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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re Lk 10,18 eqewroun

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/1/2000 3:13:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu writes:
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 1, 2000
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      In a message dated 7/1/2000 3:13:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      cwconrad@... writes:

      << DEDWKA is not aorist but perfect tense; the aorist would be EDWKA. >>

      Thanks, Carl. That is of course true. I believe this has relatively little
      effect on my argument, however. What did you think of the arguments for a 3rd
      plural form in Lk 10:18?

      Leonard Maluf
    • Carl W. Conrad
      ... Let me acknowledge a modicum of plausibility to it, upon a closer look. The text:17 hUPESTREYAN DE hOI hEBDOMHKONTA [DUO] META CARAS LEGONTES: KURIE, KAI
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 2, 2000
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        Re: [Synoptic-L] Re Lk 10,18 eqewroun
        At 3:54 PM -0400 7/1/00, Maluflen@... wrote:
        >In a message dated 7/1/2000 3:13:51 PM Eastern Daylight
        Time,
        >cwconrad@... writes:
        >
        ><< DEDWKA is not aorist but perfect tense; the aorist would
        be EDWKA. >>
        >
        >Thanks, Carl. That is of course true. I believe this has
        relatively little
        >effect on my argument, however. What did you think of the
        arguments for a 3rd
        >plural form in Lk 10:18?

        Let me acknowledge a modicum of plausibility to it, upon a closer look. The text:17 hUPESTREYAN DE hOI hEBDOMHKONTA [DUO] META CARAS LEGONTES: 'KURIE, KAI TA DAIMONIA hUPOTASSETAI hHMIN EN TWi ONOMATI SOU'. 18. EIPEN DE AUTOIS: 'EQEWROUN TON SATANAN hWS ASTRAPHN EK TOU OURANOU PESONTA. 19. IDOU DEDWKA hUMIN THN EXOUSIAN TOU PATEIN EPANW OFEWN KAI SKORPIWN, KAI EPI PASAN THN DUNAMIN TOU ECQROU, KAI OUDEN hUMAS OU MH ADIKHSHi. 20 PLHN EN TOUTWi MH CAIRETE hOTI TA PNEUMATA hUMIN hUPOTASSETAI, CAIRETE DE hOTI TA ONOMATA hUMWN EGGEGRAPTAI ET TOIS OURANOIS.

        The disciples returning form their mission report that what most has impressed them is the subordination of TA DAIMONIA to them as they act in Jesus' name (as I understand the force of EN TWi ONOMATI SOU). Jesus replies (18): "they were having a vision (EQEWROUN impf. 3d pl.): Satan hurled like a stroke of lightning from heaven (PESONTA aor. pass. ptc. functioning as passive ptc. of BALLW; I would like the sequence better if there were a GAR following EQEWROUN)." What's always impressed me about 10:19 is the aorist ptc. PESONTA in a participial clause of indirect discourse introduced by a verb of seeing, in this instance QEWREW. QEWREW is not quite the same as hORAW or BLEPW. Louw's & Nida's category here would seem to be:

        24.14 QEWREW a ; QEAOMAI a : to observe something with continuity and attention, often with the implication that what is observed is something unusual - 'to observe, to be a spectator of, to look at.'
        QEWREW a : QEWRW TOUS OURANOUS DIHNOIGMENOUS 'I see the heavens opened' Ac 7:56.
        QEAOMAI a: hOTI TOIS QEASAMENOIS AUTON EGHGERMENON OUK EPISTEUSAN  'because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had risen' Mk 16:14.

        Then, as you note, there is a shift of focus in what Jesus says marked by the IDOU: "Take note, I have indeed given you power/authority to be untouched by Satan's minions . .  .BUT you shouldn't be happy so much about their subordination to you as by the fact that your names stand written (EGGEGRAPTAI, another 3d sg. verb with n. pl. subject!) in the heavens." Does he mean to say that TA DAIMONIA/PNEUMATA have recognized those names?

        I still think this is questionable and that it makes more sense to understand Jesus as saying, "I was envisioning Satan hurled like a bolt of lightning out of heaven" -- yet I suppose it could be understood in terms of the subordination of the DAIMONIA/PNEUMATA as related to their understanding of the implications of their loss of power.

        On the whole, I'm still more or less convinced of Conzelmann's notion of Jesus' ministry in Luke as a temporary "Satan-free" period running from the end of the Temptation until Passion Week when Satan once again gains the upper hand. Yet I will add that, for myself at least, all convictions regarding the Synoptics are "more or less."

