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Re: Markan Priority: Argument from Length

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  • Stephen C. Carlson
    ... Yuri s point is a good one to extent that hypothetical documents such as Loisy s protoMk (is it any different from Ur-Markus?) are not often considered at
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 2, 1998
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      At 09:10 6/2/98 -0400, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
      >On the protoMk theory, many of the canonical Mk's passages are late
      >expansions. But these valid arguments are so often neglected. So often
      >commentators fall into the trap of assuming the "basic textual unity of NT
      >texts".

      Yuri's point is a good one to extent that hypothetical documents such
      as Loisy's protoMk (is it any different from Ur-Markus?) are not often
      considered at all when investigating the Triple Tradition. The most
      that happens is the consideration and subsequent dismissal of Ur-Markus
      as a possible explanation for the Minor Agreements. Failure to
      consider all possible explanations (and unfortunately there are many
      possible explanations) may prejudge the outcome. The only real
      difficulty I would have with an hypothetical document is a lack of any
      real controls that an attested text has.

      Stephen Carlson



      --
      Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations,
      scarlson@... : and songs chant the words.
      http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : -- Shujing 2.35
    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... Dan Wallace is expressly dependent on Robert H. Stein, whom I ve been discussing in detail. Thus, Wallace does not add much over Stein except he pays more
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 3, 1998
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        At 12:01 6/2/98 -0000, James R. Covey wrote:
        >re missive of 01/06/98 11:14 PM signed -Stephen C. Carlson- :
        >>My own view, being influenced by E.P.Sanders, THE TENDENCIES OF
        >>THE SYNOPTIC TRADITION (Cambridge: U. Press, SNTSMS 9, 1969), is
        >>that the arguments from length prove very little about the relative
        >>priority of the Synoptics.
        >
        >All right, you have my interest. I haven't read the Sanders text,
        >I admit. So perhaps you could set out a short synopsis of your
        >own -- a brief summary of his argument. I'd love to know what he
        >says. My own understanding of the argument from length is
        >a fairly standard one... I'll append Daniel Wallace's version
        >to the end of this email and perhaps you could skim it an comment
        >as to whether that is what Sanders means by the "argument from
        >length"? And perhaps mention briefly how he counters it?

        Dan Wallace is expressly dependent on Robert H. Stein, whom I've
        been discussing in detail. Thus, Wallace does not add much over
        Stein except he pays more attention to the Griesbach Hypothesis,
        for which see Longstaff's post.

        What Sanders did was that he actually looked at the evidence instead
        of relying on intuitive concerns. He proposed a variety of ways in
        which a text can be expanded or compressed (e.g. add/omit OT quotes,
        add/omit to/from speeches, add/omit speeches, add/omit dialogue,
        creation of new scenes, etc.). In other chapters, he did with detail
        (e.g. explicit subjects, objects, explanations, etc.) and with
        Semiticisms. Then he looked that the post-canonical Synoptic tradition
        (manuscript tradition, patristic quotations, and apocryphal gospels)
        and determined which of the phenomena is actually probative of
        secondary developments (not much). Finally, he examined how the
        synoptic gospels relate to one another under these criteria, and found
        that the indicators were largely contradictory. Therefore, his
        conclusion is mostly a negative conclusion, that the many of the
        standard proofs do not hold up.

        As for Streeter's argument that Mark cannot be an abbreviation because
        he expands the Triple Tradition, Sanders first denies the linkage
        between the two phenomena (p.85) because " Mark's 'purely verbal
        expansions' are in no way equivalent in bulk to Matthew's teaching
        material." Second, Sanders argues that Matthew did not compress
        Mark in order to add new teaching material, because Matthew is not
        consistently shorter than Mark (Luke is though), Matthew oftens adds
        narrative material, and in particular instances proposed examples of
        Matthew's abbreviation runs counter to his favortie themes: e.g., the
        worship of Jesus (Mk5:6) and the testimony of a healed man (Mk5:18-20).
        [p.86]

        In sum, for the category of length as an indicator for priority,
        Sanders concludes that it does not indicates Mark's priority to Matthew
        and that Mark's priority to Luke supportable if Luke is an abbreviator.
        [p.87]

        Stephen Carlson
        --
        Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations,
        scarlson@... : and songs chant the words.
        http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : -- Shujing 2.35
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... I m glad you agree with me on this, Stephen. Loisy s pMk hypothesis is actully very close to what Koester has been proposing for at least 20 years or so. I
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 5, 1998
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          On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
          > At 09:10 6/2/98 -0400, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

          > >On the protoMk theory, many of the canonical Mk's passages are late
          > >expansions. But these valid arguments are so often neglected. So often
          > >commentators fall into the trap of assuming the "basic textual unity of NT
          > >texts".
          >
          > Yuri's point is a good one to extent that hypothetical documents such as
          > Loisy's protoMk (is it any different from Ur-Markus?) are not often
          > considered at all when investigating the Triple Tradition.

          I'm glad you agree with me on this, Stephen.

          Loisy's pMk hypothesis is actully very close to what Koester has been
          proposing for at least 20 years or so. I have no idea to what extent if at
          all Koester is aware of Loisy's research.

