:21, the Canaanitess, Jesus' prophecies in 24:14 and 26:13
              et al.), but on previous reading Mt has seemed addressed to Jewish
              churches/leaders engaged in mission to Gentiles rather than to churches
              themselves composed of Gentiles or their leadership.

              I suppose the passage that has loomed largest in this construction of
              the audience is 23:23, which I have taken as presupposing Torah
              observance as a norm among the recipients. But this may not distinguish
              carefully enough authorial setting/theology from implied recipents,
              which is of course one thing Bauckham et al. are asking us to do. You're
              of course right about the position THE GOSPELS FOR ALL CHRISTIANS holds,
              at the beginning of a discussion, not the end.

              > My own tentative view is that Matthew is Jewish Christian
              > propoganda, written by a Jewish Christian who is effectively re-
              > Judaizing Mark and Mark's Jesus, but it's propoganda that he
              > thinks (rightly, as it turns out) will appeal to a wide target audience.
              > Does that make any sense?

              I think so; maybe Matthew then contributed to the philoJudaism of
              Ignatius' opponents? Markus Bockmuehl's JEWISH LAW IN GENTILE CHURCHES
              (which I've seen but not had opportunity to read) may be of use here.

              Jeff

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            • Jack Kilmon
              ... From: Steve Black To: Synoptic-L Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L]
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Steve Black" <sblack@...>
                To: "Synoptic-L" <Synoptic-L@...>
                Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 1:10 PM
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] re-Judaizing Matthew


                > >
                > >Mark
                > >No, not necessarily. Though I wouldn't want to rule out the thought
                > >that it was used "evangelistically", I wonder whether Matthew is
                > >attempting to propogate among Christians a more Torah-observant
                > >Christian Judaism, in which the householder draws from his
                > >treasure-chest both "the new" and "the old" (13.52). There is a
                > >contrast with some other forms of early Christianity, and I would
                > >agree with Leonard Maluf's comments to the extent that Matthew
                > >does look, in some ways, like a re-primitivizing of the gospel story,
                > >an attempt, perhaps, to re-Judaize, even "re-Jesuize" Jesus (for
                > >want of better terms). What do you think?
                >
                >
                > I think it (assuming Markan priority for a moment) clearer to suggest
                > that Mt was "re-Judaizing" Mark's presentation rather than the
                > "gospel story". The latter is too broad a series of possibilities to
                > be useful. [ie. was he also re-Judaizing "Q", "M", and his
                > community's living traditions?)
                >
                > If Mt wrote for a Jewish-Christian community, it can be assumed that
                > they were already "Judaized". So I guess the question is to what
                > degree Mt writes for Gentiles or for Jews.
                >
                > That Mt saw Gentiles as being included is clear - to what extent
                > perhaps is not.
                >
                > I wonder if Mt would expect Gentile converts to be circumcised. The
                > issue isn't directly mentioned, but Mt's high view of the law might
                > suggest that he would see circumcision as a requirement.

                I think that the Matthean hagiographer wrote shortly after the institution
                of the
                Birkhat haMinim in 85 CE. As a Hellenistic Syrian Jew, he may have seen
                the Antiochene gentile participation in "the way" on a sharp increase and
                Jewish participation on a decline. His audience were Hellenistic Jews to
                whom he is saying, "Hey! This is a JEWISH thing." On the Markan priority
                issue, the very name of the Gospel appears to indicate that it utilized a
                source document thought to have been composed by the disciple Matthew,
                hence it would have been conventional at the time to transfer the apostolic
                "authority" of Matthew to the Gospel by giving it his name. This
                anthology/logia/"Q" would seem to confirm it as complementary to
                Mark as a narrative source document.
                Luke's sayings source appears to me to have been an Aramaic document
                which, unlike the Matthean author, he translates himself. A Greek
                translation used by AMt and an Aramaic document used by ALk gives
                more credibility (to me) of a genuine "Q" and, by inference, Mark
                as a primary narrative source to both Matthew and Luke. Hence my
                viiew that first Mark + Aramaic Q ---->Luke (or proto-Luke) then
                Mark + Greek Q ---->Matthew. Matthew may not have been
                "re-judaizing" Mark as much as "re-judaizing" Luke.

