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Re: Q on tape!

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  • James Trimm
    Wow he sounds confident that he knows what Q is. So how does he know that there were not Q sayings that Luke used but Mattew and Mark did not? How does he
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 8, 1998
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      Wow he sounds confident that he knows what Q is. So how does he know that
      there were not Q sayings that Luke used but Mattew and Mark did not?

      How does he know that a certain saying that appers in two or more gospels
      did not come from another source (for example the proto-narative).

      How do we know that the so called "Q" sayings did not come from several
      different documents?

      It seems a bit premature, with no evidence that there ever was a single "Q"
      document to start publishing it on tape.

      That is about like selling cold-fusion reactors.

      James Trimm

      At 12:26 PM 7/8/98 GMT, Mark Goodacre wrote:
      >Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost
      Gospel Q:
      >The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio
      version.
      >Here is what the blurb says:
      >
      > "These are the original words of Jesus, preserved and written by his
      > contemporaries. For the past 150 years, scholars around the world have
      > been rediscovering fragments of this lost Gospel. It is presented here
      for
      > the first time in its entirety. Features the original Sermon on the
      Mount,
      > The Beatitudes, and the Lord's Prayer, along with parables, aphorisms,
      and
      > Jesus' guidance for living a good and compassionate life."
      >
      >(From http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157453212X/002-0473316-9554627)
      >
      >This is an advance even on the blurb of the printed version of the book:
      >
      > "The Lost Gospel Q brings the reader closer to the historical figure of
      > Jesus than ever before. The sayings within this book represent the very
      > first gospel. Lost for two thousand years, it's a window into the
      world of
      > ancient Christianity. Here are the actual words of Jesus--the original
      > Sermon on the Mount, Lord's Prayer, and Beatitudes, as well as parables,
      > aphorisms, and guidance on living a simple and compassionate life."
      >
      >Mark
      >--------------------------------------
      >Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
      > Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham
      >
      >Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
      >World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
      > (Please note new address)
      >--------------------------------------
      >
      >Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
      >Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
      >Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      >
      >
      James Trimm
      ==============================================
      He who seeks will not cease until he finds,
      and having found he will be amazed,
      and having been amazed he will reign,
      and having reigned he will rest.
      - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews
      ==============================================
      The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism:
      http://www.nazarene.net
      ==============================================
      E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism;
      Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the
      New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at:
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      ==============================================
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    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      May I ask who it is who does the narration? Is it Borg himself. And how long does the tape last? Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 8, 1998
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        May I ask who it is who does the narration? Is it Borg himself. And how
        long does the tape last?

        Yours,

        Jeffrey Gibson
        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson
        7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
        Chicago, Illinois 60626
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Mark Goodacre
        ... I raised it in the same way that I raise any issue of bibliographic interest on the list -- because I thought people might be interested in it or benefit
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 8, 1998
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          Don Spencer wrote:

          > Certainly for Synoptic-L, the tape will not add to scholarly
          > understanding. Perhaps Mark might indicate why he thinks we
          > should take notice.

          I raised it in the same way that I raise any issue of bibliographic
          interest on the list -- because I thought people might be interested
          in it or benefit from it. For one thing, I recently interviewed a
          blind student for admission to our University and the experience made
          me much more sensitive to the question of resources for
          sight-impaired students. A professionally done audio tape of _The
          Lost Gospel_ will no doubt sound better than, say, Sterling
          Bjorndahl's internet version of the IQP Critical Text of Q. Internet
          material on the machine we have at the University here comes over in
          a Stephen Hawkins - type voice.

          It is not just the sight-impaired who benefit from such things,
          however. Don Spencer mentioned that he listens in the car and I
          sometimes listen to audio texts on a walkman when walking to and from
          work. Listening to a text performed often produces a different
          impression than reading the same text. I would agree with Don
          that the experience can be valuable.

          On the other hand, the way that the tape was advertised did concern
          me. The claims about "the original words of Jesus" and "now for the
          first time" etc. (quoting from memory) tend to be the kind of
          sensationalist talk that we could better do without, as Jim implies.

          Further, I share the concern that others express with taking Q as a
          "text" for granted without giving any hint of its hypothetical
          nature. But this has been the case for some considerable time now,
          and the release of an audio version is only another stage in the
          unstoppable progress of the juggernaut.

          All the best

          Mark
          -------------------------------------------
          Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
          Dept. of Theology, University of Birmingham
          Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre

          --------------------------------------------

          Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
          Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • David Hall
          It seems Tatian attempted a Gospel harmony. Parts of it survive in a manuscript donated to the church in Rome, Italy(Catholic) from the church in Alexandria,
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 8, 1998
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            It seems Tatian attempted a Gospel harmony. Parts of it survive in a
            manuscript donated to the church in Rome, Italy(Catholic) from the church in
            Alexandria, Egypt(Coptic). An Arabic manuscript containing some of
            Tatian's work and also excerpts form a Syrian commentary about the work are
            what remains of the Diatessaron the Gospel harmony by Tatian the disciple of
            Justin Martyr and his gospel harmony. This Q seems like a gospel harmony as
            no Q manuscript exists but rather the sources for the gospels were the
            apostles while they were alive(Polycarp). Various letters and notes must
            have existed yet each author collected from as many sources as were
            available and these were probably interviewed. I was fortunate enough to
            collect a copy of the Diatessaron after numerous editions and not 100%
            complete, but rather containing gaps of omission. I do not fully understand
            it yet, but it is from a Vatican manuscript donated by the patriarch of
            Alexandria in the 19th century.

