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Re: [Synoptic-L] Luke's Anointing of Jesus

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  • Yuri Kuchinsky
    ... be ... dependence? ... What later material would that be, Larry? As to early materials in Lk, here are some of the notable ones, besides the recently
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 13, 2000
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      ----------
      > From: L. J. Swain <x99swain@...>
      > To: yuku@...
      > Cc: Synoptic-L@...; Brian E. Wilson <brian@...>
      > Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Luke's Anointing of Jesus
      > Date: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 5:02 PM
      >
      > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
      >
      > > Why a gospel that consistently preserves a lot of early material should
      be
      > > declared as "obviously later" by every major theory of synoptic
      dependence?
      > > This is a question that should be addressed. Perhaps the assumption of
      > > Lukan lateness needs to be re-examined.

      > Could it possibly be that it also preserves later material which helps
      > suggest a later terminus ad quem?

      What "later material" would that be, Larry?

      As to early materials in Lk, here are some of the notable ones, besides the
      recently analyzed Anointing scene,

      - The sayings materials of Lk are seen as more primitive than those of Mt
      by all 2ST adherents, which are the overwhelming majority of biblical
      scholars today.

      - There's substantial evidence that the passion narrative of Lk, starting
      with Lk 22, preserves a lot of primitive material and sequences better than
      Mk and Mt.

      - Lukan Great Omission. Many scholars believe this preserves the primitive
      sequence of Lk's source (which was probably also the source of Mk/Mt).
      Thus, the materials in Mk/Mt where the triple tradition becomes the double
      tradition after Lk 9:17 would have been inserted later.

      - Brian Wilson's "An example of Matthaean fatigue with respect to Luke: The
      Question of John the Baptist Mt 11.2-6 // Lk 7.18-23" can also be added
      here.

      Speaking about Brian's "Greek Notes Hypothesis", how would the Anointing in
      the four canonicals be explained under the GNH? Here's a nice test for
      Brian's hypothesis, so perhaps he would like to address this issue for us?

      > > My current thinking on this general subject is that I would date all 4
      > > gospels _in their present form_ rather later than most commentators.
      Also,
      > > I incline to the view that a common source X underlies all 4 canonicals
      > > (this source X may be described either as proto-Mk, or perhaps as
      > > proto-Lk). It may well be that _in its present form_ Lk is the oldest
      of
      > > the 4 canonicals, because, relatively speaking, it preserves the source
      X
      > > better than others.

      > And you have an explanation of the source "X" I presume, or simply taking
      > shots in the dark?--

      As I said, Spitta was the one who first proposed this theory.

      Friedrich Spitta, "Ein Lb. Jesu aus den drei ersten Evv. Dt. Übers. der
      synopt. Grundschr. in ihrer Überl. Durch das Lukasev."; Leipzig 1912.

      And speaking about "taking shots in the dark", considering how little
      consensus exists in the Synoptic field even about the most basic issues,
      just about everybody here may be taking shots in the dark.

      Yours,

      Yuri.

      Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

      Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated

      The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
      equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
    • Tim Reynolds
      ... On the auditory piracy model, Luke s attendance at the catechetical readings was interrupted for some reason -- because he had the flew or something ,
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 13, 2000
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        Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

        > - Lukan Great Omission. Many scholars believe this preserves the primitive
        > sequence of Lk's source (which was probably also the source of Mk/Mt).
        > Thus, the materials in Mk/Mt where the triple tradition becomes the double
        > tradition after Lk 9:17 would have been inserted later.

        On the "auditory piracy" model, Luke's attendance at the catechetical readings
        was interrupted for some reason -- "because he had the flew or something",
        Koester put it. The equivalent material in Mk would then represent a day's
        reading or a small multiple thereof, useful information.

        tim
      • Brian E. Wilson
        Yuri Kuchinsky wrote -- ... I set out in full in Greek (using Sgreek font) The Anointing at Bethany - Mk 14.3-9, and The Woman with the Ointment - Lk
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 14, 2000
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          Yuri Kuchinsky wrote --
          >
          >Speaking about Brian's "Greek Notes Hypothesis", how would the
          >Anointing in the four canonicals be explained under the GNH? Here's a
          >nice test for Brian's hypothesis, so perhaps he would like to address
          >this issue for us?
          >
          I set out in full in Greek (using Sgreek font) "The Anointing at
          Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9, and "The Woman with the Ointment" - Lk 7.36-47, in
          the hand-out of the talk I gave in Finland which can be accessed via my
          home-page at --

          http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk

          (and can hopefully be printed out on either American size paper or A4 !)

