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Fwd: directional non-indicator

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  • Kumo997029@aol.com
    In a message dated 99-01-13 04:48:08 EST, brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk writes:
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 16, 1999
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      In a message dated 99-01-13 04:48:08 EST, brian@... writes:

      << Subj: Re: directional non-indicator
      Date: 99-01-13 04:48:08 EST
      From: brian@... (Brian E. Wilson)
      To: Synoptic-L@...

      Tim Reynolds wrote -
      >
      >The Q1 version is significantly shorter. So we know that *if* AP is
      >involved, the direction is from F to Q1.
      >
      Tim, sorry if I am labouring the point, but no, we do not know this at
      all. I would suggest your statement should read -
      >
      >The Q1 version is significantly shorter. So we know that *if* AP is
      >involved, the direction is NOT FROM Q1 TO F.

      {*If AP is involved*, the direction is either Q1 to F or F to Q1. So if it's
      "NOT FROM Q1 TO F" it has to be F to Q1, no? Other indicators decide whether
      AP is involved at all.}

      In my view the distinction between a directional indicator and a
      directional non-indicator is by no means trivial. It seems to me that a
      great deal of synoptic criticism founders on this point. It is not at
      all easy to show that the writer of document Y used document X. Very
      often the data adduced shows *not* that the writer of document Y used X,
      but that the writer of document X did not use Y. The crucial point is
      that X not using Y is not the same as Y using X. Showing that Matthew
      did not use Luke does not show that Luke used Matthew, and so on. I have
      yet to see an argument that Luke used Matthew which does not attempt to
      use a directional non-indicator as a directional indicator.

      {Okay by me. A similar distinction will have to be drawn down the road a
      piece: X not using Y is not the same as X not *knowing* Y.}

      Best wishes,
      BRIAN WILSON

      E-MAIL: brian@... HOMEPAGE http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
      SNAILMAIL: Rev B. E. Wilson,
      10 York Close, Godmanchester,
      Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK

      {Tim}
    • Brian E. Wilson
      Tim Reynolds wrote - ... Tim, I consider this point so important that I presume to come back on this yet again. What you say is simply not true. Even if AP is
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 17, 1999
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        Tim Reynolds wrote -
        >
        >*If AP is involved*, the direction is either Q1 to F or F to Q1.
        >
        Tim,
        I consider this point so important that I presume to come back on
        this yet again. What you say is simply not true. Even if AP is involved,
        the direction is not necessarily either Q1 to F or F to Q1. The
        direction might be neither from Q1 to F, nor from F to Q1. What might
        have happened, for instance, is that F was produced by AP from X, and
        that Q1 was produced by AP from X. After all, F was not the autograph
        manuscript.

        AP is a directional NON-indicator. It indicates only that the direction
        of flow of information was NOT in a certain direction between two
        versions.

        The same is true of many patterns adduced as evidence for some synoptic
        hypotheses. It may be true (and I think it is) that there are parallel
        passages of Mark and Matthew in which Mark has more original wording
        than Matthew. What follows from this is the negative conclusion that
        Mark did not copy from Matthew. What does not follow is the positive
        conclusion that Matthew copied from Mark. The more original wording in
        Mark in some passages is a directional NON-indicator only. Even though
        the pattern is observed, it is perfectly possible that the direction of
        flow of information was neither from Matthew to Mark nor from Mark to
        Matthew. This is because the pattern observed does not rule out the
        possibility that both Mark and Matthew copied from a common documentary
        source.

        I do not know of any directional indicator which shows that Matthew
        copied from Mark. The arguments sometimes put forward for Matthew being
        dependent on Mark seem to me to confuse a directional non-indicator with
        a directional indicator.

        Best wishes,
        BRIAN WILSON

        E-MAIL : brian@... *** HOMEPAGE RECENTLY UPDATED ***
        SNAILMAIL ; Rev B. E. Wilson, http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
        10 York Close, Godmanchester,
        Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK
      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... I think that it is a useful reminder that a so-called directional indicator is really a directional non-indicator. But, what methodology would you propose
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 17, 1999
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          At 12:34 PM 1/17/99 +0000, Brian E. Wilson wrote:
          > I consider this point so important that I presume to come back on
          >this yet again.
          >[...]
          >I do not know of any directional indicator which shows that Matthew
          >copied from Mark. The arguments sometimes put forward for Matthew being
          >dependent on Mark seem to me to confuse a directional non-indicator with
          >a directional indicator.

          I think that it is a useful reminder that a so-called directional
          indicator is really a directional non-indicator. But, what
          methodology would you propose to advance from this point to a
          conclusion?

          For example, let us assume that there is what people (improperly) call
          directional indicators in favor of Mk --> Lk, that is, that Luke is
          dependent on Mark.

          As you ably point out, the direct evidence does not show Mk --> Lk,
          only that Lk --> Mk is unlikely (or Lk -/-> Mk). This leaves one of
          two possibilities:

          1. Mk --> Lk
          2. Mk <-- X --> Lk

          By what method are we entitled to conclude 1 (direct dependence) or
          2 (indirect dependence)?

