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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: The Portrait of Peter in Mk and Mt

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/10/2001 8:22:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... In case this is what is here implied, I don t think there is much merit in viewing Matt
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 10, 2001
      In a message dated 1/10/2001 8:22:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      M.S.Goodacre@... writes:


      Moreover, narrative-criticism encourages us not only to look at the goal of
      an
      individual section of text, avoiding undue obsession with source and
      redaction,
      but it also encourages us to look more broadly at the development of the
      overall
      narrative in the Gospel.  What is so interesting about Matthew 16.17-19 is
      that
      the commendation to Peter appears to be democratised later on, in Chapter
      18.
      Before getting rebuked by Jesus, Peter was told "Whatever you (sing) bind
      on
      earth will be bound in heaven . . .".  But now, post-rebuke, the reader
      finds that
      this special charge has been extended to all the disciples, "Whatever you
      (pl.)
      bind on earth will be bound in heaven" (18.18).



      In case this is what is here implied, I don't think there is much merit in
      viewing Matt 18:18, even in narrative-critical terms, as somehow a punishment
      of Peter for the dullness he exhibited in 16:22f. Perhaps this is just my
      instinctively "Catholic" reading, but chapter 16:18ff seems to speak of an
      authority over the church given to Peter alone among his brothers, which is
      never thereafter revoked by Jesus -- and significantly not in the immediate
      aftermath of 16:22ff. Chapter 18 is talking about a different, but analogous
      authority resident in the apostolic college as a whole, to use a somewhat
      anachronistic expression. One should probably not take this text as applying
      to all "disciples of Jesus" generically, since in Matthew the expression "the
      disciples" (hOI MAQHTAI [AUTOU]) always refers to some or all of the Twelve
      (and see 18:1). In Acts, Luke shows BOTH Peter acting with unique authority
      and initiative within the a! postolic college AND the apostles as a group
      acting as authoritative teachers and rulers of a renewed Israel. I believe
      Luke has properly understood Matt here. I think it is an overinterpretation
      of Matt 18:18 to see it as in any way abrogating the unique authority given
      to Peter in 16:18f. The keys of the kingdom of heaven given to him alone in
      this text are never subsequently taken away, and are in fact not bestowed at
      all on the other eleven even in chapter 18, where the latter are given the
      more limited authority, as a group, to formalize excommunication. The power
      to bind and loose given to Peter alone in chapter 16 also seems to have a
      broader reference-range, not limited by the context as in Matt 18, and
      probably alluding to general authority to interpret and apply specific Torah
      obligations.

      Leonard Maluf
    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... Thank you for your kind words, and apologies for not having responded sooner (most of my weekend was taken up on a book review). It appears that the brunt
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 10, 2001
        At 08:33 PM 1/4/01 -0600, Thomas A. Kopecek wrote:
        >Thank you, Stephen, for your careful statement of what you are trying to
        >accomplish. As for the rest of your present post, I'm beginning better to
        >understand the overall drift of your argument and find it ingenious. While
        >not yet convinced by your case, you've certainly gotten me to look at the
        >passages in new ways.
        >
        >On the other hand, I feel myself, like Peter, beginning to sink and wanting
        >to cry out, unlike Peter, Synoptic-Lers, save me. I've been a lurker on this
        >list, since professionally I read the gospels through the eyes of the
        >Fathers, and almost to a man they didn't see much negativity regarding the
        >Eleven in the Synoptics at all. So the debate in which I'm now engaged is
        >not my cup of tea--and a tempest in a teapot to boot.

        Thank you for your kind words, and apologies for not having responded
        sooner (most of my weekend was taken up on a book review). It appears
        that the brunt of my thesis is not so much what Mark is doing with
        Peter, but what Matthew is doing with Peter, and not finding Matthew
        as positive as one would assume.

        This particular point, though, is more of a side-issue on the topic
        I originally weighed in on, which is what tradition really tells us
        about the authorship of Mark and whether we can really believe that
        Peter is the source behind Mark's gospel. I offered a proposal that
        the earliest tradition merely asserts that someone who happened to
        have worked for Peter wrote Mark's gospel after Peter's death, and
        that the attribution of the contents of Mark's gospel to Peter was
        a natural inference to make in the later development of the tradition,
        but which was not orginally present.

        Now, Tom, you are much more used to analyzing tradition among the
        patristics, and I would appreciate your insights on the methodology
        of analyzing a tradition that spans the centuries. Does one move
        forwards or backwards through time? If so, how does one analyze
        the tradition at each stage? How do later forms of tradition
        inform our understandings of the earlier attestations of the
        tradition?

        Most of my interest has been in NT studies, where any analysis of
        the church's tradition is deprecated in favor of reading the texts
        to speak for themselves. As a result, I'm not sure I have the
        right methods to evaluate the various testimonies of the authorship
        of the Gospel according to Mark.