          According to the GNH, both "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9
          (paralleled in Mt 26.6-13) and "The Woman with the Ointment" (Lk
          7.36-50) were in the Greek Notes. The two stories form one of the 24
          instances I observe of "story dualities". (4 of these are appended to
          the Finland talk, since they were discovered subsequent to the hand-outs
          being printed).

          A story duality may be defined as the occurrence in the synoptic gospels
          of two stories ("dua-stories") -- either narratives or parables -- such
          that (i) one story has at least ten Greek word roots the same and in the
          same order as the other story, and (ii) when these similar words (the
          overlap), together with the phrases in which they are set, are omitted
          from one story, this does not make more consistent sense than the story
          as a whole, but when the similar words with the phrases in which they
          are set are omitted from the other story, the remainder does make more
          consistent sense than the story as a whole. The more consistent story
          formed in the remainder in this way may be called the remainder story.
          In a story duality, therefore, one dua-story does not make more
          consistent sense when the overlap wording and surrounding phrases are
          omitted from it, but the other dua-story does make more consistent sense
          without the overlap wording and surrounding phrases. The two dua-stories
          may be in different synoptic gospels, or they may be in the same
          synoptic gospel. Either way, whether "horizontally" across the columns
          of a synopsis, or "vertically" within the column of the individual
          synoptic gospel, they form a story duality. The pattern is
          "bidirectional".

          The GNH explains the entire pattern of 47 stories forming 24 story
          dualities (one of the stories is used in two story dualities). In each
          case, the compiler of the Greek Notes took wording from a story he had
          already written out (the first dua-story), and used this wording to
          expand another story (in fact the remainder story) he wanted to use (so
          forming the second dua-story). On the GNH, it is because the second
          story was produced by interrupting what had been a coherent story with
          wording from a quite different story, that the second dua-story is not
          coherent.

          According to the GNH, in the "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9
          (paralleled in Mt 26.6-13) and "The Woman with the Ointment" (Lk
          7.36-50), the wording in common and in the same order between these
          stories indicates the presence of wording from the Anointing at Bethany
          being used by the compiler of the Greek Notes to expand a story of a
          Woman with Ointment. The un-expanded version of this story is given in
          Greek in blue font on page 2 of the Finland talk, and in English in blue
          font on page 3. The ways in which the un-expanded version lacks the
          incoherence of the second dua-story as a whole are given in the talk in
          the left-hand column. It may be said briefly here that conflicts in the
          second dua-story between "love resulting in forgiveness" and
          "forgiveness resulting in love", and between "premeditated bringing of
          the ointment" and "apparently spontaneous tears", are not present in the
          remainder story, once the word-roots the same and in the same order and
          the phrase in which they are set are removed. That is, the remainder
          story is devoid of the conflicts present in the second dua-story as a
          whole.

          Mark (and Matthew) omitted "The Woman with the Ointment" but used "The
          Anointing at Bethany" from the Greek Notes, whereas Luke omitted the
          "Woman with Ointment" and used "The Anointing at Bethany" from the Greek
          Notes. Neither Mark nor Luke edited the wording of their material
          sufficiently to mask the way in which the two stories had come to form a
          story duality. Matthew, on the other hand, edited "The Anointing at
          Bethany" more heavily than Mark, with the consequence that the Matthean
          story does not form a story duality with the Lukan story.