          > The most that happens is the consideration and subsequent dismissal of
          > Ur-Markus as a possible explanation for the Minor Agreements.

          Ur-Markus hypothesis, I think, is something quiet different. In my
          understanding, this hypothesis was seeking to identify some
          Aramaic-language sources for Mk, supposing that the first version of Mk
          was written in the Aramaic. Myself, I do not subscribe to this view.

          > Failure to consider all possible explanations (and unfortunately there
          > are many possible explanations) may prejudge the outcome. The only real
          > difficulty I would have with an hypothetical document is a lack of any
          > real controls that an attested text has.

          Yes, there is the question whether or not there's enough controlling
          evidence to establish that there was a pMk. Nevertheless, some good
          evidence does exist, such as the Great Omission in Lk.

          I think there is enough evidence to conlude with Loisy and Koester that
          there was a pMk. But I would agree that we probably do not have enough
          evidence to reconstruct the text of pMk in many places.

          Best,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

          http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
        • Tim Reynolds
          ... Pericope-for-pericope brevity relative to the original is diagnostic of aurally pirated texts. The Bad Quartos of ]Shakespeare s most popular plays are
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 28, 1998
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            In June I e-mailed Dr. Carlson a suggestion regarding his initial question:
            >
            > So, if I may ask the list, how persuasive for Markan priority is and
            > ought to be the arguments from length?
            >
            Pericope-for-pericope brevity relative to the original is diagnostic of aurally pirated texts. The "Bad Quartos" of ]Shakespeare's most popular plays are the best known example. A second characteristic is pervasive minor verbal disagreement with the original. (Sanders, whom you mention, performed a service in demonstrating that the Synoptic microvariants serve no discernible function.)

            Clement, in Morton Smith's letter, describes the situation normally generating such bootlegs, the original "under guard" and "read only to advanced catechumens". The Shakespeare originals were kept backstage in a locked trunk. ]You remember as well as you can and transcribe as soon as you can.

            The aural piracy genre exists. It may be worth discussing whether Mt and Lk are of it.

            Tim Reynolds
            kumo997029

            ***

            The genre exists, there's a whole literature on the Shakespearean end of it. Thomas Heywood, in a preface to his Lucrece of 1608, speaks of early plays of his having "accidentally come into the printers hands and therefore so corrupt and mangled (coppied only by the eare) that I have been as vnable to know them, as ashamed to chalenge them". In 1851 Paris "such eminent preachers as Lacordaire and De Ravignan" complained:

            "More than ever do we see the spread of enterprises aiming, as they directly announce, to publish verbatim issues of sermons, lectures, instructions, delivered in the churches of Paris by the most celebrated preachers; and this against the express wish of these preachers, against their incontestable rights, and to the prejudice of the dignity and liberty of the sacred Word. Consequently, the priests undersigned, who more than others have had to suffer from this lamentable industry, avow that not only are they averse to these reproductions, but that the same are generally inexact, marred, and even so deformed as to compromise, in outward opinion, the purity of their orthodoxy ..."

            Today's pirates use tape recorders.

            There are other indications. Streeter, Four Gospels:

            "A study of mixed texts belonging to other families than the Alexandrian shows that it is not the exception but the rule for the Gospel of Mark to have a much smaller proportion of Byzantine readings than the other Gospels."

            It's our carbon dating: the older the text the greater the Byzantine infection. (This would seem, on the face of it, to tell against Marcan priority. Streeter perceives it as a difficulty. I'm surprised Farmer and all never picked up on it.) Unless the text was unavailable for redaction.

            And if Mk is so prior, where are the papyri?

            The Great Omission, mentioned by Dr. Kuchinsky, represents a reading, or two, or three (an interesting and investigatable question) which Luke missed ( "because he had the flew or something", Koester once wrote.) Luke was in Alexandria in 85 (App. Const.), which is about right.

            There has been a failure to distinguish composition and publication of texts. Your own opera are normally published soon after completion, but not Newton's Principia or Gurdjieff's Life is Real Only Then When I Am, for example. Mark was indeed completed first (apud this model), but wasn't published until (to anticipate) c. 150. For all those years access to the text was only via inhouse readings to "advanced catechumens" (and, I presume, visiting Christian firemen), though after Mt was in circulation no one particularly cared. Hence the piracy(ies). Hence the inexact verbal transmission. Hence the relative pericope-by-pericope brevity of Mt and Lk.

            If this hypothesis proves to be incorrect, I hope you will do me the courtesy of shooting it down.

