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Re: the fundamental solution

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  • Jim Deardorff
    ... Hi Brian, The reason we can each conclude oppositely on that verse in 1 Cor is that I agree with those who believe it is a later addition (redaction) to
    Message 1 of 4 , May 12, 1998
      At 10:32 AM 5/12/98 +0100, Brian E. Wilson wrote:
      >Jim Deardorff wrote (SNIP)
      >
      >>How do we really know that Jesus taught "forgiveness of sins"? This
      >>could well have been the idea of Paul, successfully communicated to the
      >>early churches and hence later built into the first Gospel and thence
      >>into the subsequent Gospels.

      >How do we really know that Jesus did not teach "forgiveness of sins"?
      >This could well have happened. Paul says that he received a tradition
      >which went back to Jesus himself. See for instance I Corinthians
      >11:23-26. This Jesus tradition, acknowledged by Paul as originating from
      >Jesus, shows Jesus teaching the "forgiveness of sins". This tradition
      >could have been transmitted to Paul and to the writers of the gospels.
      >The tradition could even have been part of a Jesus tradition document of
      >which Paul handed a copy to the Christians at Corinth, on one feasible
      >interpretation of I Corinthians 11:23a.
      >
      >The two radically different alternatives indicated in the separate
      >paragraphs above cannot both be true. I would suggest that it all
      >depends on which solution to the synoptic problem is adopted. Solving
      >the synoptic problem affects theology. That is partly why it is worth
      >studying the synoptic problem.

      Hi Brian,

      The reason we can each conclude oppositely on that verse in 1 Cor is that I
      agree with those who believe it is a later addition (redaction) to this
      epistle. I expressed exegetical reasons for believing so some time back.

      It does seem that Paul knew a little bit about Jesus' minor teachings,
      however. This was discussed in the resourceful article by Tuckett "1
      Corinthians and Q" (JBL 102 (1983) 607-619). His main thrust, though, was
      to investigate if these teachings, known early, were in Q. They tended not
      to be, and thus his study did not lend any definite support to the Q hypothesis.

      Jim Deardorff
      Corvallis, Oregon
      E-mail: deardorj@...
      Home page: http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/index.htm
    • Jim Deardorff
      ... Thanks for setting me straight on that. I had forgotten that Eph 1:7 and a few other such verses in all probability do not stem from Paul. So as I
      Message 2 of 4 , May 12, 1998
        At 10:51 AM 5/12/98 -0500, Edgar Krentz wrote:
        >>Jim Deardorff wrote (SNIP)
        >>
        >>>How do we really know that Jesus taught "forgiveness of sins"? This
        >>>could well have been the idea of Paul, successfully communicated to the
        >>>early churches and hence later built into the first Gospel and thence
        >>>into the subsequent Gospels.
        >
        >BRIAN WILSON gave one good answer. I would only supplementwhat he said.
        >
        >The authentic Pauline letters do not teach the forgivenss of sins. Paul
        >almost alwyas uses hAMARTIA in the singular. Only 1 Cor 15 (4 times in the
        >citation of a pre-pauline formula and references back to it) and Romans 4:7
        >(citation of an OT passage) use sin in the plural.
        >
        >Paul regards sin as power that holds human in slavery through the NOMOS.
        >You do not forgive a power; instead you rescue by bringin in a great er
        >power (so Romans 6) or you redeem, i.e. buy free.
        >
        >Paul is NOT the source of the concept of the forgiveness of sins. If it is
        >to be found anywhere, it is in the Jewish sacrificial system, the sin
        >offering or Yom Kippur.

        Thanks for setting me straight on that. I had forgotten that Eph 1:7 and a
        few other such verses in all probability do not stem from Paul.

        So as I understand it now, the "God's forgiveness of mankind's sins" concept
        entered into Christianity through the effect of its Jewish base upon the
        writer of the first Gospel, if it did not creep into the churches from the
        "OT" source earlier. But I don't seem to see it in Ignatius.

        Jim Deardorff
        Corvallis, Oregon
        E-mail: deardorj@...
        Home page: http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/index.htm
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