        Stephen Carlson
        --
        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
        Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
        "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Maluflen@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/10/2001 11:27:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, scarlson@mindspring.com writes:
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 11, 2001
          In a message dated 1/10/2001 11:27:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          scarlson@... writes:

          << This particular point, though, is more of a side-issue on the topic
          I originally weighed in on, which is what tradition really tells us
          about the authorship of Mark and whether we can really believe that
          Peter is the source behind Mark's gospel. I offered a proposal that
          the earliest tradition merely asserts that someone who happened to
          have worked for Peter wrote Mark's gospel after Peter's death, and
          that the attribution of the contents of Mark's gospel to Peter was
          a natural inference to make in the later development of the tradition,
          but which was not originally present. >>

          I just wanted to mention, Stephen, that I found fascinating your extended
          post on this topic dated Jan 1, 2001. I had never read the Papias testimony
          in the "minimalist" way you suggest, but it makes altogether good sense to do
          so. And I found very convincing your demonstration of how the tradition about
          Mark and Peter developed later on. As a corollary of this discussion, from a
          Griesbach perspective, I would note that the earliest tradition on the
          writing of Mark (Papias), interpreted in accordance with your understanding,
          conflicts less stridently with the demands of the 2 GH than do the later
          embellishments and interpretations of this tradition.

          Leonard Maluf

          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • Thomas A. Kopecek
          ... I understand, and, as you know, I ve responded recently to your approach on Crosstalk, where there seems to be somewhat more interest in the topic. ... I
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 11, 2001
            "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...> wrote:

            > Thank you for your kind words, and apologies for not having responded
            > sooner (most of my weekend was taken up on a book review). It appears
            > that the brunt of my thesis is not so much what Mark is doing with
            > Peter, but what Matthew is doing with Peter, and not finding Matthew
            > as positive as one would assume.

            I understand, and, as you know, I've responded recently to your approach on
            Crosstalk, where there seems to be somewhat more interest in the topic.

            >
            > This particular point, though, is more of a side-issue on the topic
            > I originally weighed in on, which is what tradition really tells us
            > about the authorship of Mark and whether we can really believe that
            > Peter is the source behind Mark's gospel. I offered a proposal that
            > the earliest tradition merely asserts that someone who happened to
            > have worked for Peter wrote Mark's gospel after Peter's death, and
            > that the attribution of the contents of Mark's gospel to Peter was
            > a natural inference to make in the later development of the tradition,
            > but which was not orginally present.
            >
            > Now, Tom, you are much more used to analyzing tradition among the
            > patristics, and I would appreciate your insights on the methodology
            > of analyzing a tradition that spans the centuries. Does one move
            > forwards or backwards through time? If so, how does one analyze
            > the tradition at each stage? How do later forms of tradition
            > inform our understandings of the earlier attestations of the
            > tradition?

            I personally do it exactly the same way you have done it. In fact, I teach
            my course on Christology and soteriology backwards. I start with the modern
            traditional orthodox perspective (including its roots in the 5th - 17th
            centuries) and challenges to it and only then move back into the Fathers of
            the second through the early fifth centuries and, finally, into the first
            100 years of Christianity. The only difference is that I rarely am
            interested in going all the way back to worry about the historical Jesus,
            the historical Peter, the historical Mark, the historical James, etc. Just
            as most Buddhists are content with the "legend" of the life of Gautama,
            which is religiously a very powerful story, so I normally am myself content
            with the general "picture" of the first 100 years of Christianity assumed by
            the Fathers. And I'm not using the term "legend" in any technical sense.

            But I *do* find myself very much at home with scholars like Richard
            Bauckham, who combine a solid grasp of the Patristic literature with NT
            sophistication. It may help you place my approach to know that my teacher's
            teacher was Robert M. Grant, and, indeed, all three of us were able to
            participate for a number of years in an on-going seminar in Patristics at
            the U of Chicago--before sickness made such participation impossible for me.
            The combination of NT scholarship and Patristic scholarship is something I
            wish I could combine in the way that Grant and my teacher, Bill Schoedel,
            have done.

            The reason I haven't responded to your analysis of the Patristic testimony
            regarding Mark and Peter is only that I've had some unexpected bureaucratic
            things on my plate, and the comments you made on the historical Mark and
            historical Peter are the kinds of things students often ask me about: they
            leave me in the uncomfortable position of having to respond to matters about
            which I don't know the literature and the arguments. Hence my giving
            priority to your side-issue. I hope others on Crosstalk pursue it.

            What I need to think more about in connection with your highly attractive
            reconstruction of the historical emergence of the Gospel of Mark is the
            attitude in general of the Fathers you cite to apostolic and New Testament
            authority. At first blush, all that you say makes very good sense as an
            analysis of the trajectory. I hope to find time to pursue it before Spring
            Semester starts up.

            Tom

            ___
            Thomas A. Kopecek
            Professor of Religion
            Central College, Pella, IA 50219
            kopecekt@...

            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • Stephen C. Carlson
            ... Thanks. I think one trouble for tradition-based approaches to the Synoptic Problem is that a strong of Mark to Peter conflicts with Mark s use of Matthew.
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 13, 2001
              At 06:06 AM 1/11/01 EST, Maluflen@... wrote:
              >I just wanted to mention, Stephen, that I found fascinating your extended
              >post on this topic dated Jan 1, 2001. I had never read the Papias testimony
              >in the "minimalist" way you suggest, but it makes altogether good sense to do
              >so. And I found very convincing your demonstration of how the tradition about
              >Mark and Peter developed later on. As a corollary of this discussion, from a
              >Griesbach perspective, I would note that the earliest tradition on the
              >writing of Mark (Papias), interpreted in accordance with your understanding,
              >conflicts less stridently with the demands of the 2 GH than do the later
              >embellishments and interpretations of this tradition.