          The GNH is a solution to the Synoptic Problem, and does not affirm a
          relationship between material in the synoptic gospels and the Gospel of
          John. The Anointing in John is not a test of the GNH, therefore, but is
          possibly a test of the Logia Translation Hypothesis (which is stated on
          my home-page). Suffice it to say here that I have found no indications
          that John has any of the repetitions of wording found in any of the 24
          story dualities in the synoptic gospels. For instance, although the
          feeding of the five thousand in Mark has wording the same and in the
          same order in the feeding of the four thousand in Mark, and forms a
          story duality in Mark, the repetition of the same word roots in the same
          order in the four thousand is not found in John, but only a story of the
          feeding of the five thousand. On this basis, it would seem probable that
          John used neither the Greek Notes nor any synoptic gospel, but either a
          translation of the Hebrew/Aramaic Logia into Greek (other than the Greek
          Notes) or that he used the Hebrew/Aramaic Logia themselves, doing his
          own translating into Greek as he went along. On this view, John read
          both the "Anointing in Bethany" and the original un-expanded version of
          "The Woman with the Ointment" in the Hebrew/Aramaic Logia, or a Greek
          translation other than the Greek Notes, and combined parts of these two
          stories, with snippets from other stories concerning Mary and Martha,
          and Lazarus, to form part of his eclectic narrative Jn 12.1-8.

          Best wishes,
          BRIAN WILSON

          E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

          Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
          > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
          > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
          _
        • Yuri Kuchinsky
          ... Brian, Please explain why did the author of your Greek Notes have two versions of this story in the GN. ... So are you saying that Lk version is based on
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 16, 2000
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            ----------
            > From: Brian E. Wilson <brian@...>
            > To: Synoptic-L@...
            > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Luke's Anointing of Jesus
            > Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 3:01 PM

            > According to the GNH, both "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9
            > (paralleled in Mt 26.6-13) and "The Woman with the Ointment" (Lk
            > 7.36-50) were in the Greek Notes.

            Brian,

            Please explain why did the author of your Greek Notes have two versions of
            this story in the GN.

            ...

            > According to the GNH, in the "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9
            > (paralleled in Mt 26.6-13) and "The Woman with the Ointment" (Lk
            > 7.36-50), the wording in common and in the same order between these
            > stories indicates the presence of wording from the Anointing at Bethany
            > being used by the compiler of the Greek Notes to expand a story of a
            > Woman with Ointment.

            So are you saying that Lk version is based on Mk's? What are your reasons
            for saying so?

            Regards,

            Yuri.

            Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

            Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated

            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
          • Brian E. Wilson
            Brian Wilson wrote -- ... Yuri Kuchinsky wrote -- ... Yuri, They are not two versions of the same story. They are one story from the source material used by
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 17, 2000
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              Brian Wilson wrote --
              >
              >According to the GNH, both "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9
              >(paralleled in Mt 26.6-13) and "The Woman with the Ointment" (Lk
              >7.36-50) were in the Greek Notes.
              >
              Yuri Kuchinsky wrote --
              >
              >Please explain why did the author of your Greek Notes have two versions
              >of this story in the GN.
              >
              Yuri,
              They are not two versions of the same story. They are one story
              from the source material used by the compiler of the Greek Notes, and a
              second quite different story from the same source material which the
              compiler chose to expand by using parts of the first story. They are a
              "story duality" as defined in my last posting, and in my Finland talk
              (on my homepage) entitled "Duality in the Synoptic Gospels".

              The first story is "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9, which Mark
              took from the Greek Notes. Matthew independently took the same story
              from the Greek Notes but edited the wording more heavily than Mark to
              produce the parallel in Mt 26.6-13.

              The second story was the following. It is set out in full in Greek in
              the blue wording on page two of my Finland talk - "Duality in the
              Synoptic Gospels" -- shown on my home-page. It also set out in English
              in blue wording on the third page of the talk. I give the English
              version here --

              "And behold, (a woman) of the city who was a sinner when she learned
              that he was at table in the Pharisee's house...standing behind him at
              his feet, weeping, began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them
              with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet...Now when the Pharisee
              who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, 'If this man were a
              prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is
              touching him, for she is a sinner.' And Jesus answering said to him,
              'Simon, I have something to say to you.' And he answered, 'What is it,
              Teacher?'...And turning toward the woman he said to Simon, 'Do you see
              this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but
              she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You
              gave me no kiss, but from the time I cam in she has not ceased to kiss
              my feet. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven,
              for she loved much...And he said to her, 'Your sins are forgiven.' Then
              those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, 'Who is
              this, who even forgives sins?' And he said to the woman, 'Your faith has
              saved you; go in peace.'"