            Tertium datur,

            Tim Reynolds
            kumo997029


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          • Tim Reynolds
            ... See the original message at http://www.egroups.com/list/synoptic-l/?start=717
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 28, 1998
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              In June I e-mailed Dr. Carlson a suggestion regarding his initial question:
              > >
              > > So, if I may ask the list, how persuasive for Markan priority is and
              > > ought to be the arguments from length?
              > >
              > Pericope-for-pericope brevity relative to the original is diagnostic of aurally pirated texts. The "Bad Quartos" of ]Shakespeare's most popular plays are the best known example. A second characteristic is pervasive minor verbal disagreement with the original. (Sanders, whom you mention, performed a service in demonstrating that the Synoptic microvariants serve no discernible function.)
              >
              > Clement, in Morton Smith's letter, describes the situation normally generating such bootlegs, the original "under guard" and "read only to advanced catechumens". The Shakespeare originals were kept backstage in a locked trunk. ]You remember as well as you can and transcribe as soon as you can.
              >
              > The aural piracy genre exists. It may be worth discussing whether Mt and Lk are of it.
              >
              > Tim Reynolds
              > kumo997029
              >
              > ***
              >
              > The genre exists, there's a whole literature on the Shakespearean end of it. Thomas Heywood, in a preface to his Lucrece of 1608, speaks of early plays of his having "accidentally come into the printers hands and therefore so corrupt and mangled (coppied only by the eare) that I have been as vnable to know them, as ashamed to chalenge them". In 1851 Paris "such eminent preachers as Lacordaire and De Ravignan" complained:
              >
              > "More than ever do we see the spread of enterprises aiming, as they directly announce, to publish verbatim issues of sermons, lectures, instructions, delivered in the churches of Paris by the most celebrated preachers; and this against the express wish of these preachers, against their incontestable rights, and to the prejudice of the dignity and liberty of the sacred Word. Consequently, the priests undersigned, who more than others have had to suffer from this lamentable industry, avow that not only are they averse to these reproductions, but that the same are generally inexact, marred, and even so deformed as to compromise, in outward opinion, the purity of their orthodoxy ..."
              >
              > Today's pirates use tape recorders.
              >
              > There are other indications. Streeter, Four Gospels:
              >
              > "A study of mixed texts belonging to other families than the Alexandrian shows that it is not the exception but the rule for the Gospel of Mark to have a much smaller proportion of Byzantine readings than the other Gospels."
              >
              > It's our carbon dating: the older the text the greater the Byzantine infection. (This would seem, on the face of it, to tell against Marcan priority. Streeter perceives it as a difficulty. I'm surprised Farmer and all never picked up on it.) Unless the text was unavailable for redaction.
              >
              > And if Mk is so prior, where are the papyri?
              >
              > The Great Omission, mentioned by Dr. Kuchinsky, represents a reading, or two, or three (an interesting and investigatable question) which Luke missed ( "because he had the flew or something", Koester once wrote.) Luke was in Alexandria in 85 (App. Const.), which is about right.
              >
              > There has been a failure to distinguish composition and publication of texts. Your own opera are normally published soon after completion, but not Newton's Principia or Gurdjieff's Life is Real Only Then When I Am, for example. Mark was indeed completed first (apud this model), but wasn't published until (to anticipate) c. 150. For all those years access to the text was only via inhouse readings to "advanced catechumens" (and, I presume, visiting Christian firemen), though after Mt was in circulation no one particularly cared. Hence the piracy(ies). Hence the inexact verbal transmission. Hence the relative pericope-by-pericope brevity of Mt and Lk.
              >
              > If this hypothesis proves to be incorrect, I hope you will do me the courtesy of shooting it down.
              >
              > Tertium datur,
              >
              > Tim Reynolds
              > kumo997029
              >
              >
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              > Original Message: http://www.findmail.com/list/synoptic-l/?start=442
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              >
              >



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            • Brian E. Wilson
              Tim Reynolds wrote - ... Any observed lengths are consistent with Mark having been written first, or second, or third. To see this, you only have to consider
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 29, 1998
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                Tim Reynolds wrote -
                >
                >So, if I may ask the list, how persuasive for Markan priority is and
                >ought to be the arguments from length?
                >

                Any observed "lengths" are consistent with Mark having been written
                first, or second, or third.

                To see this, you only have to consider the hypothesis that all three
                synoptists independently copied from a common documentary source. Why
                should the synoptist who wrote last not have retained the wording of the
                common source more faithfully than each of the other two synoptists?

                Priority and primitivity are independent phenomena.

                The argument from length does not exist.

                Best wishes,
                BRIAN WILSON

                E-MAIL: brian@... HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
                SNAILMAIL: Rev B. E. Wilson,
                10 York Close, Godmanchester,
                Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK
              • Kumo997029@aol.com
                Subj: Non-existence of the Argument from Length Date: 98-12-29 15:17:52 EST From: brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk (Brian E. Wilson) To: Synoptic-L@bham.ac.uk ...
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 2, 1999
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                  Subj: Non-existence of the Argument from Length
                  Date: 98-12-29 15:17:52 EST
                  From: brian@... (Brian E. Wilson)
                  To: Synoptic-L@...

                  >Tim Reynolds wrote -
                  >
                  >>So, if I may ask the list, how persuasive for Markan priority is and
                  >>ought to be the arguments from length?

                  Actually, I didn't write that, Carlson did, back in June. I was proposing an
                  answer to his question.

                  >Any observed "lengths" are consistent with Mark having been written
                  >first, or second, or third.

                  >To see this, you only have to consider the hypothesis that all three
                  >synoptists independently copied from a common documentary source. Why
                  >should the synoptist who wrote last not have retained the wording of the
                  >common source more faithfully than each of the other two synoptists?