        --

        Carl W. Conrad
        Department of Classics, Washington University
        Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
        cwconrad@... OR cwconrad@...
        WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
      • Maluflen@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/2/2000 6:23:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu writes: [Responding to Leonard: what did you think of the arguments
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 2, 2000
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          In a message dated 7/2/2000 6:23:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
          cwconrad@... writes:

          [Responding to Leonard: "what did you think of the arguments for a 3rd plural
          understanding of the main verb in 10:18?"]

          << Let me acknowledge a modicum of plausibility to it, upon a closer look.>>

          Good to hear. I don't expect more than that. After all, the versions, ancient
          and modern (beginning with Vulg.: videbam satanam..), all have translated
          with the first pers. sing. I do think, however, that the alternative reading
          should be looked at carefully before being rejected out of hand.

          << The disciples returning form their mission report that what most has
          impressed them is the subordination of TA DAIMONIA to them as they act in
          Jesus' name (as I understand the force of EN TWi ONOMATI SOU). Jesus
          replies (18): "they were having a vision (EQEWROUN impf. 3d pl.): Satan
          hurled like a stroke of lightning from heaven (PESONTA aor. pass. ptc.
          functioning as passive ptc. of BALLW; >>

          You undoubtedly meant: PESONTA aor. act. ptc.? To reflect the nuance of the
          aor. tense in English it is perhaps sufficient to render: "They watched Satan
          fall like lightning from heaven", (i.e., they were co-spectators when Satan
          fell dramatically from heaven), instead of "they watched Satan falling like
          lightning...", which would call for a present ptc. (PIPTONTA).

          << I would like the sequence better if
          there were a GAR following EQEWROUN).>>

          An interesting point. However, I think a GAR would be expected here only if
          the sentence continued a sequence of comments made by a single subject. For
          example, if Jesus had replied: "The demons are indeed subject to you; for
          (GAR) they were co-spectors when Satan fell...". Without this continuity of
          discourse, I believe a GAR is less in order, even with the meaning that
          results from reading the verb as 3rd plural.

          << What's always impressed me about
          10:19 is the aorist ptc. PESONTA in a participial clause of indirect
          discourse introduced by a verb of seeing, in this instance QEWREW. QEWREW
          is not quite the same as hORAW or BLEPW.>>

          Are you sure this is a correct syntactical analysis? I always thought
          indirect discourse necessarily required an infinitive verb form (with acc.
          subject). It is certainly close, if not identical in meaning to a sentence in
          indirect discourse that would have employed an infinitive form of the verb
          (if I am right). But I would analyze this as an alternate syntax to indirect
          discourse, with roughly the same meaning. Cf. Lk 5:2, e.g.

          <<Then, as you note, there is a shift of focus in what Jesus says marked by
          the IDOU: "Take note, I have indeed given you power/authority to be
          untouched by Satan's minions . . .BUT you shouldn't be happy so much about
          their subordination to you as by the fact that your names stand written
          (EGGEGRAPTAI, another 3d sg. verb with n. pl. subject!) in the heavens."
          Does he mean to say that TA DAIMONIA/PNEUMATA have recognized those names?>>

          Interesting suggestion. I'm not sure, but the twofold reference to heaven/the
          heavens in the passage as a whole is certainly a factor to be considered in
          its exegesis.

          <>

          Yes, but then one must probe further and ask exactly what is Luke thinking
          about here. What does he see as the precise occasion of this dramatic fall?
          What does he expect his readers to understand? Could PESONTA be an iterative
          aor., and refer to a fall of Satan that occurs each time a demon is driven
          out by the disciples? Or what else might be conveyed by the aorist nuance?

          << ..yet I suppose it could be understood in terms
          of the subordination of the DAIMONIA/PNEUMATA as related to their
          understanding of the implications of their loss of power.>>

          In which case, similar questions need to be asked as above.

          << On the whole, I'm still more or less convinced of Conzelmann's notion of
          Jesus' ministry in Luke as a temporary "Satan-free" period running from the
          end of the Temptation until Passion Week when Satan once again gains the
          upper hand. Yet I will add that, for myself at least, all convictions
          regarding the Synoptics are "more or less." >>

          Agreed.

