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Re: codices from the beginning

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  • Graham Hamer
    Brian Wilson wrote: The existence of Q in the Two Document Hypothesis is pure ... Brian, I am really not doing this to be awkward - but if you said that
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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      Brian Wilson wrote:

      The existence of "Q" in the Two Document Hypothesis is pure
      > speculation - a hypothetical document since is not attested by early
      > writers and since no copy of it has survived. On your assumptions, I
      > could say that "Q" is "speculation that borders on fantasy, and quite
      > fun since it is totally unverifiable".

      Brian,

      I am really not doing this to be awkward - but if you said that about Q I
      would agree with you entirely. Maybe I'm not cut out for this NT stuff but
      I could not believe in Q when I first started studying the gospels at the
      end of the 1960's and I still can't understand why anyone finds the
      arguments in any way convincing now. One effect of the supposition that Q
      existed has tended to blind us to the possibility that the synoptics were
      written much earlier than is usually supposed because we have to "make
      room" for Q before Matt and Luke. I take your general point about
      verification, though.


      > Perhaps you would like to put forward your own ideas on the origin of
      > the codex book, and any link this may have with the synoptic gospels?
      >
      >
      I am open to the view that the popularisation of the codex to carry
      substantial test was closely linked with the spread of Christianity.
      However, I think there is simply insufficient evidence to go beyond this.
      If you look at the number of "coulds" and "possibilities" that Professor
      Millard uses to link Hebrew Logia, Papias, Matthew, tax collectors and
      codices then I really don't think that the epithet "fantasy" is unfair.
      Mind you if I had a speculation half as pleasing as this one I would not
      hesitate to share it with Synoptic-L.

      Kind regards,

      Graham
    • TonyProst@aol.com
      Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use. Regards, Tony
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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        Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius
        Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.

        Regards,
        Tony Prost
        All Nonnos All DAy
        http://members.aol.com/tonyprost/index.html
      • Jeremy Duff
        ... First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192 (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for jottings.
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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          At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
          >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius
          >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
          >
          >Regards,
          >Tony Prost
          >All Nonnos All DAy

          First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
          (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
          jottings.

          Jeremy


          =========================================
          Jeremy Duff
          Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
          Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.

          EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
          Phone: 01865-274218
        • Jeremy Duff
          Papyrus codices came first, on the whole, not vellum. I wouldn t be surprised if some of the earliest extant codices are the biblical ones from the second
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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            Papyrus codices came first, on the whole, not vellum.

            I wouldn't be surprised if some of the earliest extant codices are the
            biblical ones from the second century (papyrus), though I may well be wrong.
            If you want to know try Turner, The Typology of the Early Codex (1977).

            Jeremy

            At 13:27 01/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
            >An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
            >together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
            >am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
            >exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
            >codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.
            >
            >Jack
            >
            >Jeremy Duff wrote:
            >
            >> At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
            >> >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe
            Julius
            >> >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
            >> >
            >> >Regards,
            >> >Tony Prost
            >> >All Nonnos All DAy
            >>
            >> First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
            >> (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
            >> jottings.
            >>
            >> Jeremy
            >>
            >> =========================================
            >> Jeremy Duff
            >> Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
            >> Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.
            >>
            >> EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
            >> Phone: 01865-274218
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Brian E. Wilson
            Jack Kilmon wrote - ... Jack, It is vitally important to distinguish codices used for notes, accounts, documentary records and the like, from codices used for
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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              Jack Kilmon wrote -
              >
              >An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
              >together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
              >am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
              >exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
              >codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.
              >
              Jack,
              It is vitally important to distinguish codices used for notes,
              accounts, documentary records and the like, from codices used for books.
              The interesting question is not how or when the codex format was first
              used. We know that it was used several centuries BCE. For instance we
              have surviving wooden codices with wages accounts from mid third century
              BCE of expenses incurred on a journey in Lower Egypt. The tablets, still
              with writing on the wax, are held in the Petrie Museum, University
              College, London, UK.

              Some wooden codices had as many as ten wooden tablets bound together.

              The earliest extant vellum codex is P. Oxy. 30 and is of a book which is
              usually given the title "de Bellis Macedonicis". It was written about
              100 CE. It is in Latin, and thought to have been written in Rome.

              The earliest extant fragment of a papyrus codex book is P52, the Rylands
              Papyrus of part of the Gospel of John. This was written between 100 and
              125 CE, according to current opinions amongst papyrologists (they used
              to say it was written about 125 CE, so they have adjusted their mean
              estimate by about 12 years in recent research on this.)

              The material of which a codex book was made may not be terribly relevant
              to when and where the codex book originated, however. The most
              significant piece of information is that virtually all Christian books
              in Greek were written on codices, whereas virtually all non-Christian
              books were written on rolls, for the first two and a half centuries CE.
              Something very major must have happened early in the origins of
              Christianity to bring about such widespread use of the codex for early
              Christian books written in Greek.

