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Re: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism

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  • Tim Reynolds
    Let me rephrase. A story was being told back then involving the wellknown John, Jesus, a dove and a bat kol in a context of baptism. Matthew seems to have
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 6, 2000
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      Let me rephrase. A story was being told back then involving the wellknown John,
      Jesus, a dove and a bat kol in a context of baptism. Matthew seems to have
      added (or Mark and Luke removed, if you must) a bit of dialogue.

      tim
    • Brian E. Wilson
      Kyle Dillon wrote -- ... My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing Jesus. If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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        Kyle Dillon wrote --
        >
        >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
        >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
        >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
        >Jesus as a dove.
        >

        My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
        Jesus.

        If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
        anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

        Best wishes,
        BRIAN WILSON

        E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

        Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
        > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
        > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
        _
      • Maluflen@aol.com
        In a message dated 9/7/2000 5:57:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk writes:
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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          In a message dated 9/7/2000 5:57:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
          brian@... writes:

          << Kyle Dillon wrote --
          >
          >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
          >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
          >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
          >Jesus as a dove.
          >

          My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
          Jesus.

          If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
          anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?>>


          My copy of John is, of course, much like yours, and thanks for pointing this
          out. As for your final question, I would admit that the answer has to be
          "no", technically, but I would insist on pointing out that the condition that
          opens your question is "unreal". John was not in fact either written nor was
          it ever read without a knowledge of the Synoptics, and for this reason the
          baptism of Jesus is read into the account. It is the category of "witness" to
          the identity of Jesus (and to the identity of himself), not found formally in
          the Synoptics, that governs John's entire encounter with Jesus in Jn. Notice
          too that in 1:29 Jesus is seen "coming to" (pros) John, as only in Matt 3:13
          in the Synoptics. The words of JB at this point in Jn's narrative have the
          same effect as does the immediately following action of Jesus in Matt. The
          lamb of God takes away the sin of the world (by identifying with sinful
          humanity in his death). It is this same identification with sinful humanity,
          and symbolically with their death, that is evoked in Matthew's account by
          Jesus' being baptized alongside sinners. Which action (or passion) of course
          fulfills "all justice", the entirety of the divine plan for his Messiah. John
          the Baptist's protestation against Jesus' baptism in Matthew anticipates
          similar misunderstandings of Jesus' Messiahship, notably that of Peter in
          Matt 16. This is a major theological emphasis and point in Matthew's gospel.
          It is not an afterthought addition to an older story, a remedy for an
          embarrassing datum of history that could not be omitted altogether.

          Leonard Maluf
        • Yuri Kuchinsky
          ... Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in prison when Jesus is baptised). This seems to indicate that the final editors of
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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            ----------
            > From: Brian E. Wilson <brian@...>
            > To: Synoptic-L@...
            > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism
            > Date: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:52 AM
            >
            > Kyle Dillon wrote --
            > >
            > >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
            > >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
            > >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
            > >Jesus as a dove.
            > >
            >
            > My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
            > Jesus.
            >
            > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
            > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

            Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in
            prison when Jesus is baptised). This seems to indicate that the final
            editors of both Jn and Lk were rather uncomfortable with this idea.

            It stands to reason that the baptism of Jesus by JB was present in the
            source documents (or document) of both Jn and Lk, because, in both Jn and
            Lk, the omission appears as rather awkward.

            It is not clear that the analysis of the three Synoptic versions of this
            general scene can establish clearly which version is the most primitive,
            since the directionality of dependence here is not at all clear. It is
            possible that all four NT versions of this scene are based on some original
            proto-gospel source document.

            Regards,

            Yuri.

            Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

            Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy

            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
          • Tim Reynolds
            ... No. tim
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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              "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:

              > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
              > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

              No.

              tim
            • Tim Reynolds
              ... I don t find a flashback at 2.21 awkward. He finishes up the John sequence and begins the Jesus sequence. ... Why a document? tim
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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                Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

                > Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in
                > prison when Jesus is baptised).

                I don't find a flashback at 2.21 awkward. He finishes up the John sequence
                and begins the Jesus sequence.

                > It is
                > possible that all four NT versions of this scene are based on some original
                > proto-gospel source document.
                >

                Why a document?

                tim
              • Tim Reynolds
                ... If the event elsewhere alleged indeed occured it would seem to have been between 1.27 and 1.29.
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
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                  Tim Reynolds wrote:

                  > "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:
                  >
                  > > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
                  > > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?
                  >
                  > No.
                  >
                  > tim

                  If the event elsewhere alleged indeed occured it would seem to have been
                  between 1.27 and 1.29.
                • Dennis Sullivan
                  ... From: DARYL K. BOWENS To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean &
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 8, 2000
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: DARYL K. BOWENS <job14_14@...>
                    To: <Synoptic-L@...>
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:19 PM
                    Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism


                    > What are some things to consider about these two accounts that should be
                    > kept in mind? How can this apparent contradiction be explained?
                    >

                    One idea to consider, although I don't know what bearing it would have:
                    GLuke indicates that Miryam, mother of Jesus, and Elisheva, mother of the
                    Baptizer, were related.

                    Regards,

                    Dennis Sullivan
                    Dayton, Ohio
                    www.jerusalemperspective.com
                    www.jerusalemschool.org
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