                  But suppose your hypothesis is incorrect. Sanday presents it in fuller form:

                  "It is very generally agreed that the 'most assured result' of the
                  investigations which have been going on for the best part of a century [as of
                  1910, ed], and with concentrated energy for the last fifty or sixty years, has
                  been the proof of what is commonly called 'the priority of St. Mark'; in other
                  words, the proof that our St. Mark actually lay before the authors of the
                  First and Third Gospels and was used by them in the construction of their own
                  works."

                  There are two undistinguished hypotheses here: first, that Mt and Lk "used"
                  Mk, and secondly, that they "copied" Mk. Sanday himself suggests that
                  "copying" may be misleading:

                  " . . . the ancient writer . . . would not have his copy before him, but would
                  consult it from time to time. He would not follow it clause by clause and
                  phrase by phrase, but would probably read through a whole paragraph at once,
                  and trust to his memory to convey the substance of it safely from one book to
                  the other.

                  "We see here where the opening for looseness of reproduction comes in. There
                  is a substantial interval between reading and writing. During that interval
                  the copy is not before the eye, and in the meantime the brain is actively,
                  though unconsciously, at work. Hence all those slight rearrangements and
                  substitutions which are a marked feature in our texts as we have them. Hence,
                  in a word, all those phenomena which simulate oral transmission. There is a
                  real interval during which the paragraph of text is carried in the mind,
                  though not a long one. The question may be not one of hours or days but only
                  minutes."

                  It would probably be a couple of hours anyway before Matthew or Luke could get
                  off by himself and reproduce, as best he could, the text he had heard read.
                  Still, Sanday has, in principle, solved the Synoptic Problem. He was lacking
                  a convincing mechanism by which memory got involved in the transcription
                  process. Morton Smith's Clement letter provides that mechanism.

                  >Priority and primitivity are independent phenomena.<

                  Uh, okay.

                  >The argument from length does not exist.<

                  Let me rephrase Carlson: Is the pericope-by-pericope brevity of Mt and Lk
                  relative to Mk a clue to Synoptic provenance?

                  Yes, it suggests that Mt and Lk are auditory bootlegs of Mk.

                  Do other clues point in the same direction?

                  Yes, the lack of early Mk papyri, the relative absence of Byzantine infection
                  of the Mk texts, the "great lacuna" in Lk (of which discussion with Bruce
                  Brooks is still hanging). Most decisively, the pervasive textual
                  microvariants in the three texts point to the *existence* of piracy; relative
                  brevity indicates the *direction* of piracy. Once more, the question is not
                  whether this auditory piracy genre exists. The question is whether Lk and Mk
                  are of it.

                  Morton Smith asked me to stop writing him, he'd had a multiple bypass and I
                  gave him a headache. It wasn't me. Those neoHeideggerean spectacles were
                  never intended for looking at the real world.

                  >Best wishes,
                  >BRIAN WILSON

                  Tertium datur,

                  Tim Reynolds
                • Stephen C. Carlson
                  ... I m interested in learning more about the concept of auditory bootlegs. Do you have a recommendation of a good source explaining what auditory bootlegs
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 3, 1999
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                    At 10:56 PM 1/2/99 EST, Kumo997029@... wrote:
                    >Let me rephrase Carlson: Is the pericope-by-pericope brevity of Mt and Lk
                    >relative to Mk a clue to Synoptic provenance?
                    >
                    >Yes, it suggests that Mt and Lk are auditory bootlegs of Mk.
                    >
                    >Do other clues point in the same direction?

                    I'm interested in learning more about the concept of "auditory bootlegs."
                    Do you have a recommendation of a good source explaining what auditory
                    bootlegs are and whether relative brevity is a touchstone of auditory
                    piracy?

                    Stephen Carlson

                    --
                    Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                    Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
                    "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
                  • Kumo997029@aol.com
                    Dr. Carlson, There s no one source, no Encyclopedia Brit entry. The phenomenon has been under Shakespearean attention since Greg: A.S. Cairnross tells us
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 9, 1999
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                      Dr. Carlson,

                      There's no one source, no Encyclopedia Brit entry. The phenomenon has been
                      under Shakespearean attention since Greg:

                      "A.S. Cairnross tells us that Q1 [first quarto, ed] 'has all the recognized
                      features of . . . a report -- abbreviation, transposition of material, the use
                      of synonyms, recollections external and internal; with inferior metre, and
                      verse wrongly divided as prose'."

                      Cited from the most recent relevant study, Maguire, *Shakespearean Suspect
                      Texts: the 'Bad' Quartos and their Contexts*. She isn't, for methodological
                      reasons, comparing texts, which is how what you detect what she calls
                      "omissions, so she's not much help. Background in Hart, *Stolne and
                      Surreptitious Copies: a comparative study of Shakespeare's bad quartos*, and
                      Pollard, *Shakespeare's Fight With the Pirates and the Problem of the
                      Transmission of the Text*.

