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Re: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/7/2000 5:57:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk writes:
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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      In a message dated 9/7/2000 5:57:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
      brian@... writes:

      << Kyle Dillon wrote --
      >
      >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
      >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
      >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
      >Jesus as a dove.
      >

      My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
      Jesus.

      If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
      anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?>>


      My copy of John is, of course, much like yours, and thanks for pointing this
      out. As for your final question, I would admit that the answer has to be
      "no", technically, but I would insist on pointing out that the condition that
      opens your question is "unreal". John was not in fact either written nor was
      it ever read without a knowledge of the Synoptics, and for this reason the
      baptism of Jesus is read into the account. It is the category of "witness" to
      the identity of Jesus (and to the identity of himself), not found formally in
      the Synoptics, that governs John's entire encounter with Jesus in Jn. Notice
      too that in 1:29 Jesus is seen "coming to" (pros) John, as only in Matt 3:13
      in the Synoptics. The words of JB at this point in Jn's narrative have the
      same effect as does the immediately following action of Jesus in Matt. The
      lamb of God takes away the sin of the world (by identifying with sinful
      humanity in his death). It is this same identification with sinful humanity,
      and symbolically with their death, that is evoked in Matthew's account by
      Jesus' being baptized alongside sinners. Which action (or passion) of course
      fulfills "all justice", the entirety of the divine plan for his Messiah. John
      the Baptist's protestation against Jesus' baptism in Matthew anticipates
      similar misunderstandings of Jesus' Messiahship, notably that of Peter in
      Matt 16. This is a major theological emphasis and point in Matthew's gospel.
      It is not an afterthought addition to an older story, a remedy for an
      embarrassing datum of history that could not be omitted altogether.

      Leonard Maluf
    • Yuri Kuchinsky
      ... Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in prison when Jesus is baptised). This seems to indicate that the final editors of
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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        ----------
        > From: Brian E. Wilson <brian@...>
        > To: Synoptic-L@...
        > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism
        > Date: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:52 AM
        >
        > Kyle Dillon wrote --
        > >
        > >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
        > >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
        > >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
        > >Jesus as a dove.
        > >
        >
        > My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
        > Jesus.
        >
        > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
        > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

        Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in
        prison when Jesus is baptised). This seems to indicate that the final
        editors of both Jn and Lk were rather uncomfortable with this idea.

        It stands to reason that the baptism of Jesus by JB was present in the
        source documents (or document) of both Jn and Lk, because, in both Jn and
        Lk, the omission appears as rather awkward.

        It is not clear that the analysis of the three Synoptic versions of this
        general scene can establish clearly which version is the most primitive,
        since the directionality of dependence here is not at all clear. It is
        possible that all four NT versions of this scene are based on some original
        proto-gospel source document.

        Regards,

        Yuri.

        Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

        Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy

        The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
        equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
      • Tim Reynolds
        ... No. tim
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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          "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:

          > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
          > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

          No.

          tim
        • Tim Reynolds
          ... I don t find a flashback at 2.21 awkward. He finishes up the John sequence and begins the Jesus sequence. ... Why a document? tim
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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            Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

            > Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in
            > prison when Jesus is baptised).

            I don't find a flashback at 2.21 awkward. He finishes up the John sequence
            and begins the Jesus sequence.

            > It is
            > possible that all four NT versions of this scene are based on some original
            > proto-gospel source document.
            >

            Why a document?

            tim
          • Tim Reynolds
            ... If the event elsewhere alleged indeed occured it would seem to have been between 1.27 and 1.29.
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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              Tim Reynolds wrote:

              > "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:
              >
              > > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
              > > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?
              >
              > No.
              >
              > tim

              If the event elsewhere alleged indeed occured it would seem to have been
              between 1.27 and 1.29.
            • Dennis Sullivan
              ... From: DARYL K. BOWENS To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean &
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 8, 2000
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: DARYL K. BOWENS <job14_14@...>
                To: <Synoptic-L@...>
                Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:19 PM
                Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism


                > What are some things to consider about these two accounts that should be
                > kept in mind? How can this apparent contradiction be explained?
                >

                One idea to consider, although I don't know what bearing it would have:
                GLuke indicates that Miryam, mother of Jesus, and Elisheva, mother of the
                Baptizer, were related.

                Regards,

                Dennis Sullivan
                Dayton, Ohio
                www.jerusalemperspective.com
                www.jerusalemschool.org
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