Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Q on tape!

Expand Messages
  • Jim West
    ... WOW!!!! Well, I must ask, since these are the original words of Jesus will the tape be in Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew? I am tempted to ask if it will be
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 8 5:14 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      At 12:26 PM 7/8/98 +0000, you wrote:
      >Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost Gospel Q:
      >The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio version.
      >Here is what the blurb says:
      >
      > "These are the original words of Jesus, preserved and written by his
      > contemporaries. For the past 150 years, scholars around the world have
      > been rediscovering fragments of this lost Gospel. It is presented here for
      > the first time in its entirety. Features the original Sermon on the Mount,
      > The Beatitudes, and the Lord's Prayer, along with parables, aphorisms, and
      > Jesus' guidance for living a good and compassionate life."

      WOW!!!! Well, I must ask, since these are "the original words of Jesus"
      will the tape be in Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew? I am tempted to ask if it
      will be Jesus speaking- but I won't. But I will ask- what's the "original
      sermon on the Mount" and why is it separated from the "beatitudes" and the
      Lord's prayer?

      And, finally, why has Jesus become a Buddhist who teaches "guidance for
      living a good and compassionate life"?

      This is, in my opinion, really unfortunate. Now poor Jesus is reduced to a
      hawker of morality. We are, it seems, getting even further from the
      historical Jesus than we have been since the days of Hase.


      Best,

      Jim

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Jim West, ThD
      Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
      Adjunct Professor of Bible,
      Quartz Hill School of Theology

      jwest@...
    • Mark Goodacre
      Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost Gospel Q: The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio version.
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 8 5:26 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost Gospel Q:
        The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio version.
        Here is what the blurb says:

        "These are the original words of Jesus, preserved and written by his
        contemporaries. For the past 150 years, scholars around the world have
        been rediscovering fragments of this lost Gospel. It is presented here for
        the first time in its entirety. Features the original Sermon on the Mount,
        The Beatitudes, and the Lord's Prayer, along with parables, aphorisms, and
        Jesus' guidance for living a good and compassionate life."

        (From http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157453212X/002-0473316-9554627)

        This is an advance even on the blurb of the printed version of the book:

        "The Lost Gospel Q brings the reader closer to the historical figure of
        Jesus than ever before. The sayings within this book represent the very
        first gospel. Lost for two thousand years, it's a window into the world of
        ancient Christianity. Here are the actual words of Jesus--the original
        Sermon on the Mount, Lord's Prayer, and Beatitudes, as well as parables,
        aphorisms, and guidance on living a simple and compassionate life."

        Mark
        --------------------------------------
        Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
        Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham

        Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
        World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
        (Please note new address)
        --------------------------------------

        Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
        Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Jim West
        ... Why? ... Oh believe me, my sarcasm was restrained! There is nothing worse, nothing worse, than scholarship appealing to the lowest common denominator.
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 8 9:39 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          At 12:15 PM 7/8/98 -0700, you wrote:
          >
          >Jim et al,
          >
          >I have the tape and it is a welcomed addition to my library. I listen to
          >it often as I travel in the car.

          Why?

          >
          >I think it unfortunate not that Borg has made the text of Q available to a
          >wider public audience but that scholars find it so easy to lapse into
          >unrestrained cynicism and sarcasm.

          Oh believe me, my sarcasm was restrained! There is nothing worse, nothing
          worse, than scholarship appealing to the lowest common denominator. Such
          scholarship is not worthy of the name. I have no problem with books
          published on Q, or anything else- but to pander to a public so lazy, so
          illiterate, so downright unwilling to open a book by providing it with a
          tape- awful!

          But anything for a buck, right?

          > Borg has, of course, noticed
          >similarities between the wisdom teachings of Jesus and that of the Buddha,
          >but why should publishing the text of Q mean Jesus is reduced in any way?

          But the text of Q isn't being published!! Its being recorded for folk too
          lazy to read it for themselves!

          > At the very least, such an idea should offend Buddhists. To notice
          >similarities in Q texts with other aphorisms in world sacred literature is
          >not to draw boundary lines around the historical Jesus but to open them
          >up.

          Yes, it opens the boundaries around the historical Jesus to such an extent
          that he becomes whatever the author wishes him to be. Thereby becoming
          nothing real at all. Opening boundaries is fine- unless one thereby falls
          into the morass of ignorance.

          > Personally, I'm for anything hawked in the public domain which
          >extends interest in the historical Jesus and releases us from the banal.
          >

          But it doesn't! It simply makes Jesus even more banal than he already is.
          It makes Jesus into something he never was- a white, middle class ethicist
          who spends his time in his car listening to motivational tapes. Could that
          be any further from the reality of the Historical Jesus?