                      This isn't what you requested. But you really don't need a "good source" at
                      all:

                      To be, or not to be, I there's the point,
                      To Die, to sleepe, is that all? I all:
                      No, to sleepe, to dreame, I mary there it goes,
                      For in that dreame of death, when wee awake,
                      And borne before an euerlasting Iudge,
                      From whence no passenger euer retur'nd,
                      The vndiscouered country, at whose sight
                      The happy smile, and the accursed damn'd.
                      But for this, the ioyfull hope of this,
                      Whol'd beare the scornes and flattery of the world,
                      Scorned by the right rich, the rich curssed of the poore?
                      The widow being oppressed, the orphan wrong'd,
                      The taste of hunger, or a tirants raigne,
                      And thousand more calamities besides,
                      To grunt and sweate vnder this weary life,
                      When that he may his full Quietus make,
                      With a bare bodkin, who would this indure,
                      But for a hope of something after death?
                      Which pusles the braine, and doth confound the sence,
                      Which makes vs rather beare those euilles we haue,
                      Than flie to others that we know not of.
                      I that, O this conscience makes cowardes of vs all,
                      Lady in thy orizons, be all my sinnes remembred.

                      Compare this 22-line First Quarto version with the 35-line Folio version in
                      your bookcase and I think you'll get the picture.

                      SUNERGOS SOU,

                      Tim Reynolds
                    • Brian E. Wilson
                      Tim Reynolds wrote - ... I can see that relative brevity might indicate the absence of piracy in one direction, but not the presence of piracy in the opposite
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 10, 1999
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                        Tim Reynolds wrote -
                        >
                        >relative brevity indicates the *direction* of piracy.
                        >
                        I can see that relative brevity might indicate the absence of piracy in
                        one direction, but not the presence of piracy in the opposite direction.
                        For where one version is briefer than another, each could be briefer
                        than a version prior to both of them. If one version of a Shakespearean
                        speech is longer than another, it simply does not follow that the
                        shorter version was formed by pirating the longer.

                        The pericope-by-pericope brevity of Mt and Lk relative to Mk might
                        indicate that Mark used neither Matthew nor Luke. It is a logical
                        howler, however, to infer from this that therefore Matthew and Luke used
                        Mark. It is perfectly consistent with the pericope-by-pericope brevity
                        of Mt and Lk relative to Mk that no synoptic gospel was dependent on any
                        other synoptic gospel.

                        I think Tim's statement should read -

                        >-- relative brevity indicates the *absence of piracy* in the direction
                        >-- from the shorter to the longer version.
                        >--

                        Best wishes,
                        BRIAN WILSON

                        E-MAIL: brian@... HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
                        SNAILMAIL: Rev B. E. Wilson,
                        10 York Close, Godmanchester,
                        Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK
                      • Kumo997029@aol.com
                        In a message dated 99-01-10 11:26:35 EST, you write:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 12, 1999
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                          In a message dated 99-01-10 11:26:35 EST, you write:

                          <<
                          Tim Reynolds wrote -
                          >
                          >relative brevity indicates the *direction* of piracy.
                          >
                          I can see that relative brevity might indicate the absence of piracy in
                          one direction, but not the presence of piracy in the opposite direction.
                          For where one version is briefer than another, each could be briefer
                          than a version prior to both of them. If one version of a Shakespearean
                          speech is longer than another, it simply does not follow that the
                          shorter version was formed by pirating the longer.

                          The pericope-by-pericope brevity of Mt and Lk relative to Mk might
                          indicate that Mark used neither Matthew nor Luke. It is a logical
                          howler, however, to infer from this that therefore Matthew and Luke used
                          Mark. It is perfectly consistent with the pericope-by-pericope brevity
                          of Mt and Lk relative to Mk that no synoptic gospel was dependent on any
                          other synoptic gospel.

                          I think Tim's statement should read -

                          >-- relative brevity indicates the *absence of piracy* in the direction
                          >-- from the shorter to the longer version.
                          >--

                          Best wishes,
                          BRIAN WILSON
                          >>
                          Brian,

                          You're right as far as you go, but you have only one piece of a three-piece
                          problem.

                          Consider, if you will, the First Quarto [Q1] chunk I sent to Dr. Carlson on a
                          few days ago. We have:

                          1. Textual scrambling, what I've been calling "pervasive textual
                          microvariants". So we know the relation between the Q1 and Folio *may* be
                          auditory piracy.

                          2. The Q1 version is significantly shorter. So we know that *if* AP is
                          involved, the direction is from F to Q1.

                          3. Finally, we know the situation of the F text, locked in a trunk backstage
                          at the Globe while tickets to Hamlet were scalped outside. The case for AP
                          is, I believe, conclusive.

                          Compare the synoptic situation. Minor textual infidelity is the most striking
                          feature of the three texts, the Mt and Lk versions are regularly shorter than
                          their Mk counterparts, and Clement tells us the Mk holograph was "very well
                          guarded" and accessible only through inhouse readings. If this isn't QED, I
                          believe it deserves consideration.

