Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Synoptic-L] The Papias Issue

Expand Messages
  • John Lupia
    John N. Lupia 501 North Avenue B-1 Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA JLupia2@excite.com To List members interested in pursuing the Papias MSS. Issue. I
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 29, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      John N. Lupia
      501 North Avenue B-1
      Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
      JLupia2@...


      To List members interested in pursuing the Papias MSS. Issue.

      I would like to preface this as having two parts. The First is addressed to
      Stephen C. Carlson, and the second to Larry J. Swain, in the order they were
      received.


      To Stephen C. Carlson:


      You have made some very well put and judicious remarks about the known
      existence of the mss. of Papias in the 13th cent. However, I would like to
      clarify one point, Schaff referred to Nismes, Belgium, and to Canterbury,
      England.

      I have further evidence that suggests known mss. appear to have existed into
      the late 16th cent. in Switzerland.

      Also there is evidence that suggests in the 17th cent first hand knowledge
      of mss. of Papias were known to the Bollandists who researched all extant
      material on him when compiling there lives of saints. This can be
      ascertained by reading their Latin texts in the volume containing the Life
      of Papias.

      There are many documents in library collections that have escaped being
      catalogued. The example I offered regarding Dr. Rothenberg's discovery of
      papers of Lord Elgin shows that this is an ongoing situation. There are
      many and various reasons, during different periods of time in the history of
      a collection that have caused papers, letters and mss. to have gone
      uncatalogued. In yet another example, Tischendorf 's discoveries in the
      19th cent. demonstrate this phenomenon exists in monastic collections.
      Moreover, it should be kept in mind that Poggio Bracciolini discovered a
      lost copy of Vitruvius in the 15th cent in a Swiss monastery. What mss. may
      exist in private collections is another question that is impossible to
      assess.

      Schaff's informed opinion made 112 years ago stated: "Although this work has
      disappeared for several centuries, it may possibly yet be recovered either
      in the original (Greek), or in a Syriac or Armenian version. " In my mind,
      when Schaff says "this work has disappeared for several centuries," he was
      referring to what I have suggested above, the Bollandists working in the
      1680's.

      As Schubart's very minuscule and fragmentary citation of Papias suggests a
      known ms. may have been available to him. That Schubart gives no citation
      suggests he was referring to an original copy in a German collection.
      Hence, it is possible that a copy of Papias was known to exist as recent as
      150 years ago.

      Since some suggestive evidence exists that mss. of Papias were available
      possibly as recent as 150 years ago it seems tenable that some still do
      exist. These are lost within larger library collections having, for one
      reason or another, escaped being catalogued. Just as it still would seem to
      be equally possible that some have become lost or obscured within a monastic
      or private collection. I would like to point out that two mss. of Leonardo
      da Vinci considered to have been lost were discovered in 1965 in Madrid in a
      very large library collection. No, they were not in any catalogue. It
      sometimes happened in the distant past that a small ms. was bound with
      another larger volume. The smaller one was usually placed at the end. This
      phenomenon would explain how a cataloger could have missed detecting the
      presence of the second end treatise and have catalogued the book under the
      front material's title and author. This happened long before MAC record
      format.

      I hope this information may be useful to anyone interested in this subject.



      To Larry J. Swain:

      >So perhaps in your previous posts you could kindly point out to me where
      >Schaff, Donaldson, Gallandi, and Pitra are 20th century catalogs, which was
      >my first question,

      I gave the complete bibliographic citations of these authors that clearly
      indicates that their works are not catalogs but scholarly monographs on
      Church history and ancient authors.

      >or where in your citation of Schaff he specifically names which Cotton
      >manuscript the copy of Papias is, because somewhere I missed it.  The
      >citation of the specific manuscript name was my second question.


      I gave the complete citation of Schaff twice. I asked you to carefully
      reread it because he does not cite the name of the 13th or 14th cent.
      Cottonian ms(s) Moreover, Schaff appears to assert that a Papias ms(s.)
      "is cited three times in the Catalogue of the Library of the Benedictine
      Monastery of Christ Church, Canterbury, contained in the Cottonian MS. of
      the thirteenth or fourteenth century."