          >Shalom,
          >
          >Don Spencer
          >dspencer@...
          >
          >"A high proportion of what I say is probably wrong...The only problem is
          >that I do not know which bits are wrong."
          >N. T. Wright

          Then, Tom, you should probably be a little more careful.

          Best,

          Jim

          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          Jim West, ThD
          Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
          Adjunct Professor of Bible,
          Quartz Hill School of Theology
          jwest@...
        • James Trimm
          Wow he sounds confident that he knows what Q is. So how does he know that there were not Q sayings that Luke used but Mattew and Mark did not? How does he
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 8 11:53 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Wow he sounds confident that he knows what Q is. So how does he know that
            there were not Q sayings that Luke used but Mattew and Mark did not?

            How does he know that a certain saying that appers in two or more gospels
            did not come from another source (for example the proto-narative).

            How do we know that the so called "Q" sayings did not come from several
            different documents?

            It seems a bit premature, with no evidence that there ever was a single "Q"
            document to start publishing it on tape.

            That is about like selling cold-fusion reactors.

            James Trimm

            At 12:26 PM 7/8/98 GMT, Mark Goodacre wrote:
            >Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost
            Gospel Q:
            >The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio
            version.
            >Here is what the blurb says:
            >
            > "These are the original words of Jesus, preserved and written by his
            > contemporaries. For the past 150 years, scholars around the world have
            > been rediscovering fragments of this lost Gospel. It is presented here
            for
            > the first time in its entirety. Features the original Sermon on the
            Mount,
            > The Beatitudes, and the Lord's Prayer, along with parables, aphorisms,
            and
            > Jesus' guidance for living a good and compassionate life."
            >
            >(From http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157453212X/002-0473316-9554627)
            >
            >This is an advance even on the blurb of the printed version of the book:
            >
            > "The Lost Gospel Q brings the reader closer to the historical figure of
            > Jesus than ever before. The sayings within this book represent the very
            > first gospel. Lost for two thousand years, it's a window into the
            world of
            > ancient Christianity. Here are the actual words of Jesus--the original
            > Sermon on the Mount, Lord's Prayer, and Beatitudes, as well as parables,
            > aphorisms, and guidance on living a simple and compassionate life."
            >
            >Mark
            >--------------------------------------
            >Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
            > Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham
            >
            >Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
            >World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
            > (Please note new address)
            >--------------------------------------
            >
            >Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            >Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
            >Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            >
            >
            James Trimm
            ==============================================
            He who seeks will not cease until he finds,
            and having found he will be amazed,
            and having been amazed he will reign,
            and having reigned he will rest.
            - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews
            ==============================================
            The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism:
            http://www.nazarene.net
            ==============================================
            E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism;
            Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the
            New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at:
            http://www.nazarene.net
            ==============================================
            Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian
            transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at:
            http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            May I ask who it is who does the narration? Is it Borg himself. And how long does the tape last? Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 8 12:14 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              May I ask who it is who does the narration? Is it Borg himself. And how
              long does the tape last?

              Yours,

              Jeffrey Gibson
              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson
              7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
              Chicago, Illinois 60626
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Don Spencer
              On Wednesday, July 08, 1998 5:15 AM, Jim West [SMTP:jwest@Highland.Net] ... to ... Jim et al, I have the tape and it is a welcomed addition to my library. I
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 8 12:15 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                On Wednesday, July 08, 1998 5:15 AM, Jim West [SMTP:jwest@...]
                wrote:
                >
                > WOW!!!! Well, I must ask, since these are "the original words of Jesus"
                > will the tape be in Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew? I am tempted to ask if
                > it
                > will be Jesus speaking- but I won't. But I will ask- what's the
                > "original
                > sermon on the Mount" and why is it separated from the "beatitudes" and
                > the
                > Lord's prayer?
                >
                > And, finally, why has Jesus become a Buddhist who teaches "guidance for
                > living a good and compassionate life"?
                >
                > This is, in my opinion, really unfortunate. Now poor Jesus is reduced
                to
                > a
                > hawker of morality. We are, it seems, getting even further from the
                > historical Jesus than we have been since the days of Hase.
                >

                Jim et al,

                I have the tape and it is a welcomed addition to my library. I listen to
                it often as I travel in the car.

                I think it unfortunate not that Borg has made the text of Q available to a
                wider public audience but that scholars find it so easy to lapse into
                unrestrained cynicism and sarcasm. Borg has, of course, noticed
                similarities between the wisdom teachings of Jesus and that of the Buddha,
                but why should publishing the text of Q mean Jesus is reduced in any way?
                At the very least, such an idea should offend Buddhists. To notice
                similarities in Q texts with other aphorisms in world sacred literature is
                not to draw boundary lines around the historical Jesus but to open them
                up. Personally, I'm for anything hawked in the public domain which
                extends interest in the historical Jesus and releases us from the banal.

