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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: The Critical Edition of Q

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 5/2/2000 3:17:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yuku@globalserve.net writes:
    Message 1 of 10 , May 2, 2000
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      In a message dated 5/2/2000 3:17:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      yuku@... writes:

      << You may recall
      that I recently posted a long post where I demonstrated that in the case of
      the anointing scene Lk seems to preserve the earliest version. Hardly seems
      like this derived from Mk/Mt >>

      I recall your attempt to demonstrate this point, but I also recall being more
      than usually unimpressed by the validity of your argument. You ignore, for
      one thing, the arguments of scholars that show this story to be secondarily
      adapted by Luke to serve as an illustration of his theology of forgiveness of
      sins by Jesus predicted by John the Baptist, who, in Luke's view (contra
      Matt) shows John preaching a baptism of repentance (administered by himself)
      unto (eis) the remission of sins (effected by Jesus) (see the setting of the
      story of the woman-sinner in Lk 7).

      By the way, this alternative view of the history of this story reveals a
      serious ambiguity in your final statement and what it is taken to imply:
      "Hardly seems like this derived from Mk/Mt". You apparently conclude from
      this that Luke's version must have preceded Matthew's (or Mark's, or both).
      This does not necessarily follow at all. A later version, dependent for
      substance on an earlier version, can very well nevertheless seem, in other
      respects, not to "derive" from the earlier one. It all depends on how
      creative an author is at work with the material in question. In my judgment,
      the story of the woman as told in Lk 7 clearly reflects a theology of
      forgiveness of sins through the agency of Jesus that marks it, together with
      many other passages of Lk and Acts, as secondary to the Gospel of Matthew at
      least, and contemporary with the redactive activity of Luke himself.

      Leonard Maluf
    • Yuri Kuchinsky
      ... of ... seems ... more ... for ... secondarily ... forgiveness of ... himself) ... the ... both). ... other ... Yes, Leonard, it can, but generally, as you
      Message 2 of 10 , May 3, 2000
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        ----------
        > From: Maluflen@...
        > To: Synoptic-L@...
        > Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: The Critical Edition of Q
        > Date: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 4:10 PM
        >
        > In a message dated 5/2/2000 3:17:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
        > yuku@... writes:
        >
        > << You may recall
        > that I recently posted a long post where I demonstrated that in the case
        of
        > the anointing scene Lk seems to preserve the earliest version. Hardly
        seems
        > like this derived from Mk/Mt >>
        >
        > I recall your attempt to demonstrate this point, but I also recall being
        more
        > than usually unimpressed by the validity of your argument. You ignore,
        for
        > one thing, the arguments of scholars that show this story to be
        secondarily
        > adapted by Luke to serve as an illustration of his theology of
        forgiveness of
        > sins by Jesus predicted by John the Baptist, who, in Luke's view (contra
        > Matt) shows John preaching a baptism of repentance (administered by
        himself)
        > unto (eis) the remission of sins (effected by Jesus) (see the setting of
        the
        > story of the woman-sinner in Lk 7).
        >
        > By the way, this alternative view of the history of this story reveals a
        > serious ambiguity in your final statement and what it is taken to imply:
        > "Hardly seems like this derived from Mk/Mt". You apparently conclude from

        > this that Luke's version must have preceded Matthew's (or Mark's, or
        both).
        > This does not necessarily follow at all. A later version, dependent for
        > substance on an earlier version, can very well nevertheless seem, in
        other
        > respects, not to "derive" from the earlier one.

        Yes, Leonard, it can, but generally, as you must admit, a later version,
        dependent for substance on an earlier version, does betray its derivation
        from the earlier one.

        > It all depends on how
        > creative an author is at work with the material in question. In my
        judgment,
        > the story of the woman as told in Lk 7 clearly reflects a theology of
        > forgiveness of sins through the agency of Jesus that marks it, together
        with
        > many other passages of Lk and Acts, as secondary to the Gospel of Matthew
        at
        > least, and contemporary with the redactive activity of Luke himself.

        So you think this story is secondarily adapted by Luke to serve as an
        illustration of his theology of forgiveness of sins by Jesus predicted by
        John the Baptist?

        Well, Leonard, lots of things are possible, but are they probable? After
        all, it's also possible that Boston in England derived its name from
        Boston, Massachusetts?

        Besides, is your counter-proposal really falsifiable, in the Popperian
        sense? How would one falsify your theory? In other words, how would one set
        about disproving that this story is secondarily adapted by Luke to serve as
        an illustration of his theology of forgiveness of sins by Jesus predicted
        by John the Baptist?

        Let me remind you that those theories that are not falsifiable are
        generally not considered scientific.

        And you have the following points still to deal with,

        - anointing seems like an intrusion in the text of Mt/Mk
        - this scene contains some clearly late features in Mt/Mk

        And you're not even beginning to deal with all the issues associated with
        the Pepysian Gospels as yet.

        Regards,

        Yuri.

        Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

        Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated

        The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
        equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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