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Re: [Synoptic-L] Luke knew Matthew: Three versions

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  • Peter M. Head
    Thanks Mark for your helpful notes. Are there any interesting non-scientific commonalities among the British representatives of the Farrer-Goulder theory?
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 10 10:05 AM
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      Thanks Mark for your helpful notes. Are there any interesting
      non-scientific commonalities among the British representatives of the
      Farrer-Goulder theory? Oxford is one. Did they all go to the same school or
      something?
      I'm not meaning to ignore your comment by the way, it is just that Farrer
      theory is much less clear than Farrer-Goulder (which non-advocates have
      been using for a while). Should advocates be given automatic rights of
      self-identification?

      Re
      >The difficulty with treating the issue globally is that the Farrer
      >Theory is more closely related to the Two-Source Theory than it is
      >to the Griesbach Theory since both Two-Source and Farrer make
      >Marcan Priority foundational. Discussing Farrer alongside
      >Griesbach does tend to obscure the extent to which Marcan
      >Priority is foundational for the Farrer theory (cf. my "A Monopoly on
      >Marcan Priority? Fallacies at the Heart of Q").

      The alternative problem is that much of the evidence is somewhat similar.
      It is hard to imagine any discussion not being very repetitious. Anyway
      I'll worry about later.

      Pete


      Dr. Peter M. Head
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens
      Cambridge CB3 9BA
      Tel: 01223 566607
      Fax: 01223 566608
      email: pmh15@...



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    • Peter M. Head
      Thanks Leonard, that is worth pondering, although there is a bit more stuff in inter alia de Wette, Bleek, Davidson. There may be some more detail again in old
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 10 10:05 AM
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        Thanks Leonard, that is worth pondering, although there is a bit more stuff
        in inter alia de Wette, Bleek, Davidson. There may be some more detail
        again in old material from the T¨bingen school. By the way I find your
        confession re Griesbach somewhat surprising (although your sources are
        surely right at this point).

        Peter

        Dr. Peter M. Head
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge CB3 9BA
        Tel: 01223 566607
        Fax: 01223 566608
        email: pmh15@...



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      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... Yes. The Augustinians (Zahn, Jameson, Chapman, Butler, and Wenham in the 20th century). Although the Augustinians and Farrer theory Q skeptics disagree
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 10 2:56 PM
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          At 02:06 PM 4/10/01 +0100, Peter M. Head wrote:
          >There seem to be three different views among those who think that Luke knew
          >Matthew:
          >
          >a) Griesbach Hyp view: Lk used Mt as his major source (e.g. Old Griesbach
          >School, Farmer, Q Impasse)
          >b) Farrer-Goulder Hyp view: Lk used Mt as supplement to Mk, therefore
          >dispense with Q (e.g. Farrer, Goulder, Drury, Ropes, Enslin [I think some
          >Americans have held this view!], Goodacre)
          >c) 2SH view: Lk exhibits occasional knowledge of Mt, but primary sources
          >were Mk & Q (Gundry, later Holtzmann, Morganthaler).
          >
          >Some questions:
          >i) Have I missed anyone important?

          Yes. The Augustinians (Zahn, Jameson, Chapman, Butler, and Wenham in
          the 20th century). Although the Augustinians and Farrer theory Q
          skeptics disagree on Markan priority, their views on Luke's use of
          Matthew and Mark are compatible. (Though the Q skeptics, who hold
          to Markan priority without Q, have the better psychological argument
          for Luke's preference for Mark: Luke had known Mark for longer.)

          >ii) Does anyone know anything about E. Simon, Hat der dritte Evangelist den
          >kanonischen Matthäus benutzt (Bonn: C. Georgi, 1880)? Apparently influenced
          >Holtzmann, mentioned in Farmer, Synoptic Problem. Where does he fit into
          >the typology?

          All I know is what Hobbs explained. Simons was like your view
          (c), which has been termed the Three Source Hypothesis (Mark, Q,
          and Matthew). Holtzmann worked with Simons on this issue, which
          allowed Holtzmann to abandon Ur-Markus.

          >iii) If one was going to argue the opposite (i.e. Luke's independence from
          >Matthew) would it be fair to treat the issue globally, or would one need a
          >detailed critique of each of the three options?

          I would argue them separately. They are different and raise different
          kinds of issues.