                Jack


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              • Steve Black
                ... John Your argument assumes historical accuracy for Acts 19, and Acts 15 (the report of the council of Jerusalem). Acts was written from a distinctly
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 6, 2001
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                  >
                  >--
                  >Matthew 28,19 gives the Church formula for baptism. Yet, Acts 19,1-7
                  >relates c. AD 54 that at Ephesus this formula was unheard of
                  >incontrovertibly showing that Matthew must date no earlier than AD 55. Now
                  >the point is that during the Fall or Winter of AD 49 the First Church
                  >Council of Jerusalem settled the question of circumcision you have raised.
                  >So, Matthew's Gospel, written by a high ranking member (apostle) of this
                  >same Church never mentions the requirement for convert circumcision but ONLY
                  >baptism in the formula found in Matthew 28,19.
                  >
                  >Cordially in Christ,
                  John

                  Your argument assumes historical accuracy for Acts 19, and Acts 15
                  (the report of the council of Jerusalem). Acts was written from a
                  distinctly pro-Paul position, and any historical kernel that is
                  within it has inevitably been rung threw that "filter". There is also
                  the well known conflicting presentations of the council of Jerusalem
                  by Luke, and the one given by Paul himself in Gal. that calls Luke
                  account into some doubt.

                  All this aside, Galatians itself assumes that the issue wasn't really
                  settled at the council! Why was Gal. written in the first place if
                  not to combat Christians who were *still* saying that Gentiles needed
                  to be circumcised?
                  --
                  Peace

                  Steve Black
                  Vancouver, BC


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                • Maluflen@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/6/2001 2:32:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jkilmon@historian.net writes:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 7, 2001
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                    In a message dated 7/6/2001 2:32:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    jkilmon@... writes:

                    << I think that the Matthean hagiographer wrote shortly after the institution
                    of the Birkhat haMinim in 85 CE. As a Hellenistic Syrian Jew, he may have
                    seen
                    the Antiochene gentile participation in "the way" on a sharp increase and
                    Jewish participation on a decline. His audience were Hellenistic Jews to
                    whom he is saying, "Hey! This is a JEWISH thing." >>

                    This simply doesn't seem to me to be the KIND of Jewishness we find in
                    Matthew. Matthew is not trying to MAKE the Jesus thing Jewish. There is
                    nothing defensive or apologetic about Matthew's Jewishness; he takes fully
                    for granted that the messianic community is the culmination of historical
                    Judaism which has been brought to fulfillment in the person of their Messiah.
                    The general trend of history since the time this document was produced has
                    been to gradually dissociate Jesus from these strictly Jewish roots so as to
                    heighten his appeal to non-Jewish adherents. This process may be seen already
                    in the Gospel of Mark, with the use of the title "Son of God" for Jesus in a
                    kind of detached way, i.e., in a way that does not clearly stress the
                    connection of this title with Israel, its history and its writings.

                    Leonard Maluf

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                  • Brian Tucker
                    ... to ... already ... a ... Greetings, The son of God idea has possible Jewish connections and does not need to be divorced from its Second Temple context.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 7, 2001
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                      Jack wrote:
                      >> whom he is saying, "Hey! This is a JEWISH thing." >>

                      Leonard Maluf responded:
                      > The general trend of history since the time this document was produced has
                      > been to gradually dissociate Jesus from these strictly Jewish roots so as
                      to
                      > heighten his appeal to non-Jewish adherents. This process may be seen
                      already
                      > in the Gospel of Mark, with the use of the title "Son of God" for Jesus in
                      a
                      > kind of detached way, i.e., in a way that does not clearly stress the
                      > connection of this title with Israel, its history and its writings.