              Please notice that the second story has no mention of anointing, no
              mention of alabaster flask, no mention of ointment, no mention of Jesus'
              head, no mention of love being the result of having already been
              forgiven, no mention of a sum of money of hundreds of denarii, and so
              on. Please see the other details and further comments on pages 2 and 3
              of the Finland talk entitled "Duality in the Synoptic Gospels".
              >
              >So are you saying that Lk's version is based on Mk's?
              >
              Your question could be taken to mean that the Gospel of Luke is a
              documentary descendant of the Gospel of Mark. Basic to the understanding
              of the Greek Notes Hypothesis is that no synoptic gospel is the
              documentary descendant of any other synoptic gospel. From this
              viewpoint, no part of Luke is based on any part of Mark. I think we need
              to put the question in "neutral" terms -- terms which do not suggest
              any particular documentary relationship between any synoptic gospels.
              The question might be more appropriately phrased --

              What is the origin of the similarities of wording between "The Anointing
              at Bethany" (found in Mk 14.3-9) and "The Woman with the Ointment"
              (found in Lk 7.36-50)?

              The answer is given in the Finland talk (section C on page 10), in my
              previous posting on this List, and above.

              The basic principle of what I say above applies to all 24 story
              dualities observed. The key idea is that the duality in these pairs of
              stories is in each case the result of the compiler of the Greek Notes
              deliberately re-using some wording from one story to expand another
              story. The compiler of the Greek Notes was "repetitious". As I indicate
              in Section D of the Finland talk, many other types of duality in the
              synoptic gospels may also stem from the compiler of the Greek Notes
              being a repetitious writer. For instance each of the thirty categories
              of duality described and listed by Frans Neirynck in his "Duality in
              Mark", (examples of these types of duality also being found in non-
              Markan Matthew and non-Markan Luke but not investigated by Neirynck, as
              far as I know), may be indications of a repetitive style of writing of
              the compiler of the Greek Notes. One of these categories of duality
              (number 30 in Neirynck's list) is "doublets". According to the Greek
              Notes Hypothesis, many of the doublets in the synoptic gospels are also
              the result of the repetitiousness of the compiler of the Greek Notes.

              Best wishes,
              E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

              Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
              > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
              > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
              _
            • Yuri Kuchinsky
              Brian, From your August 17 reply (http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/4627) it seems like you re offering the following hypothesis in 6 parts to explain
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 21, 2000
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                Brian,

                From your August 17 reply (http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/4627)
                it seems like you're offering the following hypothesis in 6 parts to
                explain the anointing stories in the Synoptics.

                1. There was a story in the source material used by the compiler of the
                Greek Notes.
                2. There was another story in the source material used by the compiler of
                the Greek Notes.
                3. The compiler expanded the second story by using parts of the first
                story.
                4. The second story was the following:

                "And behold, (a woman) of the city who was a sinner when she learned
                that he was at table in the Pharisee's house...standing behind him at
                his feet, weeping, began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them
                with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet...Now when the Pharisee
                who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, 'If this man were a
                prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is
                touching him, for she is a sinner.' And Jesus answering said to him,
                'Simon, I have something to say to you.' And he answered, 'What is it,
                Teacher?'...And turning toward the woman he said to Simon, 'Do you see
                this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but
                she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You
                gave me no kiss, but from the time I cam in she has not ceased to kiss
                my feet. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven,
                for she loved much...And he said to her, 'Your sins are forgiven.' Then
                those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, 'Who is
                this, who even forgives sins?' And he said to the woman, 'Your faith has
                saved you; go in peace.'"

                5. The first GN story became "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9.
                6. The second GN story, presumably after its rather mysterious expansion,
                became "The Anointing in Lk 7".

                But the problem is that so far you've offered here not a scintilla of
                support for the first 4 parts of your hypothesis, which indeed seem
                extremely cumbersome.

                Your referrals to your webpage are not really a valid argument. I asked
                you some simple questions, and I expected a simple explanation.

                Surely, you do not expect everybody just to accept your theory without
                proof. It doesn't seem so very economical, to say the least, and neither
                is it so self-evident that the scholarly community can be expected to
                accept it by acclamation.