                Shalom,

                Don Spencer
                dspencer@...

                "A high proportion of what I say is probably wrong...The only problem is
                that I do not know which bits are wrong."
                N. T. Wright
              • Don Spencer
                I wonder, Jim, if this issue has to do with scholarship or personal taste in media. There is no pretense that distributing the tape is an exercise in
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 8 12:58 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I wonder, Jim, if this issue has to do with scholarship or personal taste
                  in media. There is no pretense that distributing the tape is an exercise
                  in scholarship. It is an exercise in distribution! We can all have
                  preferences for which media work for us, but it is insulting to suggest
                  that listening to a tape while driving is ipso facto a exercise in
                  futility!

                  You ask why I listen to the tape. Two words -- it's interesting!
                  Exposure to the text, spoken or written, is refreshing. Outside the
                  narrative contexts of the intracanonical gospels the sayings are striking
                  and precipitate novel correlations and considerations. What, I ask, is
                  wrong with that?

                  You comment...
                  > to pander to a public so lazy, so
                  > illiterate, so downright unwilling to open a book by providing it with a
                  > tape- awful!

                  Why? How can you possibly judge the motivations of someone using the tape
                  as lazy, illiterate or whatever?

                  Certainly for Synoptic-L, the tape will not add to scholarly understand
                  ing. Perhaps Mark might indicate why he thinks we should take notice.

                  Shalom,

                  Don Spencer
                  dspencer@...

                  "A high proportion of what I say is probably wrong...The only problem is
                  that I do not know which bits are wrong."
                  N. T. Wright
                • Mark Goodacre
                  ... I raised it in the same way that I raise any issue of bibliographic interest on the list -- because I thought people might be interested in it or benefit
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 8 3:47 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Don Spencer wrote:

                    > Certainly for Synoptic-L, the tape will not add to scholarly
                    > understanding. Perhaps Mark might indicate why he thinks we
                    > should take notice.

                    I raised it in the same way that I raise any issue of bibliographic
                    interest on the list -- because I thought people might be interested
                    in it or benefit from it. For one thing, I recently interviewed a
                    blind student for admission to our University and the experience made
                    me much more sensitive to the question of resources for
                    sight-impaired students. A professionally done audio tape of _The
                    Lost Gospel_ will no doubt sound better than, say, Sterling
                    Bjorndahl's internet version of the IQP Critical Text of Q. Internet
                    material on the machine we have at the University here comes over in
                    a Stephen Hawkins - type voice.

                    It is not just the sight-impaired who benefit from such things,
                    however. Don Spencer mentioned that he listens in the car and I
                    sometimes listen to audio texts on a walkman when walking to and from
                    work. Listening to a text performed often produces a different
                    impression than reading the same text. I would agree with Don
                    that the experience can be valuable.

                    On the other hand, the way that the tape was advertised did concern
                    me. The claims about "the original words of Jesus" and "now for the
                    first time" etc. (quoting from memory) tend to be the kind of
                    sensationalist talk that we could better do without, as Jim implies.

                    Further, I share the concern that others express with taking Q as a
                    "text" for granted without giving any hint of its hypothetical
                    nature. But this has been the case for some considerable time now,
                    and the release of an audio version is only another stage in the
                    unstoppable progress of the juggernaut.

                    All the best

                    Mark
                    -------------------------------------------
                    Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
                    Dept. of Theology, University of Birmingham
                    Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre

                    --------------------------------------------

                    Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
                    Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • David Hall
                    It seems Tatian attempted a Gospel harmony. Parts of it survive in a manuscript donated to the church in Rome, Italy(Catholic) from the church in Alexandria,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 8 4:25 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      It seems Tatian attempted a Gospel harmony. Parts of it survive in a
                      manuscript donated to the church in Rome, Italy(Catholic) from the church in
                      Alexandria, Egypt(Coptic). An Arabic manuscript containing some of
                      Tatian's work and also excerpts form a Syrian commentary about the work are
                      what remains of the Diatessaron the Gospel harmony by Tatian the disciple of
                      Justin Martyr and his gospel harmony. This Q seems like a gospel harmony as
                      no Q manuscript exists but rather the sources for the gospels were the
                      apostles while they were alive(Polycarp). Various letters and notes must
                      have existed yet each author collected from as many sources as were
                      available and these were probably interviewed. I was fortunate enough to
                      collect a copy of the Diatessaron after numerous editions and not 100%
                      complete, but rather containing gaps of omission. I do not fully understand
                      it yet, but it is from a Vatican manuscript donated by the patriarch of
                      Alexandria in the 19th century.

