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Re: [Synoptic-L] assumptions about Shem-Tob's Hebrew Mt

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  • Yuri Kuchinsky
    ... text ... translation ... No, Moshe, actually Petersen appears to be saying: Gospel Text + Harmony Text - Gospel Text - ST Petersen is speaking about a
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 29, 2000
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      > From: Moshe Shulman <mshulman@...>
      > To: Synoptic-L@...
      > Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] assumptions about Shem-Tob's Hebrew Mt
      > Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:49 PM
      >
      > At 01:52 PM 02/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:
      > >> Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
      > >"113 .. It is apparently from this harmony-influenced separate gospel
      text
      > >that both Velasquez's Arabic translation and Shem-Tob's Hebrew
      translation
      > >of Matthew derive."
      > >I take this to say two things, viz. that (1) HMt was translated from a
      > >separate text of Matthew, and also (2) that this version of Mt was
      > >influenced by a gospel harmony of some sort.

      > Yuri be seems to be saying:
      >
      > Harmony Text -> Gospel Text -> ST

      No, Moshe, actually Petersen appears to be saying:

      Gospel Text + Harmony Text -> Gospel Text -> ST

      Petersen is speaking about a "harmony-influenced separate gospel text", but
      he's not speaking about a "harmony-based separate gospel text".

      > Now it appears that he is thinking that there was a gospel text of some
      > sort, which was first modified by the Harmony Texts. (I woudl assume we
      > would then have to call this new text a harmony text also.)
      >
      > >> has NO evidence to support it. Moshe's argument not only makes sense
      > >> historically but also doesn't destroy what can be gleaned from the
      text
      > >itself.
      > >But I'm not making any conclusion, Larry, so how can there be any holes
      in
      > >it? What I'm saying is that I don't know the full history of HMt.
      >
      > But you are missing the point. Your theory MUST include this history. You
      > have to be able to explain how the text on which ST is based came into
      > existance, and that requires a history. Petersen (to which I have argued
      in
      > agreement) says that we need to look at the many texts that existed in
      the
      > 14th and 13th century, which were so varied as to give us a basis for a
      > theory of this text on which ST was based.

      Well, in my previous long post, I certainly did look in some detail at one
      text "that existed in the 14th and 13th century" -- the Liege DT. And
      Petersen's hypothesis was not confirmed.

      > >At the same time, I suggest that the following version is not
      impossible.
      > >According to separate and numerous accounts of Church fathers (Papias,
      > >Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Jerome, etc.) a Hebrew version
      of
      > >Mt existed among Jewish-Christians well into the 5th century. Some
      accounts
      > >indicate that it was "heretical" (e.g. according to Epiphanius, he knew
      of
      > >a version of Hebrew Mt that was "incomplete, corrupt, and mutilated" --
      > >Panarion 30.13.2). So what I'm saying is that it is possible that a
      version
      > >of Hebrew Mt was transmitted past 5th century and into the middle ages
      by a
      > >group of Jewish-Christians. This is what Shem-Tob received and included
      > >into his Eben Bohan.
      >
      > The problem is that there were no Jewish Christians to pass it on. The
      > church was not kind to heretics. This mythical group does nto help when
      > historical fact argues against it.

      So perhaps HMT should be seen as evidence that there were Jewish Christians
      to pass it on. And I believe Jewish-Christians were known in the east well
      past 5th c. Can you claim with assurance that there were no
      Jewish-Christians anywhere in the world past 5th c?

      Regards,

      Yuri.

      Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

      Biblical history list http://www.egroups.com/group/loisy - unmoderated

      The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
      equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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