      >My next set of statements are valid ones, for even the charred mss were
      sent >to the BL, there is a scholar currently working on some of the Otho
      mss that >were burned with the same processes that are being used to read
      the >Herculaneum

      I have no way of knowing which of the Cottonian material survived. My
      reading of Schaff is that one of the Cottonian MS of the thirteenth or
      fourteenth century is the Catalogue of the Library of the Benedictine
      Monastery of Christ Church, Canterbury that cites (a) Papias ms(s) three
      times. I can only assume Schaff was referring to Henry Eastry's (Henry de
      Estria's) catalogue (14 cent.) of Christ Church, Canterbury. I believe you
      will find that this is the reference you are looking for. This will only
      bear evidence to confirm Schaff's assertion.

      >You state that you have a 20 year bibliography on the issue of Papias and
      >catalog notices, have you checked those lists?  This would indeed help
      track
      >down the manuscript and verify that it was indeed in the Cotton collection.
       I
      >hope you'll pardon my incredulity that if a Papias manuscript existed


      To clarify this issue for you I said I have 20 other bibliographic
      references to useful catalogs. I've been working on this since 1976. If I
      knew where a copy of Papias' mss. could be found I would have found them
      myself and published them by now. Of course I pardon your incredulity. Not
      many biblical researchers have devoted as many years to this line of
      investigation as I have, nor are there many who also hold an MLS having
      spent some years of their tenure as faculty in rare books and special
      collections, or in library management either.

       >After that, my next set of questions with regard to Papias is to
      distinguish
      >between the Lexicographer of the 13th century and the Papias of the 2nd
      >century.

      First, the name Papias was very popular in antiquity as it was through the
      medieval period. It would be an enormous blunder and rather pointless to
      have have cited the 11th cent. Italian Lombard Papias, author of the very
      famous "Elementarium doctrinae erudimentum", don't you agree. The
      references I have provided are regarding our mid second century Phrygian
      bishop and author of the 5 Books of Explanations.

      >are we certain that references to a Papias mss in 14th century libraries
      (and >to no copies before that date) refer to Papias of the 2nd century, or
      to Papias >of the 13th, is there independent corroboration?

      I have already answered this above in my reply to Stephen C. Carlson.

      >So, sir, I would invite you to show me, since you ask that we read so
      carefully,
      >just where in your previous posts this information has been given, because
      >frankly I do not see it there.

      I am not of any royal British family so you need not refer to me as sir.
      Feel free to call me John, since I do wish to establish sincere genuine
      friendships and foster a positive open forum. As for the information being
      perceived as lacking, it is my hope that this posting will help clarify that
      issue. I also further hope that this posting will bring polemic to a close
      and friendship to commence.



      Peace in Christ,
      John
      <><






      _______________________________________________________
      Send a cool gift with your E-Card
      http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/



      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
    • L. J. Swain
      ... At St. Gall s? WOuld you be so kind as to provide the information? I m curious you see. ... I m afraid I developed a very different impression, but it
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 29, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        John Lupia wrote:

        > I would like to preface this as having two parts. The First is addressed to
        > Stephen C. Carlson, and the second to Larry J. Swain, in the order they were
        > received.
        >
        > To Stephen C. Carlson:
        >
        > I have further evidence that suggests known mss. appear to have existed into
        > the late 16th cent. in Switzerland.
        >

        At St. Gall's? WOuld you be so kind as to provide the information? I'm
        curious you see.

        >
        > Also there is evidence that suggests in the 17th cent first hand knowledge
        > of mss. of Papias were known to the Bollandists who researched all extant
        > material on him when compiling there lives of saints. This can be
        > ascertained by reading their Latin texts in the volume containing the Life
        > of Papias.
        >

        I'm afraid I developed a very different impression, but it has been sometime
        since I've looked at this text. Would you care to expand on your comments,
        perhaps citing the portion(s) of the text which indicate to you that the
        Bollandists had collected not only the Vita, but also the works of Papias?

        > As Schubart's very minuscule and fragmentary citation of Papias suggests a
        > known ms. may have been available to him. That Schubart gives no citation
        > suggests he was referring to an original copy in a German collection.
        > Hence, it is possible that a copy of Papias was known to exist as recent as
        > 150 years ago.
        >

        Which I find surprising, since Schliermacher, Zahn, and others from the last
        century discuss Papias, but seem to know nothing of a copy of his work; the
        problem of Papias' comments on the origins of the gospels certainly predates the
        nineteenth century and one would think that if a copy existed and was used by a
        scholar such as Schubart, that others would know about it. I'm not doubting
        your word, I'm just questioning the plausibility, though not the possibility, of
        the existance of a copy of Papias 150 years ago.