                      David Hall
                      quentino@erols .com
                      http://www.erols.com/quentino

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: James Trimm <jstrimm@...>
                      To: M.S.Goodacre@... <M.S.Goodacre@...>; Synoptic-L@...
                      <Synoptic-L@...>
                      Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 3:00 PM
                      Subject: Re: Q on tape!


                      >
                      >Wow he sounds confident that he knows what Q is. So how does he know that
                      >there were not Q sayings that Luke used but Mattew and Mark did not?
                      >
                      >How does he know that a certain saying that appers in two or more gospels
                      >did not come from another source (for example the proto-narative).
                      >
                      >How do we know that the so called "Q" sayings did not come from several
                      >different documents?
                      >
                      >It seems a bit premature, with no evidence that there ever was a single "Q"
                      >document to start publishing it on tape.
                      >
                      >That is about like selling cold-fusion reactors.
                      >
                      >James Trimm
                      >
                      >At 12:26 PM 7/8/98 GMT, Mark Goodacre wrote:
                      >>Q will soon be available on audio tape. Marcus Borg (ed), _The Lost
                      >Gospel Q:
                      >>The Original Sayings of Jesus_ is shortly to be released in an audio
                      >version.
                      >>Here is what the blurb says:
                      >>
                      >> "These are the original words of Jesus, preserved and written by his
                      >> contemporaries. For the past 150 years, scholars around the world have
                      >> been rediscovering fragments of this lost Gospel. It is presented here
                      >for
                      >> the first time in its entirety. Features the original Sermon on the
                      >Mount,
                      >> The Beatitudes, and the Lord's Prayer, along with parables, aphorisms,
                      >and
                      >> Jesus' guidance for living a good and compassionate life."
                      >>
                      >>(From
                      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157453212X/002-0473316-9554627)
                      >>
                      >>This is an advance even on the blurb of the printed version of the book:
                      >>
                      >> "The Lost Gospel Q brings the reader closer to the historical figure
                      of
                      >> Jesus than ever before. The sayings within this book represent the
                      very
                      >> first gospel. Lost for two thousand years, it's a window into the
                      >world of
                      >> ancient Christianity. Here are the actual words of Jesus--the original
                      >> Sermon on the Mount, Lord's Prayer, and Beatitudes, as well as
                      parables,
                      >> aphorisms, and guidance on living a simple and compassionate life."
                      >>
                      >>Mark
                      >>--------------------------------------
                      >>Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
                      >> Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham
                      >>
                      >>Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                      >>World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
                      >> (Please note new address)
                      >>--------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >>Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      >>Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l
                      >>Synoptic-L Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                      >>
                      >>
                      >James Trimm
                      >==============================================
                      >He who seeks will not cease until he finds,
                      >and having found he will be amazed,
                      >and having been amazed he will reign,
                      >and having reigned he will rest.
                      > - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews
                      >==============================================
                      >The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism:
                      >http://www.nazarene.net
                      >==============================================
                      >E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism;
                      >Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the
                      >New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at:
                      >http://www.nazarene.net
                      >==============================================
                      >Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian
                      >transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at:
                      >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html
                      >
                    • James R. Covey
                      ... What people don t seem to understand is that this is actually a *remix* tape. It s a project by DJ Q-Borg, also known as MixxMaster Markkus. He plundered
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 13 7:49 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        re missive of 08/07/98 10:47 PM signed -Mark Goodacre- :

                        >A professionally done audio tape of _The
                        >Lost Gospel_ will no doubt sound better than, say, Sterling
                        >Bjorndahl's internet version of the IQP Critical Text of Q. Internet
                        >material on the machine we have at the University here comes over in
                        >a Stephen Hawkins - type voice.

                        What people don't seem to understand is that this is
                        actually a *remix* tape. It's a project by DJ Q-Borg,
                        also known as MixxMaster Markkus. He plundered two
                        mostly-forgotten albums (classics, really) by first-
                        century progressive rock artists for whatever vocal
                        snippets would go over with a mass audience, and
                        then looped those voice samples over some apocalyptic
                        sound-effects in order to get that layered "retro" feel.
                        He even sampled some cool "Satan" references to provide
                        an ear-catching little overture. It's sure to make
                        for a hit single and will definitely appeal to dance-
                        format radio in a way that all that *old* crap never would.

                        James

                        P.S. Now that "Thomas" remix, that's *really* a work of art.
                        Hundreds of hours of deconstructive tape-splicing.
                        I hear that's it's actually John Oswald doing another
                        Plunderphonics project under an assumed name.

                        -------------------------
                        James R. Covey
                        WWW Systems Developer
                        Cochran Interactive Inc.
                        http://www.cochran.com
                        direct ph. # 902.422.8915
                        office fax # 902.425.8659
                        jrcovey@...
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.