          Stephen Carlson
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
          "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

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        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... If by treatise you are referring to his Commentatio qua Marci Evangelium totum e Matthaei et Lucae commentariis decerptum esse monstratur, then you are
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 10 3:01 PM
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            At 10:38 AM 4/10/01 EDT, Maluflen@... wrote:
            >I have not personally read through the whole of
            >Griesbach's own treatise, but I have read in informed sources that he barely
            >mentions Luke's knowledge and use of Matt. The entire treatise is focused on
            >arguing that Mark's Gospel is best understood as a conflation of Matt and
            >Luke.

            If by "treatise" you are referring to his Commentatio qua Marci
            Evangelium totum e Matthaei et Lucae commentariis decerptum esse
            monstratur, then you are right, except that I couldn't find
            anything in it at all that refers to Luke's use of Matthew. Bo
            Reicke claimed that in another work, Inquisitio in fontes, unde
            Evangelistae suas de resurrectione Domini narrationes hauserint
            (1783), Greisbach did assert that Luke used Matthew.

            Stephen Carlson
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
            Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

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          • Mark Goodacre
            ... I think Oxford is one -- Farrer taught Goulder there in the 1950s and John Muddiman in the 1960s. Franklin was at St Stephen s House and was my tutor in
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 10 3:17 PM
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              On 10 Apr 2001, at 18:05, Peter M. Head wrote:

              > Thanks Mark for your helpful notes. Are there any interesting
              > non-scientific commonalities among the British representatives of the
              > Farrer-Goulder theory? Oxford is one. Did they all go to the same
              > school or something?

              I think Oxford is one -- Farrer taught Goulder there in the 1950s and
              John Muddiman in the 1960s. Franklin was at St Stephen's House
              and was my tutor in the 1980s; Muddiman was my doctoral
              supervisor in the 1990s. John Drury was chaplain of Exeter
              College (which, as it happens, was my college too) in the 1970s,
              across the road from Trinity where Goulder was giving his
              Speakers' Lectures published as _Midrash and Lection in
              Matthew_ in 1974 (cf. the preface to Drury's 1976 _Tradition and
              Design in Luke's Gospel_). E. P. Sanders was Dean Ireland
              professor at Oxford in the 1980s, and it was while there that he
              published (with Margaret Davies) his most Farrer-friendly piece,
              _Studying the Synoptic Gospels_ (1989). I can't fit Benedict Green
              in here. I wonder if he was taught by Farrer too? I'll have to ask
              him.

              No, I don't think the same school comes into it. They are all posh
              (e.g. Goulder went to Eton) whereas I was just an ordinary bod who
              went to the local comprehensive school in the East Midlands.

              There's a minor Birmingham link too. Goulder has spent most of
              his academic career in the University of Birmingham until his
              retirement in 1994. Farrer was a Cadbury lecturer here in 1953-4
              (and the book is _St Matthew and St Mark_). Margaret Davies was
              an undergraduate here in the late '50s, early '60s. I've been here
              since 1995 for my short career so far. Ed Sanders was the
              Cadbury lecturer here last year!

              However, there are now those who have no link with any of this who
              are becoming Q sceptics simply because they are looking carefully
              at the evidence : )

              > I'm not meaning to ignore your comment by the
              > way, it is just that Farrer theory is much less clear than
              > Farrer-Goulder (which non-advocates have been using for a while).
              > Should advocates be given automatic rights of self-identification?

              No, but they should be given a hearing if the existing usage is in
              some way potentially misleading. There are several problems with
              the term "Farrer-Goulder": (1) it marginalises the contributions of
              key figures like John Drury and Eric Franklin; (2) it tacitly suggests
              that the theory of Marcan Priority + Luke's use of Matthew
              necessarily involves Goulder's take on it, including the implausible
              theory of no additional sources. Drury and Franklin each contribute
              something of key importance unrepresented by Goulder: Drury's
              stress on Luke as a literary artist picks up on Farrer's stress on
              the same and is a useful antidote to Goulder's fundamentally
              source- / redaction- critical approach. Franklin stresses Luke's
              critical attitude to Matthew alongside a rejection of Goulder's no-
              extra-sources view. If in spite of these considerations, one still
              thinks that "Farrer-Goulder" is the best description

              > The alternative problem is that much of the evidence is somewhat
              > similar. It is hard to imagine any discussion not being very
              > repetitious. Anyway I'll worry about later.

              Some of it is, but I suppose that my point was that the fundamental
              agreement between Farrer & Two-Source on Marcan Priority
              renders these rather different theses than Griesbach.