        >
        > I hope this information may be useful to anyone interested in this subject.
        >
        > To Larry J. Swain:
        >
        > >So perhaps in your previous posts you could kindly point out to me where
        > >Schaff, Donaldson, Gallandi, and Pitra are 20th century catalogs, which was
        > >my first question,
        >
        > I gave the complete bibliographic citations of these authors that clearly
        > indicates that their works are not catalogs but scholarly monographs on
        > Church history and ancient authors.
        >

        Which is precisely why I asked my original question. Schaff indicates he is
        dependent on Donaldson who in turn is dependent on Planta, who is cataloging in
        the 1790s a group of books arriving in the BM in 1751; thus by the time Schaff
        reports it it is third hand and nearly 150 years old. Which brings me back to
        my question, asked now a third time, to your knowledge are there any 20th
        century catalogues which list the item in question? Referring me back to your
        posts, as you have done previously, only goes in a circle. The discussion so far
        has gone as follows: a) you cited Schaff who refers to Donaldson b) I asked for
        information regarding 20th century catalogs, c) you refer me back to your posts
        d) I ask where in your previous post you discuss my question e) to be answered
        that the secondary works you refer to are not catalogues which brings us current
        to f: again, do you know of 20th century catalogs of the Cotton collection that
        refer to the item?

        >
        > >or where in your citation of Schaff he specifically names which Cotton
        > >manuscript the copy of Papias is, because somewhere I missed it.
        > The
        > >citation of the specific manuscript name was my second question.
        >
        > I gave the complete citation of Schaff twice. I asked you to carefully
        > reread it because he does not cite the name of the 13th or 14th cent.
        > Cottonian ms(s) Moreover, Schaff appears to assert that a Papias ms(s.)
        > "is cited three times in the Catalogue of the Library of the Benedictine
        > Monastery of Christ Church, Canterbury, contained in the Cottonian MS. of
        > the thirteenth or fourteenth century."

        Again, precisely my point. Schaff does not mention it. I asked you if you knew
        what it was. The proper response to the question would have been a Yes or a No,
        not referring me back to the citation that did not provide the information I
        asked for in the first place. In short, I read the citation carefully and noted
        the abscence of what you claimed there existed, and asked for more information
        only to be answered that I should read Schaff better which I had done to have
        you now point out what I noted in the first place, Schaff doesn't mention it,
        which prompted my original question. Once again around the circle....but you
        seem now to be saying that Schaff, referring to Donaldson is referring to the
        Cottonian mss which is a 13th c. catalogue of Christ Church, Canterbury's
        library, rather than, and I quote from your message, "The Cottonianus Codices
        that included the medieval copy (ies) of Papias might have been..." which
        indicates to me that originally you were saying that Schaff was referring to a
        Cotton mss. that was a copy of Papias.

        >
        > >My next set of statements are valid ones, for even the charred mss were
        > sent >to the BL, there is a scholar currently working on some of the Otho
        > mss that >were burned with the same processes that are being used to read
        > the >Herculaneum
        >
        > I have no way of knowing which of the Cottonian material survived.

        I do, which is why I'm attempting to see if you have further information that
        may help bring this text to light.

        > My reading of Schaff is that one of the Cottonian MS of the thirteenth or
        > fourteenth century is the Catalogue of the Library of the Benedictine
        > Monastery of Christ Church, Canterbury that cites (a) Papias ms(s) three
        > times. I can only assume Schaff was referring to Henry Eastry's (Henry de
        > Estria's) catalogue (14 cent.) of Christ Church, Canterbury. I believe you
        > will find that this is the reference you are looking for. This will only
        > bear evidence to confirm Schaff's assertion.
        >

        As I mentioned, this seems different than your statements of yesterday, but
        perhaps I misunderstood. I don't believe that Schaff had actually seen the mss,
        I think he was citing Donaldson. No matter, I've already been in touch with the
        BL manuscript people to see if the item is available on microfilm.

        >
        > >After that, my next set of questions with regard to Papias is to
        > distinguish between the Lexicographer of the 13th century and the Papias of
        > the 2nd
        > >century.
        >
        > First, the name Papias was very popular in antiquity as it was through the
        > medieval period. It would be an enormous blunder and rather pointless to
        > have have cited the 11th cent. Italian Lombard Papias, author of the very
        > famous "Elementarium doctrinae erudimentum", don't you agree.

        I would, except that I know of two early modern catalogs where precisely this
        mistake was made, hence the question. I rather doubt that my two examples are
        the only two that exist.