              Thanks. I think one trouble for tradition-based approaches to the
              Synoptic Problem is that a strong of Mark to Peter conflicts with
              Mark's use of Matthew. Interestingly, the 2SH may be viewed as a
              solution to this bind, by taking Matthew=Q, of which Mark could be
              independent and hence more plausibly dependent on Peter. Of course,
              few supporters of the 2SH now connect Mark to Peter or Q to Matthew.

              Stephen Carlson
              --
              Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
              Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
              "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • Karel Hanhart
              ... Mt 16,16-18 The passage is important for the synoptic quest. For it offers a prime argument in support of Markan priority, if indeed Mark 15,46 is, - as C
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 19, 2001
                 

                Mark Goodacre wrote:

                I'd like to thank Stephen for his interesting comments on the portrait of Peter in
                Mark and Matthew and would like to add one thought of my own.

                I suspect that one of the reasons we tend to see the picture of Peter in
                Matthew as so much more positive than it actually is is the over-emphasis on
                redaction-criticism standard in most New Testament scholarship.  If we allow
                ourselves to leaven our source- / redaction-criticism a little with some insights
                from narrative-criticism (one of my hobby-horses, as some may know), we may
                end up with a more nuanced picture......Moreover, narrative-criticism encourages us not only to look at the goal of an individual section of text, avoiding undue obsession with source and redaction, but it also encourages us to look more broadly at the development of the overall  narrative in the Gospel.  What is so interesting about Matthew 16.17-19 is thatthe commendation to Peter appears to be democratised later on, in Chapter 18. Before getting rebuked by Jesus, Peter was told "Whatever you (sing) bind on earth will be bound in heaven . . .".  But now, post-rebuke, the reader finds that this special charge has been extended to all the disciples, "Whatever you (pl.) bind on earth will be bound in heaven" (18.18). I have to admit that I had not thought about this until Stephen brought up this interesting topic.  At first, I didn't think there was much in it, but on reflection I wonder if he is indeed putting his finger on something that over-obsession with redaction-criticism, in spite of its general usefulness as a tool, can all too easily obscure.

                Mt 16,16-18 The passage is important for the synoptic quest. For it offers a prime argument in support of Markan priority,  if indeed Mark 15,46 is, - as C Montefiore and Loisy suggested -, is a midrash on LXX Isa 22,16; 33,16 and if indeed Mark was deeply influenced by Paul (Joel Marcus).
                 Before demonstrateing this under C. I want to summarize some comments on the passage itself.
                1. The "keys of the kingdom" and "binding" and "loosing" refer to the same pericope in Isa 22, 15-25 (Isa 22,22).
                2. The word "ekklesia" is used only In Mt 16,18 and 18,17  in the synoptics; and as such the passage appears to be more a later insertion in an existing text than  part of the original composition. I agree with Goodacre, however, that we should not rely too much on source/redaction criticism alone. We should also not  weaken the impact of 18,6 by defining 18,17 as a democratization of 16,18, as Maluflen also insists.
                3, I would agree (with some reservations)  with the conclusion by Raymond Brown cum suis in "Peter in the New Testament" that Mark gives in 16,7 "implicit testimony to the tradition that.Peter had real importance for the church" (p.72) over against those who think Mk 16,7 refers to a parousia in Galilee Weeden). Mark is not anti-Petrine.
                 . .
                   B. I have worked out the ramifications of Montefiore's suggestion. In order to avoid parallellomania (S.Sandmel) assigning some gospel passage as a midrash to a partular text(s) in the Hebrew Bible, one should submit his/her exegesis to the rigorous test: "Did other synoptic authors show signs of having understood this new exegesis in the same way?"  To refresh one's memory::
                1 Mk 15,46. Gr. "en mnemoneioi ho en lelatomemenmon ek petras" refers to Isa 22,16. In both passages the monumental tomb is a euphemism for the temple to be destroyed. This is quite probable in the LXX version, but also true for the Hb Isa 22,16 as Rasji indicates re. the Jerusalem Talmud .
                    (I find it astonishing that various Bible editions ACKNOWLEDGE that Mark in  4,12; ,18;   9,48;11,10; 13,14; 13,19; 13,24; 14,18; 14,62 (!!); 15,24; 15,29; 15,33; 15,36 (some 13 x) is referring to a passage in Tenach without naming the biblical author but that Mark would NOT have done so in 15,46. Here Mark uses THREEwords in a similar war and the expression occurs only once in Tenach!.)
                2. In the narrative world the women receive - some 40 hours after Jesus expired - a vision of the future (Gr anablepsas, cf 6,41). The 40 HOURS in the narrative world between Jesus' death (15,33) and the vision (16,1.4) in this epilogue refer to the appr 40 YEARS after the crucifixion in the real world re. the complete destruction of the temple, including the Holy of Holies. Thus the angel says "Behold the PLACE " =  Behold the Maqom = the holy Place.
                The women therefore would see the monumental tomb during the ravaging of Jerusalem in their vision - they are frightened  - they flee - they tell no one..
                3. In Mk 15,43  Joseph (who "came from Ramah", the town where Rachel wept for her children). is depicted as a person hostile to the christian ecclesia and to Jesus. He was a member of the council that condemned Jesus (Schreiber). He broke the law, buying on a Sabbath.
                4. In all translations the coarse wordplay "some-ptoma" (Mk 15,43.45) has been softened by the
                words "Jesus' body" and "Jesus' dead body". The reason for this euphemism is obvious; we are dealing with the heart of the church's faith. However, the coarseness is essential for understanding the midrash.  As I see it, one should paraphrase as  follows: Joseph (that despicable person) had the guts to ask for Jesus "body", but :Pilate, a cruel Roman,  gave him only the corpse.
                5. It is the corpse that the women in vain sought to anoint. For Jesus himself will prove to have disappeared - he as the "head of his body" already sits "at the right hand of the Power" (14,62) and he is leading his own (the ecclesia as his body - Peter mentioned separately-) into the Galil ha-goym.
                Joseph wanted to imprison the "body" behind the door (of the Holy) and sealing the deed with a large stone. But his was a divinely frustrated burial.
                C. I believe in 16,16-18 Mt shows every sign of having understood the epilogue in this sense .
                        MARK 15,42-16,8                                            MATTHEW 16,17-20
                1. A play on the words  petras -Petros              A play on the words petrai-Petros
                    ( 15,46 - 6,7)                                                    (16,18)
                2. Mnemeion = monumental tomb = Temple      Oikodomeso - his ecclesia on the Rockman
                    under threat to be destroyed (15,46)
                3. A post-70 midrash on LXX Isa 22,16               A post-70 midrash establishinh Peter Peter
                    about a temple official (highpriest?) being           as foundation rock for the (judean) ecclesia
                   stripped of his function and 'whirled' into             in exile (16,18).
                   a wide land. Another taking his place.
                4. Joseph paralleled with Shebna losing his             Peter paralleled with Eljakim: Peter receiving
                    accroputements (presumably also the                  the keys of the Rule of Heaven to 'bind or
                    office of the key of David to 'open and                loose' (16,19)
                    'shut' (15,45)
                5. Joseph breaking the Sabbath on the eve              Whatever Peter 'looses' on earth will be
                    of an illicit first day of the harvest, Nisan               loosed in heaven.
                    16 (15,42.46), and vainly attempting to                (Prior to 70 the calendar festival the Boethusian
                     "bury" Jesus, rolling a stone before the                  date for the first day of the harvest was altered
                    monument, sealing off the entrance (thura)             from a Sunday to Nisan 16, as 'the first day')
                6. Jesus 'going ahead) of Peter into Galilee                 Peter receiving at Caesarea (!) Philippi in
                    (the Galilee of the nations) where he would           Gentile territory, a revelation from heaven
                    appear (opsesthe) to Peter and the others.           (apekalupsen) concerning the sonship of Jesus
                7. The promise of an appearance, namely, of             Jesus nuilding up his ecclesia.
                    his risen body.
                8. A brazen Arimathea demanding the "body"            Them'gates of hell' (code name for pagan
                    of Jesus, but receiving the "corpse" from the           Rome not prevailing ( 'gates' = city Joel
                    Roman governor after he had learned from            Marcus) against the 'ecclesia'
                    centurion that he had died ;long ago (palai)