                          A friend suggests I may have overlooked something:

                          Subj: Re: Non-existence of the Argument from Length
                          Date: 99-01-10 17:37:21 EST
                          From: TTalley532
                          To: Kumo997029

                          Tim,
                          Seems a good parallel to the argument from length. It does not explain
                          "auditory piracy," though. Wasn't that what he was asking about?
                          Tom

                          "Auditory piracy" is appropriating a text available only in a public recital
                          venue by listening as hard as you can to a performance and then reconstructing
                          it as well as possible as soon as possible.

                          Tertium datur,

                          Tim
                        • Bob Schacht
                          ... recital ... reconstructing ... I am intrigued by the examples from Shakespeare, and the auditory piracy concept, but the label does not transport well.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 12, 1999
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                            At 07:24 PM 1/12/99 -0500, Kumo997029@... wrote:
                            >...
                            >..."Auditory piracy" is appropriating a text available only in a public
                            recital
                            >venue by listening as hard as you can to a performance and then
                            reconstructing
                            >it as well as possible as soon as possible.
                            >
                            >Tertium datur,
                            >
                            >Tim
                            >

                            I am intrigued by the examples from Shakespeare, and the "auditory piracy"
                            concept, but the label does not transport well. The purposes of the
                            performances were different: Shakespeare had every reason to want to
                            control his intellectual capital. The evangelists, however, were more
                            interested in *spreading* the good news. They would be well pleased at the
                            efforts of an auditor to hear the Word and spread the News. This makes the
                            concept all the more interesting, although a different label is needed.
                            Contrast the following: Imagine a member of the audience coming up to the
                            actor who portrayed Hamlet and saying, "That was a great soliloquy you did
                            there; I got the 'To be, or not to be, that is the question! Whether tis
                            nobler..." etc etc. for several lines, and then saying "but I lost track
                            after that. Could you repeat what you said after that?" Well, the actor
                            might not be to eager to recite the same lines for the benefit of the
                            memorizer. But now imagine the same scene with an evangelist: "That sermon
                            on the plain was really great, but I can only remember the first three
                            blessings. What were the other ones?" The reader in this case would
                            probably be happy to supply the information-- orally. One might even say
                            that among the evangelists, 'auditory piracy' would have been encouraged?
                            So in the case of the Synoptics, back-checking might have been an
                            acceptable practice, whereas in the case of auditory piracy, back-checking
                            would have been difficult. On the other hand, the distance between
                            performances might have been greater if a whole gospel were to be heard
                            only from the bishop's copy as he toured his domain.

                            Nevertheless, the statistics on the mechanics of similarity between
                            Shakespearean copies might make interesting comparisons regarding the
                            Synoptics-- but one should also include statistics on textual variants
                            within a text tradition.

                            Would one of the trademarks of auditory piracy be confusion of homonyms? Do
                            we have any examples of that?

                            Bob
                            Robert Schacht
                            Northern Arizona University
                            Robert.Schacht@...

                            "This success of my endeavors was due, I believe, to a rule of 'method':
                            that we should always try to clarify and to strengthen our opponent's
                            position as much as possible before criticizing him, if we wish our
                            criticism to be worth while." [Sir Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific
                            Discovery (1968), p. 260 n.*5]
                          • Brian E. Wilson
                            Tim Reynolds wrote - ... Tim, sorry if I am labouring the point, but no, we do not know this at all. I would suggest your statement should read - ... The
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 13, 1999
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                              Tim Reynolds wrote -
                              >
                              >The Q1 version is significantly shorter. So we know that *if* AP is
                              >involved, the direction is from F to Q1.
                              >
                              Tim, sorry if I am labouring the point, but no, we do not know this at
                              all. I would suggest your statement should read -
                              >
                              >The Q1 version is significantly shorter. So we know that *if* AP is
                              >involved, the direction is NOT FROM Q1 TO F.
                              >
                              The conclusion that the direction is not from Q1 to F is consistent both
                              with AP in the direction from F to Q1, and also with *no* AP in the
                              direction from F to Q1. If AP is involved, what can be inferred is the
                              negative conclusion that the AP is not in a given direction. The
                              positive conclusion, that AP is in a given direction, cannot be inferred
                              from the data.

                              Q1 being significantly shorter than F is a directional NON-indicator.

                              Of course, if "F" is the original autograph, then the direction cannot
                              be from Q1 to F in any case. We would know this, however, without even
                              looking at Q1, and it would not follow from a comparison of F and Q1,
                              but would be true even if Q1 was significantly longer than F. The
                              special situation of "F" being an autograph manuscript is hypothetical,
                              however, since we do not have any autograph manuscripts of the works of
                              Shakespeare. Indeed, the whole point of arguing from the occurrence of
                              AP arises from the original autographs having been lost. If we had the
                              autographs, the non-original parts of the dependent scripts would be
                              obvious irrespective of arguments from the occurrence of AP.

                              In my view the distinction between a directional indicator and a
                              directional non-indicator is by no means trivial. It seems to me that a
                              great deal of synoptic criticism founders on this point. It is not at
                              all easy to show that the writer of document Y used document X. Very
                              often the data adduced shows *not* that the writer of document Y used X,
                              but that the writer of document X did not use Y. The crucial point is
                              that X not using Y is not the same as Y using X. Showing that Matthew
                              did not use Luke does not show that Luke used Matthew, and so on. I have
                              yet to see an argument that Luke used Matthew which does not attempt to
                              use a directional non-indicator as a directional indicator.

