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Re: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/6/2000 5:55:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, molad@earthlink.net writes:
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 6, 2000
      In a message dated 9/6/2000 5:55:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      molad@... writes:

      <<
      Kyle Dillon wrote:

      > But I think even more interesting than the discrepancy is the harmony of
      the
      > Gospel traditions. The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent
      > traditions yet both claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both
      > have John baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsquently descend on
      > Jesus as a dove.
      >

      Quite right. There's an event back there, and it involves a dove.>>

      I guess it's partly because I DON'T think the dove is "historical" that I
      find it difficult to believe that Matthew's and John's accounts are
      independent of each other. Has anyone here read Fritzleo Lentzen-Deis on the
      scene as "Deutevision" (if my memory serves me)? It should probably be
      remembered, too, that the scene of the baptism in Matthew takes place before
      the calling of the first disciples of Jesus and may therefore well be a
      continuation of the kind of (midrashic?) writing Matthew has been doing in
      his first two chapters. I think it is difficult to classify this as
      "history". I obviously do not think much of the argument, repeated ad nauseam
      in the literature, that no-one would have "invented" the story that seems to
      have caused "so much embarrassment" to the likes of Matthew. The view derives
      from a reading of the evidence based on Markan priority and participates in
      the evident fragility of this source view.

      Leonard Maluf
    • Tim Reynolds
      Let me rephrase. A story was being told back then involving the wellknown John, Jesus, a dove and a bat kol in a context of baptism. Matthew seems to have
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 6, 2000
        Let me rephrase. A story was being told back then involving the wellknown John,
        Jesus, a dove and a bat kol in a context of baptism. Matthew seems to have
        added (or Mark and Luke removed, if you must) a bit of dialogue.

        tim
      • Brian E. Wilson
        Kyle Dillon wrote -- ... My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing Jesus. If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
          Kyle Dillon wrote --
          >
          >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
          >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
          >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
          >Jesus as a dove.
          >

          My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
          Jesus.

          If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
          anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

          Best wishes,
          BRIAN WILSON

          E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

          Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
          > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
          > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
          _
        • Maluflen@aol.com
          In a message dated 9/7/2000 5:57:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk writes:
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
            In a message dated 9/7/2000 5:57:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            brian@... writes:

            << Kyle Dillon wrote --
            >
            >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
            >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
            >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
            >Jesus as a dove.
            >

            My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
            Jesus.

            If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
            anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?>>


            My copy of John is, of course, much like yours, and thanks for pointing this
            out. As for your final question, I would admit that the answer has to be
            "no", technically, but I would insist on pointing out that the condition that
            opens your question is "unreal". John was not in fact either written nor was
            it ever read without a knowledge of the Synoptics, and for this reason the
            baptism of Jesus is read into the account. It is the category of "witness" to
            the identity of Jesus (and to the identity of himself), not found formally in
            the Synoptics, that governs John's entire encounter with Jesus in Jn. Notice
            too that in 1:29 Jesus is seen "coming to" (pros) John, as only in Matt 3:13
            in the Synoptics. The words of JB at this point in Jn's narrative have the
            same effect as does the immediately following action of Jesus in Matt. The
            lamb of God takes away the sin of the world (by identifying with sinful
            humanity in his death). It is this same identification with sinful humanity,
            and symbolically with their death, that is evoked in Matthew's account by
            Jesus' being baptized alongside sinners. Which action (or passion) of course
            fulfills "all justice", the entirety of the divine plan for his Messiah. John
            the Baptist's protestation against Jesus' baptism in Matthew anticipates
            similar misunderstandings of Jesus' Messiahship, notably that of Peter in
            Matt 16. This is a major theological emphasis and point in Matthew's gospel.
            It is not an afterthought addition to an older story, a remedy for an
            embarrassing datum of history that could not be omitted altogether.

            Leonard Maluf
          • Yuri Kuchinsky
            ... Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in prison when Jesus is baptised). This seems to indicate that the final editors of
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
              ----------
              > From: Brian E. Wilson <brian@...>
              > To: Synoptic-L@...
              > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism
              > Date: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:52 AM
              >
              > Kyle Dillon wrote --
              > >
              > >The Synoptics and John, clearly from independent traditions yet both
              > >claiming to have derived from eyewitness accounts, both have John
              > >baptizing Jesus and have the Holy Spirit subsequently descend on
              > >Jesus as a dove.
              > >
              >
              > My copy of the Gospel of John lacks any description of John baptizing
              > Jesus.
              >
              > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
              > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

              Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in
              prison when Jesus is baptised). This seems to indicate that the final
              editors of both Jn and Lk were rather uncomfortable with this idea.

              It stands to reason that the baptism of Jesus by JB was present in the
              source documents (or document) of both Jn and Lk, because, in both Jn and
              Lk, the omission appears as rather awkward.

              It is not clear that the analysis of the three Synoptic versions of this
              general scene can establish clearly which version is the most primitive,
              since the directionality of dependence here is not at all clear. It is
              possible that all four NT versions of this scene are based on some original
              proto-gospel source document.

              Regards,

              Yuri.

              Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

              Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy

              The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
              equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
            • Tim Reynolds
              ... No. tim
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
                "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:

                > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
                > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?

                No.

                tim
              • Tim Reynolds
                ... I don t find a flashback at 2.21 awkward. He finishes up the John sequence and begins the Jesus sequence. ... Why a document? tim
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
                  Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

                  > Both Jn and Lk omit the baptism of Jesus by JB (in Lk, JB is already in
                  > prison when Jesus is baptised).

                  I don't find a flashback at 2.21 awkward. He finishes up the John sequence
                  and begins the Jesus sequence.

                  > It is
                  > possible that all four NT versions of this scene are based on some original
                  > proto-gospel source document.
                  >

                  Why a document?

                  tim
                • Tim Reynolds
                  ... If the event elsewhere alleged indeed occured it would seem to have been between 1.27 and 1.29.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 7, 2000
                    Tim Reynolds wrote:

                    > "Brian E. Wilson" wrote:
                    >
                    > > If we did not have the synoptic gospels, would it have occurred to
                    > > anyone reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was baptized?
                    >
                    > No.
                    >
                    > tim

                    If the event elsewhere alleged indeed occured it would seem to have been
                    between 1.27 and 1.29.
                  • Dennis Sullivan
                    ... From: DARYL K. BOWENS To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean &
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 8, 2000
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: DARYL K. BOWENS <job14_14@...>
                      To: <Synoptic-L@...>
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:19 PM
                      Subject: [Synoptic-L] Matthean & Johannine Account of Jesus' Baptism


                      > What are some things to consider about these two accounts that should be
                      > kept in mind? How can this apparent contradiction be explained?
                      >

                      One idea to consider, although I don't know what bearing it would have:
                      GLuke indicates that Miryam, mother of Jesus, and Elisheva, mother of the
                      Baptizer, were related.

                      Regards,

                      Dennis Sullivan
                      Dayton, Ohio
                      www.jerusalemperspective.com
                      www.jerusalemschool.org
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