                Conclusion. Matthew knew Mark. He inserted the 'keys' of Peter into Mark's story. In my view he
                understood Mark's Gospel, allegedly written under the authority of Peter. With this insertion he
                approved of Mark's rendition, including Peter's failings. But Matthew was more hesitant about Mark's bold assertions in a more Pauline sense (e.g. Mark 7, cf Mt 5 - 7, the Sermon on the Mount, thus correcting Mark.  At  any rate I believe Matthew was commenting on Mark's epilogue, thus meeting the rigiorous test mentioned above. Another passage is e.g. in John: "he spoke of the TEMPLE of his body" (2,21).

                Karel Hanhart     K.Hanhart@....

              • Karel Hanhart
                ... My apologies to Synoptic-L. In my previous scrambled message the parallels to Mark 15, 42 - 16,8 and Matthew 16,17-19 did not appear in a readable manner.
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 20, 2001
                  Mark Goodacre wrote:

                  > I'd like to thank Stephen for his interesting comments on the portrait of Peter in
                  > Mark and Matthew and would like to add one thought of my own.
                  >
                  > I suspect that one of the reasons we tend to see the picture of Peter in
                  > Matthew as so much more positive than it actually is is the over-emphasis on
                  > redaction-criticism standard in most New Testament scholarship. If we allow
                  > ourselves to leaven our source- / redaction-criticism a little with some insights
                  > from narrative-criticism (one of my hobby-horses, as some may know), we may
                  > end up with a more nuanced picture.
                  >

                  My apologies to Synoptic-L. In my previous scrambled message the parallels to Mark 15, 42
                  - 16,8 and Matthew 16,17-19 did not appear in a readable manner. Below I will not show the
                  parallels side by side in two parallel columns but one below the other.