                      Greetings,

                      The son of God idea has possible Jewish connections and does not need to be
                      divorced from its Second Temple context. 4Q246 (whether taken as a negative
                      text (Ed Cook) or positive text (John Collins)).

                      Here is the quote: 4Q246 2:1 "He will be called the Son of God, they will
                      call him the son of the Most High..."

                      It appears that the 'son of God' changes in Mark cannot a priori assume to
                      be non-Jewish, though there may be other reasons for affirming such a shift.
                      I would grant that he may not "stress" certain areas of "connection",
                      however, there appears to be some precedent for 'son of God' in Jewish
                      literature and thinking during the Second Temple.

                      Thanks,
                      Brian Tucker
                      Riverview, MI
                      Niqmmadu@...
                      editor@...
                      http://journalofbiblicalstudies.org



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                    • Maluflen@aol.com
                      In a message dated 7/7/2001 8:10:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Niqmaddu@hotmail.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 7, 2001
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                        In a message dated 7/7/2001 8:10:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        Niqmaddu@... writes:

                        << It appears that the 'son of God' changes in Mark cannot a priori assume to
                        be non-Jewish, though there may be other reasons for affirming such a shift.
                        I would grant that he may not "stress" certain areas of "connection",
                        however, there appears to be some precedent for 'son of God' in Jewish
                        literature and thinking during the Second Temple.>>

                        I agree with all of this, and never intended to say anything different. After
                        all, Matthew too uses "son of God" in a variety of different contexts, but
                        usually in ways that reflect more clearly than in Mark the background of the
                        expression in the Jewish Scriptures and contemporary Judaism. The possible
                        Hellenistic or Roman-imperial flavor of the expression in some Markan texts
                        should not, as you say, be assumed a priori, but many scholars have at least
                        thought, after working with the text of Mark, that such non-Jewish overtones
                        are in fact present in some of Mark's texts ("son of God" seems in Mark to
                        sometimes carry the general connotation of a "divine being", as in the
                        Greco-Roman world). The Jewish overtones of the expression have not, however,
                        been entirely forgotten or suppressed in Mark.

                        Leonard Maluf

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                      • Brian Tucker
                        ... contexts, but usually in ways that reflect more clearly than in Mark the background of the expression in the Jewish Scriptures and contemporary Judaism.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 7, 2001
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                          Leonard wrote:

                          >> After all, Matthew too uses "son of God" in a variety of different
                          contexts, but usually in ways that reflect more clearly than in Mark the
                          background of the expression in the Jewish Scriptures and contemporary
                          Judaism.>>

                          I think you are absolutely correct. Not to divert from the main point,
                          however, I am curious as to your understanding of the background of Luke's
                          use in 1:32-33: 'He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most
                          High...and of his kingdom there will be know end. Does this fit more in a
                          Jewish mindset or a Hellenistic/Roman?



                          >>...such non-Jewish overtones are in fact present in some of Mark's texts
                          ("son of God" seems in Mark to sometimes carry the general connotation of a
                          "divine being", as in the Greco-Roman world). >>

                          It is interesting to note the differences in the usage of this phrase. If
                          4Q246 was based on Antiochus IV (170 BCE) then the prevailing useage for a
                          Jewish person would be negative, possibly. If one ignores the context (what
                          little there is of 4Q246) and sees this as something about messiah (e.g. 2
                          Sam 7:14) this would shed light on its useage.

                          It may also be instructive to note Antiochus chosen name 'Epiphanes' (Gk.
                          appearance) would not have had a positive reception by most Jews, however,
                          it may have been more accepted in a Hellenistic/Roman setting. Cook remarks,
                          "encapsulated [Epiphanes] the notion of a human king as God manifest. Such
                          human pretensions to deity have never been welcome in Judaism and were
                          condemned out of hand in the prophecies of Isa (14:12-21) and Ezekiel
                          (28:1-10)." (1996:269)

                          It is a wonder that either evangelist chose this potentially misunderstood
                          term. Though it is beyond the scope of our current forum, this may be behind
                          the misunderstanding of (John 10:33)?