            David Hall
            quentino@erols .com
            http://www.erols.com/quentino

            -----Original Message-----
            From: James Trimm <jstrimm@...>
            To: M.S.Goodacre@... <M.S.Goodacre@...>; Synoptic-L@...
            <Synoptic-L@...>
            Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 3:00 PM
            Subject: Re: Q on tape!


            >
            >Wow he sounds confident that he knows what Q is. So how does he know that
            >there were not Q sayings that Luke used but Mattew and Mark did not?
            >
            >How does he know that a certain saying that appers in two or more gospels
            >did not come from another source (for example the proto-narative).
            >
            >How do we know that the so called "Q" sayings did not come from several
            >different documents?
            >
            >It seems a bit premature, with no evidence that there ever was a single "Q"
            >document to start publishing it on tape.
            >
            >That is about like selling cold-fusion reactors.
            >
            >James Trimm
            >
            >At 12:26 PM 7/8/98 GMT, Mark Goodacre wrote:
            >>Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost
            >Gospel Q:
            >>The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio
            >version.
            >>Here is what the blurb says:
            >>
            >> "These are the original words of Jesus, preserved and written by his
            >> contemporaries. For the past 150 years, scholars around the world have
            >> been rediscovering fragments of this lost Gospel. It is presented here
            >for
            >> the first time in its entirety. Features the original Sermon on the
            >Mount,
            >> The Beatitudes, and the Lord's Prayer, along with parables, aphorisms,
            >and
            >> Jesus' guidance for living a good and compassionate life."
            >>
            >>(From
            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157453212X/002-0473316-9554627)
            >>
            >>This is an advance even on the blurb of the printed version of the book:
            >>
            >> "The Lost Gospel Q brings the reader closer to the historical figure
            of
            >> Jesus than ever before. The sayings within this book represent the
            very
            >> first gospel. Lost for two thousand years, it's a window into the
            >world of
            >> ancient Christianity. Here are the actual words of Jesus--the original
            >> Sermon on the Mount, Lord's Prayer, and Beatitudes, as well as
            parables,
            >> aphorisms, and guidance on living a simple and compassionate life."
            >>
            >>Mark
            >>--------------------------------------
            >>Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
            >> Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham
            >>
            >>Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
            >>World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
            >> (Please note new address)
            >>--------------------------------------
            >>
            >>Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            >>Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
            >>Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            >>
            >>
            >James Trimm
            >==============================================
            >He who seeks will not cease until he finds,
            >and having found he will be amazed,
            >and having been amazed he will reign,
            >and having reigned he will rest.
            > - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews
            >==============================================
            >The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism:
            >http://www.nazarene.net
            >==============================================
            >E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism;
            >Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the
            >New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at:
            >http://www.nazarene.net
            >==============================================
            >Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian
            >transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at:
            >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html
            >
          • James R. Covey
            ... What people don t seem to understand is that this is actually a *remix* tape. It s a project by DJ Q-Borg, also known as MixxMaster Markkus. He plundered
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 13, 1998
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              re missive of 08/07/98 10:47 PM signed -Mark Goodacre- :

              >A professionally done audio tape of _The
              >Lost Gospel_ will no doubt sound better than, say, Sterling
              >Bjorndahl's internet version of the IQP Critical Text of Q. Internet
              >material on the machine we have at the University here comes over in
              >a Stephen Hawkins - type voice.

              What people don't seem to understand is that this is
              actually a *remix* tape. It's a project by DJ Q-Borg,
              also known as MixxMaster Markkus. He plundered two
              mostly-forgotten albums (classics, really) by first-
              century progressive rock artists for whatever vocal
              snippets would go over with a mass audience, and
              then looped those voice samples over some apocalyptic
              sound-effects in order to get that layered "retro" feel.
              He even sampled some cool "Satan" references to provide
              an ear-catching little overture. It's sure to make
              for a hit single and will definitely appeal to dance-
              format radio in a way that all that *old* crap never would.

              James

              P.S. Now that "Thomas" remix, that's *really* a work of art.
              Hundreds of hours of deconstructive tape-splicing.
              I hear that's it's actually John Oswald doing another
              Plunderphonics project under an assumed name.

              -------------------------
              James R. Covey
              WWW Systems Developer
              Cochran Interactive Inc.
              http://www.cochran.com
              direct ph. # 902.422.8915
              office fax # 902.425.8659
              jrcovey@...
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