          Leonard Maluf
        • Carl W. Conrad
          ... Yes, formally PESONTA is active, but I d prefer to call it the default form for voice; PIPTW is certainly an intransitive verb, but it (and its
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 2, 2000
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            At 9:27 AM -0400 7/2/00, Maluflen@... wrote:
            >In a message dated 7/2/2000 6:23:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            >cwconrad@... writes:
            >
            >[Responding to Leonard: "what did you think of the arguments for a 3rd plural
            >understanding of the main verb in 10:18?"]
            >
            ><< Let me acknowledge a modicum of plausibility to it, upon a closer look.>>
            >
            >Good to hear. I don't expect more than that. After all, the versions, ancient
            >and modern (beginning with Vulg.: videbam satanam..), all have translated
            >with the first pers. sing. I do think, however, that the alternative reading
            >should be looked at carefully before being rejected out of hand.
            >
            > << The disciples returning form their mission report that what most has
            > impressed them is the subordination of TA DAIMONIA to them as they act in
            > Jesus' name (as I understand the force of EN TWi ONOMATI SOU). Jesus
            > replies (18): "they were having a vision (EQEWROUN impf. 3d pl.): Satan
            > hurled like a stroke of lightning from heaven (PESONTA aor. pass. ptc.
            > functioning as passive ptc. of BALLW; >>
            >
            >You undoubtedly meant: PESONTA aor. act. ptc.? To reflect the nuance of the
            >aor. tense in English it is perhaps sufficient to render: "They watched Satan
            >fall like lightning from heaven", (i.e., they were co-spectators when Satan
            >fell dramatically from heaven), instead of "they watched Satan falling like
            >lightning...", which would call for a present ptc. (PIPTONTA).

            Yes, "formally" PESONTA is active, but I'd prefer to call it the default
            form for voice; PIPTW is certainly an intransitive verb, but it (and its
            compounds) does function for passive to BALLW (and its compounds).

            ><< I would like the sequence better if
            > there were a GAR following EQEWROUN).>>
            >
            >An interesting point. However, I think a GAR would be expected here only if
            >the sentence continued a sequence of comments made by a single subject. For
            >example, if Jesus had replied: "The demons are indeed subject to you; for
            >(GAR) they were co-spectors when Satan fell...". Without this continuity of
            >discourse, I believe a GAR is less in order, even with the meaning that
            >results from reading the verb as 3rd plural.

            On the contrary; GAR is frequently used in a reply to another in the sense,
            "Yes, that's so, because ..."

            ><< What's always impressed me about
            > 10:19 is the aorist ptc. PESONTA in a participial clause of indirect
            > discourse introduced by a verb of seeing, in this instance QEWREW. QEWREW
            > is not quite the same as hORAW or BLEPW.>>
            >
            >Are you sure this is a correct syntactical analysis? I always thought
            >indirect discourse necessarily required an infinitive verb form (with acc.
            >subject). It is certainly close, if not identical in meaning to a sentence in
            >indirect discourse that would have employed an infinitive form of the verb
            >(if I am right). But I would analyze this as an alternate syntax to indirect
            >discourse, with roughly the same meaning. Cf. Lk 5:2, e.g.

            Perhaps Koine is less regular here, but not, I think, much less; when the
            introductory verb is a verb of perception (including OIDA), the indirect
            discourse normally is with a participle rather than with an infinitive.

            ><<Then, as you note, there is a shift of focus in what Jesus says marked by
            > the IDOU: "Take note, I have indeed given you power/authority to be
            > untouched by Satan's minions . . .BUT you shouldn't be happy so much about
            > their subordination to you as by the fact that your names stand written
            > (EGGEGRAPTAI, another 3d sg. verb with n. pl. subject!) in the heavens."
            > Does he mean to say that TA DAIMONIA/PNEUMATA have recognized those names?>>
            >
            >Interesting suggestion. I'm not sure, but the twofold reference to heaven/the
            >heavens in the passage as a whole is certainly a factor to be considered in
            >its exegesis.
            >
            > <>
            >
            >Yes, but then one must probe further and ask exactly what is Luke thinking
            >about here. What does he see as the precise occasion of this dramatic fall?
            >What does he expect his readers to understand? Could PESONTA be an iterative
            >aor., and refer to a fall of Satan that occurs each time a demon is driven
            >out by the disciples? Or what else might be conveyed by the aorist nuance?

            "Iterative" aorist? No, rather, if I'm right about the indirect discourse
            with participle after verb of perception, then PESONTA refers to a single
            complete act. "I was (they were) witnessing the fall/ejection of Satan."