        > >So, sir, I
        > would invite you to show me, since you ask that we read so
        > carefully,
        > >just where in your previous posts this information has been given, because
        > >frankly I do not see it there.
        >
        > I am not of any royal British family so you need not refer to me as sir.
        > Feel free to call me John, since I do wish to establish sincere genuine
        > friendships and foster a positive open forum. As for the information being
        > perceived as lacking, it is my hope that this posting will help clarify that
        > issue. I also furthe
        > r hope that this posting will bring polemic to a close
        > and friendship to commence.
        >

        I wasn't aware of any polemic between us until your post that I received
        yesterday. And the issue is not a perceived lack, so much as questions I have
        that I put to you in the hopes of an exchange of information and ideas, only to
        be told that I should read your posts more carefully, a post you now must see
        did not contain the information I sought, which is why I asked the questions I
        did and still do. So a final question, have you seen or looked into the good
        prior's list of books for Christ Church, late 13th century?

        Larry Swain


        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... Neither Schaff nor Parker explicitly identified which Nismes/Nîmes they meant. I had assumed it was the French one, but you indicate that the Belgian one
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 30, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          At 01:15 AM 4/29/01 -0700, John Lupia wrote:
          >You have made some very well put and judicious remarks about the known
          >existence of the mss. of Papias in the 13th cent. However, I would like to
          >clarify one point, Schaff referred to Nismes, Belgium, and to Canterbury,
          >England.

          Neither Schaff nor Parker explicitly identified which Nismes/Nîmes
          they meant. I had assumed it was the French one, but you indicate
          that the Belgian one is intended. Is this more explicit in Pitra
          or Gallandi?

          >I have further evidence that suggests known mss. appear to have existed into
          >the late 16th cent. in Switzerland.

          Does this evidence comprise catalogs or quotations?

          >Also there is evidence that suggests in the 17th cent first hand knowledge
          >of mss. of Papias were known to the Bollandists who researched all extant
          >material on him when compiling there lives of saints. This can be
          >ascertained by reading their Latin texts in the volume containing the Life
          >of Papias.

          Thanks for the Bollandist tip. Their ACTA SANCTORUM are organized
          by the saints' feast days, which for Papias should be Feb. 22. I'm
          going to try to have a look at it to see how useful it is.

          >There are many documents in library collections that have escaped being
          >catalogued. The example I offered regarding Dr. Rothenberg's discovery of
          >papers of Lord Elgin shows that this is an ongoing situation. There are
          >many and various reasons, during different periods of time in the history of
          >a collection that have caused papers, letters and mss. to have gone
          >uncatalogued. In yet another example, Tischendorf 's discoveries in the
          >19th cent. demonstrate this phenomenon exists in monastic collections.
          >Moreover, it should be kept in mind that Poggio Bracciolini discovered a
          >lost copy of Vitruvius in the 15th cent in a Swiss monastery. What mss. may
          >exist in private collections is another question that is impossible to
          >assess.

          This all brings hope. The only problem is whether the keeper of
          the MSS valued them highly enough to prevent them from being lost
          due to rot, fire, neglect, etc. For example, Codex Sinaiticus was
          being burned for warmth when Tischendort discovered it.

          >Schaff's informed opinion made 112 years ago stated: "Although this work has
          >disappeared for several centuries, it may possibly yet be recovered either
          >in the original (Greek), or in a Syriac or Armenian version. " In my mind,
          >when Schaff says "this work has disappeared for several centuries," he was
          >referring to what I have suggested above, the Bollandists working in the
          >1680's.

          In the preface to his second edition, Schaff expressed the following
          hope: "In view of these discoveries we would not be surprised if the
          Exposition of the Lord’s Oracles by Papias, which was still in existence
          at Nismes in 1215, the Memorials of Hegesippus, and the whole Greek
          original of Irenaeus, which were recorded by a librarian as extant
          in the sixteenth century, should turn up in some old convent."

          He wrote that after Bryennios's sensational discoveries of the Didache
          in an old library. Are there any uncatalogued library's still out
          there like untapped veins of gold. Or has these ores already been
          fully mined, and the only realistic hope we have left involves
          cataloging errors, as you have suggest later in your message?

          >As Schubart's very minuscule and fragmentary citation of Papias suggests a
          >known ms. may have been available to him. That Schubart gives no citation
          >suggests he was referring to an original copy in a German collection.
          >Hence, it is possible that a copy of Papias was known to exist as recent as
          >150 years ago.

          I'd have to check that with other possible sources for it, including
          the Bollandists and medieval lives of St. Papias. Schubart's lack of
          citation here is frustrating; it could mean anything.