              Mark

              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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            • Mark Goodacre
              ... add then so be it , or finish the sentence how you see fit! Sorry for the error. Seriously, I have not heard a good defence of the term Farrer-Goulder
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 10 3:32 PM
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                On 10 Apr 2001, at 23:17, Mark Goodacre wrote:

                > If
                > in spite of these considerations, one still thinks that
                > "Farrer-Goulder" is the best description

                add "then so be it", or finish the sentence how you see fit! Sorry
                for the error. Seriously, I have not heard a good defence of the
                term "Farrer-Goulder" from those who use it and I would be
                interested to hear it.

                Mark
                -----------------------------
                Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                Birmingham B15 2TT
                United Kingdom

                http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                Homepage
                http://NTGateway.com
                The New Testament Gateway

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              • Maluflen@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/10/2001 1:06:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pmh15@cam.ac.uk writes:
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 10 5:53 PM
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                  In a message dated 4/10/2001 1:06:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  pmh15@... writes:

                  << Thanks Leonard, that is worth pondering, although there is a bit more stuff
                  in inter alia de Wette, Bleek, Davidson. There may be some more detail
                  again in old material from the T¨bingen school. By the way I find your
                  confession re Griesbach somewhat surprising (although your sources are
                  surely right at this point).>>

                  My thanks to Stephen Carlson for clearing up the business about Griesbach by
                  distinguishing between two of his major works that addressed the issue. It
                  might interest you to know, Peter, that my own strong adherence to the
                  Griesbach position is a result of work with the Greek texts of the Gospels,
                  not the result of having been pursuaded by the arguments of scholars. I am
                  probably considerably less literate in the writings of the so-called "Farmer
                  school" than is Stephen Carlson (and probably you) as well. To continue our
                  game of trivia in Synoptic source theories, I wonder if anyone on the list
                  (you, for instance) would be prepared to jump a century from Griesbach and
                  classify the position on the Synoptic Problem (and on the question of Luke's
                  knowledge and use of Matthew) of the great mid-19th century Erlangen scholar,
                  Franz Delitzsch? Hint: he did write on the topic, more or less explicitly.

                  Leonard Maluf

                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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                • Ron Price
                  ... Pete, I suggest the following: (1) The Temptation. Davies & Allison (_Matthew_, I, 350), refer to an article by Wilkens - Die Versuchung Jesu nach
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 11 1:09 AM
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                    Peter Head wrote:

                    > Would any of the advocates of the view that Luke knew Matthew like
                    > to suggest their best examples?

                    Pete,

                    I suggest the following:
                    (1) The Temptation. Davies & Allison (_Matthew_, I, 350), refer to an
                    article by Wilkens - "Die Versuchung Jesu nach Matthaus" NTS 28 (1982),
                    479-89, which argues for the Matthean version as largely redactional and
                    for Luke as dependent on Matthew here.
                    (2) John the Baptist's Inquiry
                    (3) The 'naming' and framing of the Sermon on the Plain, which looks
                    very much as if it was based on that of the Sermon on the Mount, for the
                    scenery was not in the sayings source.

                    Detailed arguments on the first two (amongst others) can be found on
                    my Web site.

                    Ron Price

                    Weston-on-Trent, Derby, UK

                    e-mail: ron.price@...

                    Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm


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                  • Peter M. Head
                    Thanks Mark, this is really helpful (and interesting). Peter ... Dr. Peter M. Head Tyndale House 36 Selwyn Gardens Cambridge CB3 9BA Tel: 01223 566607 Fax:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 11 7:01 AM
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                      Thanks Mark,

                      this is really helpful (and interesting).