              Best wishes,
              BRIAN WILSON

              E-MAIL : brian@... *** HOMEPAGE RECENTLY UPDATED ***
              SNAILMAIL ; Rev B. E. Wilson, http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
              10 York Close, Godmanchester,
              Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK *** SEE HOMEPAGE FOR FIRST DRAFT OF PAPER ***
            • Jack Kilmon
              An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I am interested in the what ms
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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                An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
                together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
                am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
                exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
                codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.

                Jack

                Jeremy Duff wrote:

                > At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
                > >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe Julius
                > >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
                > >
                > >Regards,
                > >Tony Prost
                > >All Nonnos All DAy
                >
                > First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
                > (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
                > jottings.
                >
                > Jeremy
                >
                > =========================================
                > Jeremy Duff
                > Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
                > Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.
                >
                > EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
                > Phone: 01865-274218
              • Jack Kilmon
                In my understanding, after the wax tablets, the term was applied to books of this format made of papyrus, vellum, or parchment. Although papyrus usually
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 1, 1999
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                  In my understanding, after the wax tablets, the term was applied to books of
                  this format made of papyrus, vellum, or
                  parchment. Although papyrus usually appeared in the form of a scroll, and
                  parchment and vellum in the form of the codex, there was a brief intermediate
                  stage, the papyrus codex. This came at a time when parchment was not yet fully
                  accepted, partly because it was thought to be a somewhat vulgar material, and
                  partly because, when the codex was new, it was not realized that papyrus was not
                  really suitable to that format.

                  Jack


                  Jeremy Duff wrote:

                  > Papyrus codices came first, on the whole, not vellum.
                  >
                  > I wouldn't be surprised if some of the earliest extant codices are the
                  > biblical ones from the second century (papyrus), though I may well be wrong.
                  > If you want to know try Turner, The Typology of the Early Codex (1977).
                  >
                  > Jeremy
                  >
                  > At 13:27 01/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
                  > >An early codex, or caudex, was essentially two wax tablets bound
                  > >together like a book, or two ivory or wooden slates with wax. I
                  > >am interested in the what ms fragment is the earliest extant
                  > >exemplar of a vellum codex and the earliest exemplar of a papyrus
                  > >codex (which apparently came later)...not necessarily biblical in nature.
                  > >
                  > >Jack
                  > >
                  > >Jeremy Duff wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> At 12:44 01/02/99 EST, you wrote:
                  > >> >Can anyone comment on the use of codex in the civilian world? I believe
                  > Julius
                  > >> >Caesar began to prefer them, and introduced them to Roman use.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >Regards,
                  > >> >Tony Prost
                  > >> >All Nonnos All DAy
                  > >>
                  > >> First reference to literature in codices is Martial Epigrams 14.184-192
                  > >> (mid-late first century AD). Beforehand (Caesar etc.) they were used for
                  > >> jottings.
                  > >>
                  > >> Jeremy
                  > >>
                  > >> =========================================
                  > >> Jeremy Duff
                  > >> Junior Research Fellow, St Cross College, Oxford
                  > >> Tutor, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.
                  > >>
                  > >> EMail: Jeremy.Duff@...
                  > >> Phone: 01865-274218
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • Graham Hamer
                  ... in a ... for ... lost, but ... of a ... greater ... Does ... be ... last ... answers to ... C S C Williams wrote If the Christians already used the codex
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 8, 1999
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                    Mark Goodacre wrote:
                    > I wonder if Brian was referring specifically to the idea of the last page
                    in a
                    > codex being lost? Certainly the idea of a lost ending is old. Streeter,
                    for
                    > example, thinks that the earliest copy was accidentally mutilated or
                    lost, but
                    > he seems to be imagining a scroll, _Four Gospels_, p. 338: "the two ends
                    of a
                    > roll would always be the most exposed to damage; the beginning ran the
                    greater
                    > risk, but, in a book rolled from both ends, the conclusion was not safe".
                    Does
                    > anyone know how much earlier than Streeter the idea goes? Surely it must
                    be
                    > much older than him? And is Roberts the first to propose that it was the
                    last
                    > leaf of a codex that got lost? It would be interesting to know the
                    answers to
                    > these questions -- can anyone oblige?
                    >
                    C S C Williams wrote "If the Christians already used the codex or book
                    form for their gospels during the first century, as Mr C H Roberts believes
                    (JTS, XL, 1939, 253ff) then the last page could easily have been torn
                    away." (Alterations to the Text of the Synoptic Gospels and Acts, Oxford,
                    1951, page 44). This looks like Williams (either consciously or
                    unconsciously) may have been the source of Roberts' suggestion in his book
                    on the codex.

                    Graham
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