                  Mt 16,17-19 is highly important for the synoptic quest. For it offers a prime
                  argument in support of Markan priority, if indeed Mark 15,46 is, - as C Montefiore and
                  Loisy suggested -, a midrash on LXX Isa 22,16; 33,16 and if indeed Mark was deeply
                  influenced by Paul (Joel Marcus).
                  Before demonstrating this under C. I want to summarize some comments on the passage
                  itself.
                  1. The "keys of the kingdom" and "binding" and "loosing" also refer to the same pericope
                  in Isa
                  22, 15-25 (Isa 22,22).
                  2. The word "ekklesia" is used only in Mt 16,18 and 18,17 in the synoptics; and as such
                  the passage appears to be more of a later insertion in an existing text than part of the
                  original composition. I agree with Goodacre, however, that we should not rely too much on
                  source/redaction criticism alone. We should also not weaken the impact of 18,6 by
                  defining 18,17 as 'a democratization' of 16,18, as Maluflen rightly insists.
                  3, I would agree (with some reservations) with the conclusion by Raymond Brown cum suis
                  in "Peter in the New Testament" that Mark gives in 16,7 "implicit testimony to the
                  tradition that.Peter had real importance for the church" (p.72) over against those who
                  think Mk 16,7 refers to a parousia in Galilee (Weeden). Mark is not anti-Petrine.
                  . .
                  B. I have worked out the ramifications of Montefiore's suggestion. In order to avoid
                  parallellomania - for instance, when designating a gospel message as midrash to a
                  particular text(s) of Scripture (S. Sandmel) - one should submit his/her exegesis to the
                  rigorous test: "Did
                  other synoptic authors show signs of having understood that passage in the sense of this
                  new midrashic exegesis? I believe Matthew 16,17-19 was composed with this understanding
                  of
                  Mark's ending.
                  To refresh one's memory::
                  1 Mk 15,46. Gr. "en mnemoneioi ho en lelatomemenmon ek petras" refers to Isa 22,16. In
                  both passages the monumental tomb is a euphemism for the temple to be destroyed. This is
                  quite probable in the LXX version, but also true for the Hb Isa 22,16 as Rasji indicates
                  in a note
                  on the Jerusalem Talmud .
                  (I find it astonishing that various Bible editions ACKNOWLEDGE that Mark in 4,12;
                  8,18; 9,48;11,10; 13,14; 13,19; 13,24; 14,18; 14,62 (!!); 15,24; 15,29; 15,33; 15,36
                  (some 13 x) is referring to a passage in Tenach without naming the biblical author but
                  that in these same editions NO reference is made to Isa 22,16 in a note on Mk15,46. But
                  Mark
                  cites THREE words that occur also in LXX Isa 22,16 and the expression about the
                  'monumental tomb' occurs here in Tenach!.
                  2. In the narrative world the women receive - some 40 hours after Jesus expired - a vision

                  of the future (Gr anablepsasai, cf 6,41). The 40 HOURS in the narrative world between
                  Jesus'
                  death (15,33) and the vision (16,1.4) in this epilogue refer to the appr 40 YEARS after
                  the crucifixion in the real world re. the complete destruction of the temple, including
                  the Holy of Holies. Thus the angel says "Behold the PLACE " = Behold the Maqom = the holy

                  Place. The women therefore would see in their vision the destruction of the Temple during
                  the ravaging of Jerusalem. They are frightened - they flee - they tell no one..
                  3. In Mk 15,43 Joseph (who "came from Ramah", the town where Rachel wept for her
                  children). is depicted as a person hostile to the christian ecclesia and to Jesus. He was
                  a member of the council that condemned Jesus (Schreiber). He broke the law, buying on a
                  Sabbath.
                  4. In all translations the coarse wordplay "soma-ptoma" (Mk 15,43.45) has been softened by

                  the words "Jesus' body" and "Jesus' dead body". The reason for this euphemism is obvious.
                  We
                  are dealing with the attempted burial and resurrection of Jesus, the heart of the church's
                  faith. However, the coarseness is essential for understanding the midrash. As I see it,
                  one should paraphrase as follows: Joseph: "that despicable person had the guts to ask for
                  Jesus "body", but :Pilate, a cruel Roman, gave him only the corpse.
                  5. It is the corpse that the women in vain sought to anoint. For Jesus himself will prove
                  to have disappeared - he as the "head of his body" already sits "at the right hand of the
                  Power" (14,62) and he is leading his own (the ecclesia as his body into the Galil ha-goym.
                  Peter is here mentioned separately, the last named person in the Gospel. Joseph wanted to
                  imprison the "body" behind the door (of the Holy) and sealing the deed with a large stone.
                  But his was a divinely frustrated burial.

                  C. In Mt 16,16-18, Matthew shows every sign of having understood Mark's epilogue in this
                  sense. This becomes clear if we compare eight key features in the two passages.

                  MARK 15,42-16,8
                  1. A play on the words petras -Petros ( 15,46 - 6,7)
                  2. Mnemeion = monumental tomb = Temple under threat to be destroyed (15,46)
                  3. A post-70 midrash on LXX Isa 22,16 about a temple official (highpriest?) being
                  stripped of his function and 'whirled' into a wide land. Another official taking his
                  place.
                  4. Joseph paralleled with Shebna losing his accroutements (presumably also the
                  'binding or loosing" function of the key of David to 'open and 'shut' (15,45)
                  5. Joseph breaking the Sabbath on the eve of an illicit first day of the harvest,
                  Nisan .
                  16 in a vain attempt to "bury" Jesus. For Jesus already sits at the "right hand of
                  power"
                  and on the first day of Shabuot, (the Pentecostal harvest according to Lv 23,11.15)
                  the women will receive their vision and the angelic message that he is going before
                  his own into the Galil of the Gentiles. Arimathea therefore was attempting to "bury"
                  Jesus
                  in vain as if by rolling a stone before the monument (=Temple) and thus sealing off
                  the entrance (thura) (to the Holies) as if he could prevent the events on
                  the true First Day of the
                  Messianic harvest. Jesus was the "aparche", the "first fruits" of those who fell asleep.
                  ( this item 5 is obscure for those who have not studied the calendar dispute re. the
                  first day
                  of the fifty days of the Pentecostal harvest ( Easter Sunday). This first day of the
                  festival calendar
                  according to the "Boethusians" always falls on a Sunday (Lv 23,11.15). This dating was
                  altered
                  some time prior to 70 CE to the fixed date of Nisan 16. The Pharisees adopted this new
                  date and it
                  still is the official first day of the harvest in the synagogue, at the beginning of the
                  so-called 'counting
                  of the omer'. In the year Jesus died Nisan 16 fell on the sabbath between the
                  crucifixion and the Sunday of the vision of the women}
                  6. Jesus 'going ahead of Peter and the disciples into Galilee (the Galilee of the nations)