            > << ..yet I suppose it could be understood in terms
            > of the subordination of the DAIMONIA/PNEUMATA as related to their
            > understanding of the implications of their loss of power.>>
            >
            >In which case, similar questions need to be asked as above.
            >
            ><< On the whole, I'm still more or less convinced of Conzelmann's notion of
            > Jesus' ministry in Luke as a temporary "Satan-free" period running from the
            > end of the Temptation until Passion Week when Satan once again gains the
            > upper hand. Yet I will add that, for myself at least, all convictions
            > regarding the Synoptics are "more or less." >>
            >
            >Agreed.
            >
            >Leonard Maluf

            --

            Carl W. Conrad
            Department of Classics, Washington University
            Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
            cwconrad@... OR cwconrad@...
            WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
          • Maluflen@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/2/2000 2:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu writes: [Responding to Leonard who wrote] An interesting point.
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 2, 2000
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              In a message dated 7/2/2000 2:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              cwconrad@... writes:

              [Responding to Leonard who wrote]
              << >An interesting point. However, I think a GAR would be expected here only
              if
              >the sentence continued a sequence of comments made by a single subject. For
              >example, if Jesus had replied: "The demons are indeed subject to you; for
              >(GAR) they were co-spectors when Satan fell...". Without this continuity of
              >discourse, I believe a GAR is less in order, even with the meaning that
              >results from reading the verb as 3rd plural.

              << On the contrary; GAR is frequently used in a reply to another in the sense,
              "Yes, that's so, because ...">>

              Pardon me for insisting here, but my whole point was that in this statement
              of Jesus, there is nothing equivalent to an opening "Yes, that's so,
              [because...]". It still seems odd to me to imagine a GAR simply slipped into
              its normal postpositive position in Lk 10:18 as it stands. I would be
              delighted if you could cite an example (perhaps from classical sources,
              because I doubt one exists in the NT) that would illustrate the validity of
              what you are saying here.

              Leonard Maluf
            • Maluflen@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/2/2000 2:48:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu writes:
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 2, 2000
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                In a message dated 7/2/2000 2:48:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                cwconrad@... writes:

                << Perhaps Koine is less regular here, but not, I think, much less; when the
                introductory verb is a verb of perception (including OIDA), the indirect
                discourse normally is with a participle rather than with an infinitive.>>


                Thanks Carl for this. I must acknowledge that I had completely forgotten this
                rule. But now that you remind me, I can recall numerous NT instances of this
                syntax.

                Leonard Maluf
              • Carl W. Conrad
                ... I guess that what I was thinking of with the GAR was the rather standard usage of it in stichomythia in classical Attic grammar, where the postpositive GAR
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 3, 2000
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                  At 8:42 PM -0400 7/2/00, Maluflen@... wrote:
                  >In a message dated 7/2/2000 2:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  >cwconrad@... writes:
                  >
                  >[Responding to Leonard who wrote]
                  ><< >An interesting point. However, I think a GAR would be expected here only
                  >if
                  > >the sentence continued a sequence of comments made by a single subject. For
                  > >example, if Jesus had replied: "The demons are indeed subject to you; for
                  > >(GAR) they were co-spectors when Satan fell...". Without this continuity of
                  > >discourse, I believe a GAR is less in order, even with the meaning that
                  > >results from reading the verb as 3rd plural.
                  >
                  ><< On the contrary; GAR is frequently used in a reply to another in the sense,
                  > "Yes, that's so, because ...">>
                  >
                  >Pardon me for insisting here, but my whole point was that in this statement
                  >of Jesus, there is nothing equivalent to an opening "Yes, that's so,
                  >[because...]". It still seems odd to me to imagine a GAR simply slipped into
                  >its normal postpositive position in Lk 10:18 as it stands. I would be
                  >delighted if you could cite an example (perhaps from classical sources,
                  >because I doubt one exists in the NT) that would illustrate the validity of
                  >what you are saying here.

                  I guess that what I was thinking of with the GAR was the rather standard
                  usage of it in stichomythia in classical Attic grammar, where the
                  postpositive GAR indicates a causal relationship between the response and
                  the question posed by an interlocutor in the immediately preceding line. I
                  don't really think I could put my fingers on an example of what I was
                  arguing in the case of EQEWROUN.

                  --

                  Carl W. Conrad
                  Department of Classics, Washington University
                  Summer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
                  cwconrad@... OR cwconrad@...
                  WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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