                Now, to make my position clear, I actually do accept that the authors of
                both
                Mk and Lk used a common documentary source. But the way in which I see
                this common source is very different indeed from they way you see it. In
                my view, this source was a relatively short and uncomplicated
                Jewish-Christian gospel, and it contained the Anointing in the shape very
                close to the way we now see it in Lk. And the Markan version would have
                been produced much later.

                So, in my view, your theory tends to raise many more questions than it
                actually purports to answer.

                Regards,

                Yuri.

                Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

                Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated

                The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
              • Brian E. Wilson
                Brian Wilson wrote (17 Aug) -- ... Yuri Kuchinsky replied -- ... Yuri, My August 17 reply made it very clear that the hypothesis I was offering was the Greek
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 22, 2000
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                  Brian Wilson wrote (17 Aug) --
                  >
                  >What is the origin of the similarities of wording between "The
                  >Anointing at Bethany" (found in Mk 14.3-9) and "The Woman with the
                  >Ointment" (found in Lk 7.36-50)? The answer is given in the Finland
                  >talk (section C on page 10), in my previous posting on this List, and
                  >above. The basic principle of what I say above applies to all 24 story
                  >dualities observed. The key idea is that the duality in these pairs of
                  >stories is in each case the result of the compiler of the Greek Notes
                  >deliberately re-using some wording from one story to expand another
                  >story. The compiler of the Greek Notes was "repetitious".
                  >
                  Yuri Kuchinsky replied --
                  >
                  >From your August 17 reply it seems like you're offering the following
                  >hypothesis in 6 parts to explain the anointing stories in the
                  >Synoptics.
                  >1. There was a story in the source material used by the compiler of the
                  >Greek Notes.
                  >2. There was another story in the source material used by the compiler
                  >of the Greek Notes.
                  >3. The compiler expanded the second story by using parts of the first
                  >story.
                  >4. The second story was the following:
                  >"And behold, (a woman) of the city ... [snip] ... go in peace."
                  >5. The first GN story became "The Anointing at Bethany" - Mk 14.3-9.
                  >6. The second GN story, presumably after its rather mysterious
                  >expansion, became "The Anointing in Lk 7".
                  >
                  Yuri,
                  My August 17 reply made it very clear that the hypothesis I was
                  offering was the Greek Notes Hypothesis, as shown above. This hypothesis
                  is a solution to the Synoptic Problem. It can be applied to the synoptic
                  gospels. What you have reproduced above is my application of the Greek
                  Notes Hypothesis to one story duality which is only one of 24 instances
                  of this observed synoptic phenomenon. The Greek Notes Hypothesis applies
                  in a similar way to all 24 observed instances.

                  The evidence for the Greek Notes Hypothesis includes all the observed
                  instances of synoptic parallelism (for example the similarities and
                  differences between the synoptic gospels in the triple tradition), all
                  the observed instances of synoptic bi-directionality (for example the
                  occurrence of story dualities, and of doublets) and all the observed
                  instances of synoptic format (for example the occurrence of cipher
                  numbers in the papyri of the synoptic gospels in Greek).

                  The problem with your writing on this topic is that it seems not to
                  refer to any solution to the Synoptic Problem. I have yet to understand
                  that you have any clear solution to the Synoptic Problem to offer.

                  There is an infinite number of ways of explaining the similarities and
                  differences between the "Anointing at Bethany" in Mk 14.3-9 and "Luke's
                  Anointing of Jesus" in Lk 7.36-50. Such theories are easy to produce.
                  The harder job is to find just one synoptic hypothesis of the
                  relationship between the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, which is
                  consistent with all observed synoptic phenomena (including the
                  similarities and differences between the "Anointing at Bethany" and
                  "Luke's Anointing of Jesus"), and so solve the Synoptic Problem.

                  Best wishes,
                  BRIAN WILSON

                  E-mail; brian@... HOMEPAGE www.twonh.demon.co.uk

                  Rev B.E.Wilson,10 York Close,Godmanchester,Huntingdon,Cambs,PE29 2EB,UK
                  > "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot
                  > speak thereof one must be silent." Ludwig Wittgenstein, "Tractatus".
                  _
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