Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

the Lukan context of the LP

Expand Messages
  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    List-Members I m beginning my probe into the Lukan context of the LP - which, you ll recall is in the interest of finding evidence that the LP is a prayer
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 2, 1998
    • 0 Attachment
      List-Members

      I'm beginning my probe into the Lukan context of the LP - which, you'll
      recall is in the interest of finding evidence that the LP is a prayer
      which is more concerned with keeping the disciples from apostasy than
      "praying down" the "end times". So I have several questions upon which
      I'd like feed back from anyone who'd care to reply and expecially from
      anyone who has been doing work on Luke (not my forte)

      1. What actually *is* the context of the LP in Luke? Having looked at
      Fitzmyer and a few other commentators, there seems to be a reasonable
      case that it is the first section of the so-called travel or central
      section of Luke's Gospel, i.e., Lk. 9:51-13:21 (with the tracel section
      itself being Lk. 9:51- 18:14. Does anyone, then, disagree that (a) this
      is a recognizabe section in GLuke and that (b) it is not the Lukan
      context of the LP?

      2. I am struck by the fact that the travel section (and therefore the
      first part of it) begins with the story of the disciples wanting Jesus
      to call upon God to destroy a hostile Samaritan villiage and ends with
      some parables of growth which seem to be saying that contrary to one's
      instinct one should trust that the type of Kingdom which Jesus sets in
      motion will in the end prove to be triumphant and consequently that no
      one should despise this kingdom's ethics. Assuming this is a correct
      reading of the intention of the parables in GLuke, it seems to me, then,
      that the section of GLuke in which the LP appears is bookended with
      material which deals with the theme of how much the disciples need to be
      taught and exhorted to the steer clear of apostasy. But is this so? And
      if it *is* so, can we take the themes of the bookends as programmatic
      for the material which appears between them? Furthermore, is there
      evidence that the material that Luke has placed between these bookends
      *does* presume that the disciples are on the verge of apostasy and *is*
      concerned with steering the disciples clear of this danger. In other
      words, what do list members think is the theme or concern of the section
      in GLuke in which the LP appears?

      All responses to these questions, as well as suggestions about important
      literature dealing with Lk. 9:51-13:21 (18:14), will be appreciated.

      Yours,

      Jeffrey Gibson

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson
      7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
      Chicago, Illinois 60626
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Mark Goodacre
      Jeffrey You might be interested in the following comments from Joel Green (_The Gospel of Luke_ (The New International Commentary on the New Testament; Grand
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 2, 1998
      • 0 Attachment
        Jeffrey

        You might be interested in the following comments from Joel Green
        (_The Gospel of Luke_ (The New International Commentary on the New
        Testament; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), pp. 397-8:

        "Although other narrative needs may be served by the Lukan account
        of the journey to Jerusalem, the final one that will occupy our
        attention here is one that has emerged only recently in the
        narrative but whose pedigree in the Third Gospel is more pervasive.
        This concerns *Jesus' "exodus"*, about which Jesus conversed with
        Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration scene (9.31) . . . Cases of
        intertextuality, we may recall, not only borrow from but also parody
        - that is, signal differences in the midst of similarities - earlier
        material in order to give a fresh meaning to current narration. In
        this case, Luke has built up a series of reminiscences, some
        linguistic and others conceptual, of Exodus material, but he has
        done so in a way that mimics the Deuteronomic portrayal of the
        Exodus journey as a series of speeches delivered by Moses to the
        people of God. These speeches call for faithfulness to the covenant
        or, in Lukan terms, for a people whose kinship with Jesus is marked
        by their hearing and doing the word of God. (8.21)."

        Of course 11.27-28 re-affirms the latter point, and is not the
        Martha and Mary story that comes just before the Lord's Prayer in
        Luke (10.38-42) also about "hearing the word of God and doing it",
        viz. true discipleship?