                  where Jesus would appear (opsesthe) to Peter and the others.
                  7. The promise of seeing the risen one, namely, the ecclesia, as the risen body of Jesus.

                  8. A brazen Arimathea demanding the "body" of Jesus, but receiving the "corpse" from the
                  Roman governor after he had learned from the centurion that he had died ;long ago
                  (palai)

                  MATTHEW 16,17-19
                  1. A play on the words petrai-Petros (16,18)
                  2. Oikodomeso - Jesus will build (!) his ecclesia on the Rockman
                  3. A post-70 midrash establishing Peter as the foundation rock for the (judean)
                  ecclesia. in exile (16,18).
                  .4. Peter paralleled with Eljakim of Isa 22 - with Peter receiving the keys of the Rule
                  of Heaven to
                  'bind or loose' (Mt 16,19)
                  5. Whatever Peter 'looses' on earth 'will be loosed in heaven'. It refers to the
                  authority to expound
                  the Scriptures, including the disputed exegesis of the dating of the 'first day' in
                  Lv 23,11.15
                  6. Peter receiving at Caesarea (!) Philippi in Gentile territory, a revelation from
                  heaven
                  (apekalupsen) concerning the sonship of Jesus.
                  7. Jesus building up his ecclesia, as his 'risen body'.
                  8. The 'gates of hell' is a code name for pagan Rome. 'The gates' of a city are in
                  Scripture a pars pro toto for the city itself (Joel Marcus). Thus pagan Rome will not
                  prevail against the 'ecclesia'

                  My conclusion was that the famous passage of Peter and "the keys" may well prove to be an
                  important argument in favor of understanding Mark 42-16,8 in terms of a midrash on Isa
                  22,15-25. in light of the destruction of the Temple. Hence: Matthew knew Mark. He inserted
                  the 'keys' of Peter into Mark's story. In my view he adopted Mark's Gospel, allegedly
                  written under the authority of Peter . With this insertion he approved of Peter's
                  prominent position in Mark's epilogue, and repeated Peter's failings in 16,23. But Matthew
                  also corrected Mark He was more hesitant about Mark's bold assertions re. the Law in a
                  Pauline sense (e.g. in Mark 7, cf Mt 5 - 7, the Sermon on the Mount). At any rate,
                  Matthew was commenting on Mark's epilogue, thus meeting the rigiorous test mentioned
                  above. Another passage supporting this new approach to Mark's ending is John 2,21: "he
                  spoke of the TEMPLE of his body". John combined the notion of resurrection, body of Christ
                  with the Temple,
                  just as Mark and Matthew implied.

                  Karel Hanhart K.Hanhart@....




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                • Brian E. Wilson
                  Karel Hanhart writes -- ... Karel, It seems to me that you assume (with Montefiore and Loisy) that Mk 15.46 is a midrash on LXX Isa 22.16; 33.16. That is to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 23, 2001
                    Karel Hanhart writes --
                    >
                    >Mt 16,17-19 is highly important for the synoptic quest. For it offers a
                    >prime argument in support of Markan priority, if indeed Mark 15,46 is,
                    >- as C Montefiore and Loisy suggested -, a midrash on LXX Isa 22,16;
                    >33,16
                    >
                    Karel,
                    It seems to me that you assume (with Montefiore and Loisy) that
                    Mk 15.46 is a midrash on LXX Isa 22.16; 33.16. That is to say, you
                    assume that the writer of the gospel of Mark at Mk 15.46 created a
                    midrash on the LXX material stated.

                    In this case, the parallel material in Mt 27.39-40, which is in
                    significantly similar wording, cannot have been a midrash created by the
                    writer of the gospel of Matthew on the basis of the same LXX material.
                    For the material in Mt 27.39-60 has many similarities of wording with
                    the parallel Mk 15.46, and it is very unlikely that the two writers
                    should independently have chosen to create a midrash on the same LXX
                    material in such similar wording.

                    It follows that if Mark originated the material found in Mk 15.46 by
                    himself creating a midrash at this point, then the gospel of Mark must
                    be the documentary ancestor of the gospel of Matthew. For only so can
                    the existence of the similarly-worded parallel in Matthew be explained.

                    In other words, your assumption that the writer of the gospel of Mark
                    created a midrash on LXX material at Mk 15.46, together with the
                    similarity of wording between Mk 15.46 and Mt 27.39-40, implies Markan
                    priority.

                    The conclusion to your long and involved argument that Mark is prior to
                    Matthew is therefore entailed in the assumption with which you started.
                    The long argument is superfluous.