                          I am also curious as to how we determine the implied readers would have
                          understood the nuanced useage of 'son of God' in its Hellenistic/Roman
                          useage versus its Jewish useage?

                          Also, without being pedantic which places to we see this sort of redaction
                          occuring? I guess I'll look it up... :-) Assuming Markan priority; Matthew
                          using Mark and that Luke using Matthew and Mark (Goulder/Goodacre).

                          Thanks,
                          Brian Tucker
                          Riverview, MI
                          Niqmaddu@...
                          editor@...
                          http://journalofbiblicalstudies.org




                          The Jewish overtones of the expression have not, however,
                          > been entirely forgotten or suppressed in Mark.
                          >
                          > Leonard Maluf
                          >

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                        • Tim Reynolds
                          If Mt s wedding garment insertion isn t a circumcision ruling I can t think what else it might be. Tim Reynolds ... Synoptic-L Homepage:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 7, 2001
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                            If Mt's wedding garment insertion isn't a circumcision ruling I can't
                            think what else it might be.

                            Tim Reynolds

                            Steve Black wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >--
                            > >Matthew 28,19 gives the Church formula for baptism. Yet, Acts 19,1-7
                            > >relates c. AD 54 that at Ephesus this formula was unheard of
                            > >incontrovertibly showing that Matthew must date no earlier than AD 55. Now
                            > >the point is that during the Fall or Winter of AD 49 the First Church
                            > >Council of Jerusalem settled the question of circumcision you have raised.
                            > >So, Matthew's Gospel, written by a high ranking member (apostle) of this
                            > >same Church never mentions the requirement for convert circumcision but ONLY
                            > >baptism in the formula found in Matthew 28,19.
                            > >
                            > >Cordially in Christ,
                            > John
                            >
                            > Your argument assumes historical accuracy for Acts 19, and Acts 15
                            > (the report of the council of Jerusalem). Acts was written from a
                            > distinctly pro-Paul position, and any historical kernel that is
                            > within it has inevitably been rung threw that "filter". There is also
                            > the well known conflicting presentations of the council of Jerusalem
                            > by Luke, and the one given by Paul himself in Gal. that calls Luke
                            > account into some doubt.
                            >
                            > All this aside, Galatians itself assumes that the issue wasn't really
                            > settled at the council! Why was Gal. written in the first place if
                            > not to combat Christians who were *still* saying that Gentiles needed
                            > to be circumcised?
                            > --
                            > Peace
                            >
                            > Steve Black
                            > Vancouver, BC
                            >
                            > Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                            > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...

                            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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                          • Maluflen@aol.com
                            In a message dated 7/7/2001 10:00:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Niqmaddu@hotmail.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 8, 2001
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                              In a message dated 7/7/2001 10:00:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                              Niqmaddu@... writes:

                              << I think you are absolutely correct. Not to divert from the main point,
                              however, I am curious as to your understanding of the background of Luke's
                              use in 1:32-33: 'He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most
                              High...and of his kingdom there will be no end. Does this fit more in a
                              Jewish mindset or a Hellenistic/Roman?>>

                              I think this entire section of Luke fits in better with a Jewish mindset, but
                              nevertheless uses expressions that would be well received in the Greco-Roman
                              world as well. Fitzmyer points to parallels here to fragmentary evidence from
                              Qumran (so, more or less contemporary Judaism); there are also remote
                              biblical parallels to "he will be great" (cf. Gen 16:12), and for "of his
                              kingdom there will be no end" (Dan 7:14; Is 9:6); but Luke is, I think, also
                              aware of the fact that hUPSISTOS was a classical title for Zeus in the Greek
                              world as well. In other words, I don't have a point of view here that differs
                              greatly from fairly standard scholarly commentary on this verse.

                              Leonard Maluf

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