          >I hope this information may be useful to anyone interested in this subject.

          Thank you very much.

          Stephen Carlson
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
          "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... As Jeff Jackson helpfully pointed out, this is in error. This is more correct: For example, leaves of codex Frederico-Augustano were about to be used to
          Message 4 of 9 , May 3 10:06 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            At 08:32 AM 4/30/01 -0400, Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
            >For example, Codex Sinaiticus was
            >being burned for warmth when Tischendort discovered it.

            As Jeff Jackson helpfully pointed out, this is in error.

            This is more correct: "For example, leaves of codex
            Frederico-Augustano were about to be used to light an
            oven when Tischendorf discovered it (eventually leading
            to his amazing discovery of codex Sinaiticus, which
            assuredly would have been subjected to the same fate)."
            See the discussion in Metzger, TEXT OF NT, p. 43.

            Stephen Carlson
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
            Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • John Lupia
            I accidently wrote: Second, could you be so kind as to explain how 1000 minor agreements between Matthew and Mark When it should read: Second, could you be so
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 6, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              I accidently wrote:

              Second, could you be so kind as to explain how 1000 minor agreements between
              Matthew and Mark

              When it should read:


              Second, could you be so kind as to explain how 1000 minor agreements between
              Matthew and Luke that incontrovertibly demonstrate they were written when
              no Marcan Gospel existed have another explanation consistent with your
              incontrovertible evidence for Marcan priority.

              Cordially in Christ,
              John
              <><


              John N. Lupia
              501 North Avenue B-1
              Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
              JLupia2@...
              <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
              "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
              . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
              they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





              _______________________________________________________
              Send a cool gift with your E-Card
              http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/



              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • R. Steven Notley
              Just scanned my previously sent message and realized that there is an error in language that may lead to some confusion. In paragraph 4 line 3, I wrote:
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 7, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Just scanned my previously sent message and realized that there is an error in language that may lead to some confusion.

                In paragraph 4 line 3, I wrote:  "gezerah shevah—where the verbal link is not repeated"

                It should have read:  "gezerah shevah—although the verbal link is not repeated by Luke."

                Sorry,
                Steven

              • Ted Weeden
                To: Karel Hanhart and Listers, The initial sentence of my post-response, Thesis: Mark Used Cross Gospel. . ., to Karel s midrashic position on Mk. 15:46
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 28, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  To: Karel Hanhart and Listers,

                  The initial sentence of my post-response, "Thesis: Mark Used Cross Gospel. . .,"
                  to Karel's midrashic position on Mk. 15:46 should have read: "That Mark may have
                  had in mind Gen. 29: 2, 3; Isaiah 22:16; 33:16, is a suggestion worthy of
                  consideration." For some reason that first part of the sentence did not
                  survive my posting of it.

                  Ted Weeden


                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • Maluflen@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/28/2002 6:49:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, weedent@earthreach.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 28, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In a message dated 1/28/2002 6:49:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    weedent@... writes:

                    << The initial sentence of my post-response, "Thesis: Mark Used Cross Gospel.
                    . .,"
                    to Karel's midrashic position on Mk. 15:46 should have read: "That Mark may
                    have
                    had in mind Gen. 29: 2, 3; Isaiah 22:16; 33:16, is a suggestion worthy of
                    consideration." For some reason that first part of the sentence did not
                    survive my posting of it.>>

                    For some reason it did survive your posting to me. My previoius post from you
                    begins exactly as above.

                    Leonard Maluf

                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • Karel Hanhart
                    To: Ted Weeden Ted, I didnot read this correction and responded to the erroneous citation, at once. For, as I stated already, Gn 29,2.3. has a quite important
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 29, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      To: Ted Weeden

                      Ted, I didnot read this correction and responded to the erroneous citation, at once.
                      For, as I stated already, Gn 29,2.3. has a quite important function in the
                      midrash..

                      Ted Weeden wrote:

                      > To: Karel Hanhart and Listers,
                      >
                      > The initial sentence of my post-response, "Thesis: Mark Used Cross Gospel. . .,"
                      > to Karel's midrashic position on Mk. 15:46 should have read: "That Mark may have
                      > had in mind Gen. 29: 2, 3; Isaiah 22:16; 33:16, is a suggestion worthy of
                      > consideration." For some reason that first part of the sentence did not
                      > survive my posting of it.
                      >
                      > Ted Weeden
                      >
                      > Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      > List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...


                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.