        All the best

        Mark
        -------------------------------------------
        Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
        Dept. of Theology, University of Birmingham

        Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
        World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
        (Please note new address)
      • Mark Goodacre
        I think that Jeffrey s suggestion that Luke is, broadly, dealing with discipleship and apostasy in this material is a good one. Before Luke 9.51, Luke has been
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 3, 1998
        • 0 Attachment
          I think that Jeffrey's suggestion that Luke is, broadly, dealing
          with discipleship and apostasy in this material is a good one.
          Before Luke 9.51, Luke has been careful to make clear what true
          discipleship involves. It is "hearing the word of God and doing it".
          Key texts here are:

          6.46-49: "Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does
          them, I will show you what he is like . . . " (at the conclusion
          of the Sermon on the Plain, addressed to his disciples (6.20) in
          the "hearing of the people", 7.1)

          8.21 "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of
          God and do it" (a redactional reworking of Mark 3.35, "doing the
          will of God")

          The Travel Narrative gets underway with the question of "would-be
          disciples" (9.57-62); seventy-two are then sent out on mission and
          again the hearing of the word of God, in the context of discipleship
          and apostasy, is key:

          10.16: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you
          rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

          The Good Samaritan + Mary and Martha complex seem further to have the
          Shema ("Hear O Israel, the Lord your God . . .") very much in the
          background. It is explicit in 10.25-28 and implicit in the Mary and
          Martha story which appear to be all about discipleship roles:

          10.39: ". . . Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to
          his teaching" (HKOUEN TON LOGON AUTOU).

          She is the one that is commended by Jesus as the true disciple
          (10.42).

          This story leads into the Lord's Prayer, which is Jeffrey's major
          concern, and its context in 11.1-13 appears to be the Fatherhood of
          God and sonship. The Friend at Midnight parable and the associated Q
          teaching (11.9-13) appears to concern God's faithfulness in the light
          of the requests made by his children.

          As always, teaching on true discipleship in the Travel Narrative is
          interleaved with matters of controversy over Jesus' ministry, as in
          11.14-26 in which Jesus is charged with casting out demons "by
          Beelzebul", while some seek signs. God's judgement has already come
          on opponents who are the antithesis of the earler models of
          discipleship like Martha.

          11.27-28 pronounces a blessing on the true disciple. We should not
          be surprised that the true disciple is conceived, in typical Lukan
          language, as the one who "hears the word of God and keeps it"
          (11.28). Meanwhile, there are those who will continue to seek for
          signs (11.29) but who do not repent when the word of God is preached
          (11.29-32). Once more, Luke is interleaving teaching on true
          discipleship with controversy about those who reject "the word".

          This is just a quick sketch of the way that I see the early chapters
          of the Travel Narrative working. I agree with Jeffrey's notion that
          the LP in Luke fits into a context broadly concerned with matters of
          discipleship (hearing the word of God) and apostasy (rejecting the
          word of God).

          Let me conclude by observing that just as the Sower Parable is key to
          the plot of Mark's Gospel (often realised, e.g. by Tolbert & Drury),
          so too it is key in the plot of Luke (less often realised). For Luke
          has, in his interpretation of the Sower Parable (8.11-15), the
          opening line "the seed is the Word of God" (redactional change to
          Mark on the assumption of MP). And then the different types of
          ground as those who "hear". Some are those who reject the word (the
          apostates). For the interpretation of the LP note especially:

          Luke 11.13: "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they
          hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root; they
          believe for a while and in the time of temptation (PEIRASMOS,
          again LukeR of Mark) fall away."

          Those, like Martha, who hear the word of God and do it are celebrated
          in the conclusion of the parable's interpretation (8.15).

          Mark

          --------------------------------------
          Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
          Dept of Theology Tel: 0121 414 7512
          University of Birmingham
          Birmingham B15 2TT
          United Kingdom

          Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
          World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q
          (Please note new address)
        • Lamerson, Sam
          Jeffery, I am currently writing my dissertation in the area of forgiveness in Matthew (obviously much more specific than that, but that will do for now) and am
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 6, 1998
          • 0 Attachment
            Jeffery,
            I am currently writing my dissertation in the area of
            forgiveness in Matthew (obviously much more specific than that, but that
            will do for now) and am doing some work on M's version of the LP. When
            you say that the prayer is not about "praying down the end times" would
            you then disagree with N.T. Wrights analysis of the eschatological and
            exilic elements of the prayer (thy kingdom come)? Much of my work has
            to do with the link between forgiveness and exile and I am convinced
            that Wright is correct in much of what he argues (or Steck before him).
            I do wonder how a first century Jew would have viewed the prayer and
            what he would have thought of several elements.