                      Peter

                      >On 10 Apr 2001, at 18:05, Peter M. Head wrote:
                      >
                      >> Thanks Mark for your helpful notes. Are there any interesting
                      >> non-scientific commonalities among the British representatives of the
                      >> Farrer-Goulder theory? Oxford is one. Did they all go to the same
                      >> school or something?
                      >
                      >I think Oxford is one -- Farrer taught Goulder there in the 1950s and
                      >John Muddiman in the 1960s. Franklin was at St Stephen's House
                      >and was my tutor in the 1980s; Muddiman was my doctoral
                      >supervisor in the 1990s. John Drury was chaplain of Exeter
                      >College (which, as it happens, was my college too) in the 1970s,
                      >across the road from Trinity where Goulder was giving his
                      >Speakers' Lectures published as _Midrash and Lection in
                      >Matthew_ in 1974 (cf. the preface to Drury's 1976 _Tradition and
                      >Design in Luke's Gospel_). E. P. Sanders was Dean Ireland
                      >professor at Oxford in the 1980s, and it was while there that he
                      >published (with Margaret Davies) his most Farrer-friendly piece,
                      >_Studying the Synoptic Gospels_ (1989). I can't fit Benedict Green
                      >in here. I wonder if he was taught by Farrer too? I'll have to ask
                      >him.
                      >
                      >No, I don't think the same school comes into it. They are all posh
                      >(e.g. Goulder went to Eton) whereas I was just an ordinary bod who
                      >went to the local comprehensive school in the East Midlands.
                      >
                      >There's a minor Birmingham link too. Goulder has spent most of
                      >his academic career in the University of Birmingham until his
                      >retirement in 1994. Farrer was a Cadbury lecturer here in 1953-4
                      >(and the book is _St Matthew and St Mark_). Margaret Davies was
                      >an undergraduate here in the late '50s, early '60s. I've been here
                      >since 1995 for my short career so far. Ed Sanders was the
                      >Cadbury lecturer here last year!
                      >
                      >However, there are now those who have no link with any of this who
                      >are becoming Q sceptics simply because they are looking carefully
                      >at the evidence : )
                      >
                      >> I'm not meaning to ignore your comment by the
                      >> way, it is just that Farrer theory is much less clear than
                      >> Farrer-Goulder (which non-advocates have been using for a while).
                      >> Should advocates be given automatic rights of self-identification?
                      >
                      >No, but they should be given a hearing if the existing usage is in
                      >some way potentially misleading. There are several problems with
                      >the term "Farrer-Goulder": (1) it marginalises the contributions of
                      >key figures like John Drury and Eric Franklin; (2) it tacitly suggests
                      >that the theory of Marcan Priority + Luke's use of Matthew
                      >necessarily involves Goulder's take on it, including the implausible
                      >theory of no additional sources. Drury and Franklin each contribute
                      >something of key importance unrepresented by Goulder: Drury's
                      >stress on Luke as a literary artist picks up on Farrer's stress on
                      >the same and is a useful antidote to Goulder's fundamentally
                      >source- / redaction- critical approach. Franklin stresses Luke's
                      >critical attitude to Matthew alongside a rejection of Goulder's no-
                      >extra-sources view. If in spite of these considerations, one still
                      >thinks that "Farrer-Goulder" is the best description
                      >
                      >> The alternative problem is that much of the evidence is somewhat
                      >> similar. It is hard to imagine any discussion not being very
                      >> repetitious. Anyway I'll worry about later.
                      >
                      >Some of it is, but I suppose that my point was that the fundamental
                      >agreement between Farrer & Two-Source on Marcan Priority
                      >renders these rather different theses than Griesbach.
                      >
                      >Mark
                      >
                      >Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      >List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...

                      Dr. Peter M. Head
                      Tyndale House
                      36 Selwyn Gardens
                      Cambridge CB3 9BA
                      Tel: 01223 566607
                      Fax: 01223 566608
                      email: pmh15@...



                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                    • Jack Kilmon
                      ... From: Ron Price To: Synoptic-L Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:09 AM Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Luke
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 11 8:19 AM
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Ron Price" <ron.price@...>
                        To: "Synoptic-L" <Synoptic-L@...>
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 1:09 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Luke knew Matthew: Three versions


                        > Peter Head wrote:
                        >
                        > > Would any of the advocates of the view that Luke knew Matthew like
                        > > to suggest their best examples?
                        >
                        > Pete,
                        >
                        > I suggest the following:
                        > (1) The Temptation. Davies & Allison (_Matthew_, I, 350), refer to an
                        > article by Wilkens - "Die Versuchung Jesu nach Matthaus" NTS 28 (1982),
                        > 479-89, which argues for the Matthean version as largely redactional and
                        > for Luke as dependent on Matthew here.
                        > (2) John the Baptist's Inquiry
                        > (3) The 'naming' and framing of the Sermon on the Plain, which looks
                        > very much as if it was based on that of the Sermon on the Mount, for the
                        > scenery was not in the sayings source.

                        I find none of these arguments supporting Lukan use of Matthew. Luke's
                        use of more "primitive" forms of material found in Matthew; Luke's tendency
                        to use the Aramaic idiom accurately over Matthew's translational Greek
                        sources....all equals Mark > Luke > Matthew with Matthew using a
                        translational Greek "Q" and Luke having used an Aramaic document. It
                        is Luke's Aramaic Q that keeps me out of the "no Q" club. A fictional
                        document doesn't come in two languages.

                        Jack


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