                    The question which arises, of course, is whether you can justify your
                    initial assumption that the writer of the gospel of Mark himself created
                    a midrash from LXX material to produce Mk 15.46. Why should not the
                    wording of Mk 15.46 have been taken by Mark from his source material?
                    Could this source material have been the gospel of Matthew, even?

                    I think it is impossible to argue validly for the priority of Mark on
                    the basis of supposing there is midrash in the gospel of Mark. Even if
                    there is such midrash in Mark, it may well have been originated by
                    someone other than the writer of the gospel of Mark himself.

                    Best wishes,
                    BRIAN WILSON

                    E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

                    Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                    > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                    > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                    _

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                  • Maluflen@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/23/2001 3:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk writes:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 23, 2001
                      In a message dated 1/23/2001 3:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                      brian@... writes:

                      << Why should not the
                      wording of Mk 15.46 have been taken by Mark from his source material?
                      Could this source material have been the gospel of Matthew, even?>>

                      Matt 16:18ff suggest that it very well could have been. It is most likely
                      that Matthew, who showed a midrashic interest in Is 22 LXX already in this
                      earlier chapter would likewise have been the one who invented, rather than
                      merely copied, the midrash on this same text in the burial scene. On the
                      other hand, it is not at all unlikely that Mark, like most subsequent readers
                      of Matt, was not sufficiently sophisticated to catch the allusion to the
                      Isaiah text in the burial scene midrash, and simply copied it, as though it
                      were a straightforward narrative, into his Gospel. Matthew is the "scribe
                      trained for the kingdom of heaven," not Mark. (I realize, Brian, that you are
                      more interested in a tertium quid position here, but I have written this
                      particularly for the edification of Karel.)

                      Leonard Maluf




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                    • Karel Hanhart
                      ... Agreed. ... Mark s epilogue (15,42 - 16,8 clearly is his own tightly knit composition as R. Pesch has convincingly shown. But Pesch didnot choose a Jewish
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 23, 2001
                        "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:

                        > Karel Hanhart writes --
                        > >
                        > >Mt 16,17-19 is highly important for the synoptic quest. For it offers a
                        > >prime argument in support of Markan priority, if indeed Mark 15,46 is,
                        > >- as C Montefiore and Loisy suggested -, a midrash on LXX Isa 22,16;
                        > >33,16
                        > >
                        > Karel,
                        > It seems to me that you assume (with Montefiore and Loisy) that
                        > Mk 15.46 is a midrash on LXX Isa 22.16; 33.16. That is to say, you
                        > assume that the writer of the gospel of Mark at Mk 15.46 created a
                        > midrash on the LXX material stated.
                        >
                        > In this case, the parallel material in Mt 27.39-40, which is in
                        > significantly similar wording, cannot have been a midrash created by the
                        > writer of the gospel of Matthew on the basis of the same LXX material.
                        > For the material in Mt 27.39-60 has many similarities of wording with
                        > the parallel Mk 15.46, and it is very unlikely that the two writers
                        > should independently have chosen to create a midrash on the same LXX
                        > material in such similar wording.
                        >
                        > It follows that if Mark originated the material found in Mk 15.46 by
                        > himself creating a midrash at this point, then the gospel of Mark must
                        > be the documentary ancestor of the gospel of Matthew. For only so can
                        > the existence of the similarly-worded parallel in Matthew be explained.
                        >
                        > In other words, your assumption that the writer of the gospel of Mark
                        > created a midrash on LXX material at Mk 15.46, together with the
                        > similarity of wording between Mk 15.46 and Mt 27.39-40, implies Markan
                        > priority.

                        Agreed.

                        > The conclusion to your long and involved argument that Mark is prior to
                        > Matthew is therefore entailed in the assumption with which you
                        > started....
                        > The question which arises, of course, is whether you can justify your
                        > initial assumption that the writer of the gospel of Mark himself created
                        > a midrash from LXX material to produce Mk 15.46. Why should not the
                        > wording of Mk 15.46 have been taken by Mark from his source material?

                        Mark's epilogue (15,42 - 16,8 clearly is his own tightly knit composition as
                        R. Pesch has convincingly shown. But Pesch didnot choose a Jewish approach
                        to unravel the riddle of Mark.
                        I believe John Mark was used to midrash and so was Matthew, both were first
                        century Jews. As I have argued all along Mark revised an earlier passover
                        haggadah written shortly after the destruction of the temple. In this case
                        his "source material" ccouldnot very well been other than LXX Isa 22,16
                        where the euphemism for the doomed temple occurs: a monumental grave hewn
                        from the rock..
                        A 'christian' source couldnot have existed very well for it would have to be
                        dated before 70, when the temple still stood.

                        kind regards,

                        Karel Hanhart K.Hanhart@...


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                      • Brian E. Wilson
                        Karel Hanhart writes -- ... Karel, How can anyone show that any section of the gospel of Mark was originated by the writer of the gospel of Mark? It is surely
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 24, 2001
                          Karel Hanhart writes --
                          >
                          >Mark's epilogue (15,42 - 16,8) clearly is his own tightly knit
                          >composition as R. Pesch has convincingly shown.
                          >
                          Karel,
                          How can anyone show that any section of the gospel of Mark was
                          originated by the writer of the gospel of Mark? It is surely possible
                          that what looks like such a section original to the writer of the gospel
                          of Mark may have been taken by him from his source material.