                              Best wishes,
                              BRIAN WILSON

                              E-MAIL: brian@... HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
                              SNAILMAIL: Rev B. E. Wilson,
                              10 York Close, Godmanchester,
                              Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK
                            • Mark Goodacre
                              Like Bob I am intrigued by the possibility that the first quarto of Hamlet (etc.) and its relationship to the folio version might shed light on the synoptic
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 13, 1999
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                                Like Bob I am intrigued by the possibility that the first quarto of Hamlet
                                (etc.) and its relationship to the folio version might shed light on the
                                synoptic problem and I am grateful to Tim for bringing it up. I once went to
                                see a performance of the first quarto of Hamlet, a real curiosity the most
                                memorable part of which was indeed "To be or not to be; aye, there's the
                                point". I seem to remember too that the line "O that this too too solid flesh
                                would melt" was rendered "O that this too too sullied flesh would melt" (or
                                vice versa?), which would be well explained by auditory piracy -- either word
                                would make good sense.

                                However in relation to the Synoptic Problem, and specifically the argument from
                                length, several qualifications need to be made:

                                (1) It is not the case that Matthew and Luke are consistently shorter than Mark
                                in indvidual pericopae as Sanders demonstrated in _Tendencies_ (see several
                                previous messasges on this).

                                (2) The first quarto of Hamlet is overall shorter than the folio version. I
                                remember this clearly because we had time to get a couple of rounds in before
                                closing time (often the most memorable part of the evening). Now this means
                                that the first quarto is shorter both in overall length and in individual
                                particulars like the famous soliloquy (22 lines vs. 35 by Tim's count). This,
                                then, is different from the situation in the Synoptics where Mark is overall
                                shorter but sometimes in indvidual percipae longer.

                                The following qualification from Bob is also right, I think, and all the more
                                so if one accepts the conclusions of the recent book by Bauckham (ed.) on
                                Gospel Audiences:

                                > I am intrigued by the examples from Shakespeare, and the "auditory piracy"
                                > concept, but the label does not transport well. The purposes of the
                                > performances were different: Shakespeare had every reason to want to control
                                > his intellectual capital. The evangelists, however, were more interested in
                                > *spreading* the good news. They would be well pleased at the efforts of an
                                > auditor to hear the Word and spread the News. This makes the concept all the
                                > more interesting, although a different label is needed.

                                But I for one would be interested to hear any more reflections on how this
                                analogy from Shakespeare might help us get our nose out of the Synopsis.

                                Mark
                                --------------------------------------
                                Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@...
                                Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham

                                Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre
                                --------------------------------------

                                Synoptic-L Web Page: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                                Synoptic-L Archive: http://www.egroups.com/list/synoptic-l
                                Synoptic-L Owner: mailto:Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                              • Kumo997029@aol.com
                                In a message dated 99-01-12 23:47:05 EST, you write:
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 16, 1999
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                                  In a message dated 99-01-12 23:47:05 EST, you write:

                                  << Subj: "auditory piracy"
                                  Date: 99-01-12 23:47:05 EST
                                  From: Robert.Schacht@... (Bob Schacht)
                                  To: Synoptic-L@...

                                  At 07:24 PM 1/12/99 -0500, Kumo997029@... wrote:
                                  >...
                                  >..."Auditory piracy" is appropriating a text available only in a public
                                  recital
                                  >venue by listening as hard as you can to a performance and then
                                  reconstructing
                                  >it as well as possible as soon as possible.
                                  >
                                  >Tertium datur,
                                  >
                                  >Tim
                                  >

                                  I am intrigued by the examples from Shakespeare, and the "auditory piracy"
                                  concept, but the label does not transport well. The purposes of the
                                  performances were different: Shakespeare had every reason to want to
                                  control his intellectual capital. The evangelists, however, were more
                                  interested in *spreading* the good news. They would be well pleased at the
                                  efforts of an auditor to hear the Word and spread the News. This makes the
                                  concept all the more interesting, although a different label is needed.
                                  Contrast the following: Imagine a member of the audience coming up to the
                                  actor who portrayed Hamlet and saying, "That was a great soliloquy you did
                                  there; I got the 'To be, or not to be, that is the question! Whether tis
                                  nobler..." etc etc. for several lines, and then saying "but I lost track
                                  after that. Could you repeat what you said after that?" Well, the actor
                                  might not be to eager to recite the same lines for the benefit of the
                                  memorizer. But now imagine the same scene with an evangelist: "That sermon
                                  on the plain was really great, but I can only remember the first three
                                  blessings. What were the other ones?" The reader in this case would
                                  probably be happy to supply the information-- orally. One might even say
                                  that among the evangelists, 'auditory piracy' would have been encouraged?
                                  So in the case of the Synoptics, back-checking might have been an
                                  acceptable practice, whereas in the case of auditory piracy, back-checking
                                  would have been difficult. On the other hand, the distance between
                                  performances might have been greater if a whole gospel were to be heard
                                  only from the bishop's copy as he toured his domain.