            Blessings

            Sam Lamerson
            Knox Seminary

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [SMTP:jgibson000@...]
            > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 1998 6:00 PM
            > To: Crosstalk
            > Cc: Synoptic-L; graphai
            > Subject: the Lukan context of the LP
            >
            > List-Members
            >
            > I'm beginning my probe into the Lukan context of the LP - which,
            > you'll
            > recall is in the interest of finding evidence that the LP is a prayer
            > which is more concerned with keeping the disciples from apostasy than
            > "praying down" the "end times". So I have several questions upon which
            > I'd like feed back from anyone who'd care to reply and expecially from
            > anyone who has been doing work on Luke (not my forte)
            >
            >
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Sam, Thanks for your message. Funny you should mention Wright. I have not yet read his _The Lord and His Prayer_ but I had just last night resolved to do
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 6, 1998
            • 0 Attachment
              Lamerson, Sam wrote:
              >
              > Jeffery,
              > I am currently writing my dissertation in the area of
              > forgiveness in Matthew (obviously much more specific than that, but that
              > will do for now) and am doing some work on M's version of the LP. When
              > you say that the prayer is not about "praying down the end times" would
              > you then disagree with N.T. Wrights analysis of the eschatological and
              > exilic elements of the prayer (thy kingdom come)? Much of my work has
              > to do with the link between forgiveness and exile and I am convinced
              > that Wright is correct in much of what he argues (or Steck before him).
              > I do wonder how a first century Jew would have viewed the prayer and
              > what he would have thought of several elements.
              >

              Sam,

              Thanks for your message. Funny you should mention Wright. I have not yet
              read his _The Lord and His Prayer_ but I had just last night resolved to
              do so today! So as to whether I disagree with him I cannot as yet say.
              However, Tom and I were both students of G.B. Caird, so I am enormously
              sympathetic to Tom's view of the eschatology of Jesus as set out in
              _Jesus and the Victory of God_, a view which owes much to Caird's own
              work on eschatology and the historical Jesus. So I can't imagine he and
              I are too far off from one another, at least in the idea that if any
              eschatology pervades the LP it is one which sees the BASILELIA as having
              already dawned. It is this sense of KAIROS - that is, a sense that
              Israel is even now being visited by God and how it responds in the light
              of this will determine it's fate - that stands behind the LP.

              Now as to the meaning of the petition "let your Kingdom come": you
              should note that I carried on some discussion of this point on crosstalk
              and Synoptic-L back in February of this year. But in case you cannot
              access the archives to these lists, I'm appending as an attachment, the
              posting I sent in which I first mooted my musings on this matter. Feel
              free to respond to it.

              Also, I should very much like to see (as I'm sure others on the lists
              above would too) what you have to say about the forgiveness petition in
              the LP as well as what the additional teaching on forgiveness which
              Matthew attaches to the LP does to the meaning of the LP as a whole.

              Yours,

              Jeffrey Gibson


              P.S. plase ignore the fact that the attachment is labeled "bebop". I had
              to name it something, and bebop was the first thing that came to mind.
              That's the influence of listening to a golden oldies station as I write!

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson
              7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A
              Chicago, Illinois 60626
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • Edgar Krentz
              Jeff, just a quick bibliographic not e. Do you know THE LORD S PRAYER, Supplementary Issue No. 2 to The Princeton Seminary Bulletin? It was published in 1992,
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 8, 1998
              • 0 Attachment
                Jeff, just a quick bibliographic not e.

                Do you know THE LORD'S PRAYER, Supplementary Issue No. 2 to The Princeton
                Seminary Bulletin? It was published in 1992, a report on the 1991 Frederick
                Neumann Symposium on the Theological Interpretation of Scripture.

                And then, one substantive comment. I find in Jesus' words both the
                conviction that the Kingdom was among them and that it still lies in the
                [immediate] future? You seem to regard that as impossible. Such enigmatic
                seeming contradictions arecharacteristic of his words.

                And it seems to me that is also true in 2 Isaiah. Comment?

                Peace, Ed Krentz


                *******************************************
                Edgar Krentz, Prof. of New Testament
                Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                1100 EAST 55TH STREET
                CHICAGO, IL 60615
                Tel: [773] 256-0752; (H) [773] 947-8105

                Reply to: ekrentz@... (office)
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.