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Re: codices from the beginning

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  • TonyProst@aol.com
    Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use. Regards, Tony
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
      Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius
      Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.

      Regards,
      Tony Prost
      All Nonnos All DAy
      http://members.aol.com/tonyprost/index.html
    • Jeremy Duff
      ... First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192 (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for jottings.
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
        At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
        >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius
        >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
        >
        >Regards,
        >Tony Prost
        >All Nonnos All DAy

        First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
        (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
        jottings.

        Jeremy


        =========================================
        Jeremy Duff
        Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
        Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.

        EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
        Phone: 01865-274218
      • Jeremy Duff
        Papyrus codices came first, on the whole, not vellum. I wouldn t be surprised if some of the earliest extant codices are the biblical ones from the second
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
          Papyrus codices came first, on the whole, not vellum.

          I wouldn't be surprised if some of the earliest extant codices are the
          biblical ones from the second century (papyrus), though I may well be wrong.
          If you want to know try Turner, The Typology of the Early Codex (1977).

          Jeremy

          At 13:27 01/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
          >An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
          >together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
          >am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
          >exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
          >codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.
          >
          >Jack
          >
          >Jeremy Duff wrote:
          >
          >> At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
          >> >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe
          Julius
          >> >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
          >> >
          >> >Regards,
          >> >Tony Prost
          >> >All Nonnos All DAy
          >>
          >> First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
          >> (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
          >> jottings.
          >>
          >> Jeremy
          >>
          >> =========================================
          >> Jeremy Duff
          >> Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
          >> Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.
          >>
          >> EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
          >> Phone: 01865-274218
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Brian E. Wilson
          Jack Kilmon wrote - ... Jack, It is vitally important to distinguish codices used for notes, accounts, documentary records and the like, from codices used for
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
            Jack Kilmon wrote -
            >
            >An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
            >together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
            >am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
            >exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
            >codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.
            >
            Jack,
            It is vitally important to distinguish codices used for notes,
            accounts, documentary records and the like, from codices used for books.
            The interesting question is not how or when the codex format was first
            used. We know that it was used several centuries BCE. For instance we
            have surviving wooden codices with wages accounts from mid third century
            BCE of expenses incurred on a journey in Lower Egypt. The tablets, still
            with writing on the wax, are held in the Petrie Museum, University
            College, London, UK.

            Some wooden codices had as many as ten wooden tablets bound together.

            The earliest extant vellum codex is P. Oxy. 30 and is of a book which is
            usually given the title "de Bellis Macedonicis". It was written about
            100 CE. It is in Latin, and thought to have been written in Rome.

            The earliest extant fragment of a papyrus codex book is P52, the Rylands
            Papyrus of part of the Gospel of John. This was written between 100 and
            125 CE, according to current opinions amongst papyrologists (they used
            to say it was written about 125 CE, so they have adjusted their mean
            estimate by about 12 years in recent research on this.)

            The material of which a codex book was made may not be terribly relevant
            to when and where the codex book originated, however. The most
            significant piece of information is that virtually all Christian books
            in Greek were written on codices, whereas virtually all non-Christian
            books were written on rolls, for the first two and a half centuries CE.
            Something very major must have happened early in the origins of
            Christianity to bring about such widespread use of the codex for early
            Christian books written in Greek.

            Best wishes,
            BRIAN WILSON

            E-MAIL : brian@... *** HOMEPAGE RECENTLY UPDATED ***
            SNAILMAIL ; Rev B. E. Wilson, http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
            10 York Close, Godmanchester,
            Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK *** SEE HOMEPAGE FOR FIRST DRAFT OF PAPER ***
          • Jack Kilmon
            An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I am interested in the what ms
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
              An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
              together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
              am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
              exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
              codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.

              Jack

              Jeremy Duff wrote:

              > At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
              > >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius
              > >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
              > >
              > >Regards,
              > >Tony Prost
              > >All Nonnos All DAy
              >
              > First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
              > (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
              > jottings.
              >
              > Jeremy
              >
              > =========================================
              > Jeremy Duff
              > Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
              > Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.
              >
              > EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
              > Phone: 01865-274218
            • Jack Kilmon
              In my understanding, after the wax tablets, the term was applied to books of this format made of papyrus, vellum, or parchment. Although papyrus usually
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
                In my understanding, after the wax tablets, the term was applied to books of
                this format made of papyrus, vellum, or
                parchment. Although papyrus usually appeared in the form of a scroll, and
                parchment and vellum in the form of the codex, there was a brief intermediate
                stage, the papyrus codex. This came at a time when parchment was not yet fully
                accepted, partly because it was thought to be a somewhat vulgar material, and
                partly because, when the codex was new, it was not realized that papyrus was not
                really suitable to that format.

                Jack


                Jeremy Duff wrote:

                > Papyrus codices came first, on the whole, not vellum.
                >
                > I wouldn't be surprised if some of the earliest extant codices are the
                > biblical ones from the second century (papyrus), though I may well be wrong.
                > If you want to know try Turner, The Typology of the Early Codex (1977).
                >
                > Jeremy
                >
                > At 13:27 01/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
                > >An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
                > >together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
                > >am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
                > >exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
                > >codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.
                > >
                > >Jack
                > >
                > >Jeremy Duff wrote:
                > >
                > >> At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
                > >> >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe
                > Julius
                > >> >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
                > >> >
                > >> >Regards,
                > >> >Tony Prost
                > >> >All Nonnos All DAy
                > >>
                > >> First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
                > >> (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
                > >> jottings.
                > >>
                > >> Jeremy
                > >>
                > >> =========================================
                > >> Jeremy Duff
                > >> Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
                > >> Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.
                > >>
                > >> EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
                > >> Phone: 01865-274218
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Graham Hamer
                ... in a ... for ... lost, but ... of a ... greater ... Does ... be ... last ... answers to ... C S C Williams wrote If the Christians already used the codex
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 8, 1999
                  Mark Goodacre wrote:
                  > I wonder if Brian was referring specifically to the idea of the last page
                  in a
                  > codex being lost? Certainly the idea of a lost ending is old. Streeter,
                  for
                  > example, thinks that the earliest copy was accidentally mutilated or
                  lost, but
                  > he seems to be imagining a scroll, _Four Gospels_, p. 338: "the two ends
                  of a
                  > roll would always be the most exposed to damage; the beginning ran the
                  greater
                  > risk, but, in a book rolled from both ends, the conclusion was not safe".
                  Does
                  > anyone know how much earlier than Streeter the idea goes? Surely it must
                  be
                  > much older than him? And is Roberts the first to propose that it was the
                  last
                  > leaf of a codex that got lost? It would be interesting to know the
                  answers to
                  > these questions -- can anyone oblige?
                  >
                  C S C Williams wrote "If the Christians already used the codex or book
                  form for their gospels during the first century, as Mr C H Roberts believes
                  (JTS, XL, 1939, 253ff) then the last page could easily have been torn
                  away." (Alterations to the Text of the Synoptic Gospels and Acts, Oxford,
                  1951, page 44). This looks like Williams (either consciously or
                  unconsciously) may have been the source of Roberts' suggestion in his book
                  on the codex.

                  Graham
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