                          Even if Mk 15.24-16.8 is the tightly knit composition of one author,
                          that author was not necessarily the writer of the gospel of Mark.

                          It seems that Pesch's finding is not much help if we are trying to solve
                          the synoptic problem.

                          Best wishes,
                          BRIAN WILSON

                          E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

                          Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                          > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                          > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                          _

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                        • Mark Goodacre
                          I haven t got a copy of this book yet, but I was just looking at an RBL review of it by David Gowler and it seems to have an interesting essay pertinent to our
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 24, 2001
                            I haven't got a copy of this book yet, but I was just looking at an RBL review of
                            it by David Gowler and it seems to have an interesting essay pertinent to our
                            recent discussion on the characterisation of Peter in Matthew, not least the
                            issue of the role played by narrative-criticism in our analysis:

                            Kari Syreeni, “Peter as Character and Symbol in the Gospel of Matthew,”
                            in David Rhoads and Kari Syreeni, _Characterisation in the Gospels:
                            Reconceiving Narrative Criticism_ (JSNTSup, 184; Sheffield: Sheffield
                            Academic Press, 1999), pp. 106-152

                            Gowler's review is at:
                            http://www.bookreviews.org/Reviews/1841270040.html
                            He speaks highly of Syreeni's contribution and says:

                            > Syreeni argues that Peter is a many-sided character in Matthew, but
                            > that he also is a dubious symbol: “a figure of authority and
                            > legitimization, a pan-Christian paradigm of discipleship, yet also a
                            > partisan figure, a scandal to the expanding church of Christ” (pp.
                            > 148, 152).

                            I'm going to chase up this article and book. Has anyone else had a chance to
                            look at it?

                            Mark


                            --------------------------------------
                            Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@...
                            Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512
                            University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866
                            Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom

                            http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                            Homepage
                            http://www.ntgateway.com
                            The New Testament Gateway

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                          • Brian E. Wilson
                            Mark Goodacre writes -- ... Dear Mark, Yes. I have been looking at this. Syreeni writes lucidly, and is a joy to read. For me, the issue at stake is whether
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 25, 2001
                              Mark Goodacre writes --
                              >
                              >I haven't got a copy of this book yet, but I was just looking at an RBL
                              >review of it by David Gowler and it seems to have an interesting essay
                              >pertinent to our recent discussion on the characterisation of Peter in
                              >Matthew, not least the issue of the role played by narrative-criticism
                              >in our analysis:
                              >
                              >Kari Syreeni, "Peter as Character and Symbol in the Gospel of Matthew"
                              >in David Roads and Kari Syreeni, _ Characterisation in the Gospels:
                              >Reconceiving Narrative Criticism_ (JSNTSup, 184; Sheffield: Sheffield
                              >Academic Press, 1999), pp. 106-152
                              >
                              >Has anyone else had a chance to look at it?
                              >
                              Dear Mark,
                              Yes. I have been looking at this. Syreeni writes lucidly, and
                              is a joy to read.

                              For me, the "issue" at stake is whether narrative-criticism can be used
                              to help solve the synoptic problem. (I think this is at least part of
                              what you refer to as "the issue of the role played by narrative-
                              criticism in our analysis".) Syreeni actually considers this question
                              briefly. His blunt answer is that no, narrative-criticism cannot be used
                              to help solve the synoptic problem --

                              "Even the most rigorous analysis of the ways Peter is characterized in
                              Matthew's Gospel will not provide ready answers to questions concerning
                              Matthew's use and evaluation of previous traditions." (page 107)

                              Note that in this answer Syreeni is imnplicitly assuming the theory of
                              Markan Priority. Elsewhere he makes this assumption explicit --

                              "The text world of Matthew's Gospel has *intertextual* relations with
                              its predecessor, Mark's Gospel. The same holds true for symbolic and
                              real worlds respectively." (page 114)

                              " ... Matthew reproduces and develops the 'paper-ideology' of the Markan
                              character in order to make a better story ... Peter is made to represent
                              Matthew's own ideology through the use and development of the Markan
                              character." (page 118)

                              In his non-theological language, Syreeni notes the difficulty of
                              distinguishing between what we might refer to as "tradition" and
                              "redaction" in the theology of the writer of the Gospel of Matthew (for
                              "ideology" we may read "theology", for "authorial ideology" we may read
                              "the theology of the writer of the Gospel of Matthew", and for "text-
                              word ingredients" we may read "documentary source material")) --

                              "Not all ideological elements plainly indicate authorial ideology. Some
                              elements may be in literary use as text-word ingredients; other elements
                              may convey the authorial stance by way of contradiction or modification;
                              still other elements may reveal a genuine but optional use of a scheme;
                              and ultimately some elements reflect the author's firm ideology."

                              My view of the article is that Syreeni uses narrative-criticism to work
                              out the implications of having previously accepted the idea that Mark
                              was prior to Matthew. He is clear in his mind that you cannot use
                              narrative-criticism to try and determine whether Mark is prior to
                              Matthew. To me, therefore, the article is not going to be much use in
                              helping us solve the synoptic problem. Rather, it assumes that the
                              synoptic problem has already been solved in terms of the gospel of
                              Matthew being a documentary descendant of the gospel of Mark.

                              Best wishes,
                              BRIAN WILSON

                              E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

                              Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                              > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                              > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                              _

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