                                  {I wish I could work the response business in the list.

                                  {This just in (AP!):

                                  {CHURCH REPORTS THEFT OF SACRED BONES

                                  {CHANDLER, Ariz.--Centuries-old sacred bone fragments and the reliquary box in
                                  which they were displayed have disappeared from a Greek Orthodox Church. The
                                  pebble-sized fragments date from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

                                  {"These are very highly venerated," said the Rev. Philip Armstrong, priest of
                                  St. Katherine Greek Orthodox Church. "The relics of saints are considered to
                                  be sources for healings, for answered prayers and for the blessing of
                                  premises. It is really a grave loss spiritually to us."
                                  --Associat
                                  ed Press

                                  {While the Church wanted Christians to share in these benefits, the idea was
                                  that they'd do it in Chandler. Matthew had to steal Mark's text for the same
                                  reason the Venetians had to steal his body. The only difference I can see is
                                  that the Hamlet pirate did it for money and Mt did it to make this unique
                                  recruitment tool available to Christendom at large, exhibiting that zeal you
                                  posit of the evangelists, which difference doesn't affect the texts.}

                                  Nevertheless, the statistics on the mechanics of similarity between
                                  Shakespearean copies might make interesting comparisons regarding the
                                  Synoptics-- but one should also include statistics on textual variants
                                  within a text tradition.

                                  {Let's not get over-involved with Shakespeare. It's more or less an accident
                                  that AP scholarship is more or less confined to Shakespeare studies. Once
                                  sensitized to the phenomenon one runs across it from time to time. In 1851
                                  Paris "such eminent preachers as Lacordaire and De Ravignan" complained:

                                  {"More than ever do we see the spread of enterprises aiming, as they
                                  directly announce, to publish verbatim issues of sermons, lectures,
                                  instructions, delivered in the churches of Paris by the most celebrated
                                  preachers; and this against the express wish of these preachers, against
                                  their incontestable rights, and to the prejudice of the dignity and
                                  liberty of the sacred Word. Consequently, the priests undersigned, who
                                  more than others have had to suffer from this lamentable industry, avow
                                  that not only are they averse to these reproductions, but that the same
                                  are generally inexact, marred, and even so deformed as to compromise, in
                                  outward opinion, the purity of their orthodoxy ..."}

                                  Would one of the trademarks of auditory piracy be confusion of homonyms? Do
                                  we have any examples of that?

                                  {Morton Smith suggested I go after itacisms. My snotty feeling (I was
                                  younger) was that if he couldn't see what was going on a couple of itacisms
                                  wouldn't enlighten him. But yes, homonyms would be "trademarks of auditory
                                  piracy". I haven't looked. Thesis topic.}

                                  Bob
                                  Robert Schacht
                                  Northern Arizona University
                                  Robert.Schacht@... >>

                                  {Tim}
                                • Maluflen@aol.com
                                  Dear list, I don t know who started it, but I do hope we have seen the last for a while of discourse on auditory piracy. I think it is an extremely unpromising
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 17, 1999
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                                    Dear list,

                                    I don't know who started it, but I do hope we have seen the last for a
                                    while of discourse on auditory piracy. I think it is an extremely unpromising
                                    avenue to pursue, especially as an explanation for the gospels of Matthew and
                                    Luke, understood as deriving from a presumed "heard" Mark. The authors of both
                                    these Gospels are manifestly persons who had intimate, hands-on familiarity
                                    with numerous books, and it is unlikely in the extreme that, even in the (also
                                    unlikely) event that the Gospel of Mark already existed when they wrote, they
                                    were reduced to the exigency of picking up what they could of it from random
                                    auditory events. The theory simply doesn't merit the further exercise of our
                                    collective mental resources, in my never-too-humble view. Requiescat in pace.
                                    Amen.

                                    By the way, happy New Year, everyone!

                                    Leonard Maluf
                                  • Antonio Jerez
                                    ... AMEN to each and everyone of those words of wisdom! Best wishes Antonio Jerez
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 17, 1999
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                                      Leonard Maluf wrote:

                                      >Dear list,
                                      >
                                      > I don't know who started it, but I do hope we have seen the last for a
                                      >while of discourse on auditory piracy. I think it is an extremely unpromising
                                      >avenue to pursue, especially as an explanation for the gospels of Matthew and
                                      >Luke, understood as deriving from a presumed "heard" Mark. The authors of both
                                      >these Gospels are manifestly persons who had intimate, hands-on familiarity
                                      >with numerous books, and it is unlikely in the extreme that, even in the (also
                                      >unlikely) event that the Gospel of Mark already existed when they wrote, they
                                      >were reduced to the exigency of picking up what they could of it from random
                                      >auditory events. The theory simply doesn't merit the further exercise of our
                                      >collective mental resources, in my never-too-humble view. Requiescat in pace.
                                      >Amen.
                                      >
                                      >By the way, happy New Year, everyone!
                                      >
                                      >Leonard Maluf


                                      AMEN to each and everyone of those words of wisdom!

                                      Best wishes

                                      Antonio Jerez
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