          Stephen Carlson
          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
          "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
        • Brian E. Wilson
          Stephen Carlson wrote - ... Stephen, I agree with your very clear analysis above. Your question at the end is the 64,000 dollar one, I would suggest. I think
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 18, 1999
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            Stephen Carlson wrote -
            >
            >I think that it is a useful reminder that a so-called directional
            >indicator is really a directional non-indicator. But, what
            >methodology would you propose to advance from this point to a
            >conclusion?
            >
            >For example, let us assume that there is what people (improperly) call
            >directional indicators in favor of Mk --> Lk, that is, that Luke is
            >dependent on Mark.
            >
            >As you ably point out, the direct evidence does not show Mk --> Lk,
            >only that Lk --> Mk is unlikely (or Lk -/-> Mk). This leaves one of
            >two possibilities:
            >
            >1. Mk --> Lk
            >2. Mk <-- X --> Lk
            >
            >By what method are we entitled to conclude 1 (direct dependence) or
            >2 (indirect dependence)?
            >
            Stephen,
            I agree with your very clear analysis above. Your question at
            the end is the "64,000 dollar" one, I would suggest.

            I think we should put forward and test one synoptic hypothesis at a
            time. Suppose we posit the Farrer Hypothesis, in which Mk-->Lk. To test
            this we should list all the patterns of similarity and difference of
            wording and order of material in the synoptic gospels that we can find.
            If the Farrer Hypothesis fits well each of these patterns, then it is to
            be accepted. If it does not, then it is to be rejected. In other words,
            the conclusion that Mk-->Lk is obtained only by testing a "complete"
            hypothesis like the one put forward by Farrer which includes this
            linkage. I see no way of showing Mk-->Lk without setting this within a
            synoptic hypothesis which sets out the supposed links between the three
            synoptic gospels and their sources, and then testing the hypothesis as a
            whole.

            If we put forward the Proto-Mark Hypothesis in which Mk-/->Lk, then
            again we can test the "complete" hypothesis by listing all the synoptic
            patterns we know and testing whether this hypothesis fits well all the
            observed patterns. But again, the supposed non-linkage Mk-/->Lk has to
            be incorporated in a "complete" synoptic hypothesis (especially as it is
            the absence of a link!), and the hypothesis as a whole tested against
            all the observed synoptic patterns.

            I am working on a paper I hope to give at the International Meeting of
            SBL in Finland in July, in the Gospels section. This paper is basically
            about five patterns of duality which I think I can show are incompatible
            with the Two Document, Farrer and Griesbach Hypotheses, but which my
            Logia Translation Hypothesis fits well. I think these patterns are
            directional non-indicators which show that X-/->Y where X and Y are any
            two synoptic gospels. If I put the first draft of this paper on my
            homepage in a few weeks time, maybe anyone interested might like to
            write to me (either off-list or on Synoptic-L as preferred), and
            criticize this.

            Best wishes,
            BRIAN WILSON

            E-MAIL : brian@... *** HOMEPAGE RECENTLY UPDATED ***
            SNAILMAIL ; Rev B. E. Wilson, http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk
            10 York Close, Godmanchester,
            Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK
          • Kumo997029@aol.com
            In a message dated 99-01-17 07:38:52 EST, brian@TwoNH.demon.co.uk writes: ... Tim, I consider this point so important that I presume to come back on this
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 18, 1999
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              In a message dated 99-01-17 07:38:52 EST, brian@... writes:

              << >
              >*If AP is involved*, the direction is either Q1 to F or F to Q1.
              >
              Tim,
              I consider this point so important that I presume to come back on
              this yet again. What you say is simply not true. Even if AP is involved,
              the direction is not necessarily either Q1 to F or F to Q1. The
              direction might be neither from Q1 to F, nor from F to Q1. What might
              have happened, for instance, is that F was produced by AP from X, and
              that Q1 was produced by AP from X.

              {Theoretical models of any desired degree of complexity can be built by
              introducing hypothetical lost texts. One recalls Ewald's Nine-Document
              Hypothesis. But if the situation can be satisfactorily derived using only the
              texts at hand, parsimony favors that derivation.

              {Occam's Razor is of course only a rule of thumb. Perhaps something *could*
              have happened in a simple way but *actually* happened in a complicated way.
              So I can agree with you in principle. Is that okay?}

              After all, F was not the autograph
              manuscript.

              {What would the Folio editors have used but Shakespeare's manuscripts?}

              AP is a directional NON-indicator. It indicates only that the direction
              of flow of information was NOT in a certain direction between two
              versions.

              The same is true of many patterns adduced as evidence for some synoptic
              hypotheses. It may be true (and I think it is) that there are parallel
              passages of Mark and Matthew in which Mark has more original wording
              than Matthew. What follows from this is the negative conclusion that
              Mark did not copy from Matthew. What does not follow is the positive
              conclusion that Matthew copied from Mark. The more original wording in
              Mark in some passages is a directional NON-indicator only. Even though
              the pattern is observed, it is perfectly possible that the direction of
              flow of information was neither from Matthew to Mark nor from Mark to
              Matthew. This is because the pattern observed does not rule out the
              possibility that both Mark and Matthew copied from a common documentary
              source.

              I do not know of any directional indicator which shows that Matthew
              copied from Mark. The arguments sometimes put forward for Matthew being
              dependent on Mark seem to me to confuse a directional non-indicator with
              a directional indicator.

              Best wishes,
              BRIAN WILSON

              {Tim}
              >>
            • Kumo997029@aol.com
              In a message dated 99-01-17 13:28:39 EST, scarlson@mindspring.com writes:
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 18, 1999
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                In a message dated 99-01-17 13:28:39 EST, scarlson@... writes:

                << Subj: Re: directional non-indicator
                Date: 99-01-17 13:28:39 EST
                From: scarlson@... (Stephen C. Carlson)
                To: Synoptic-L@...

                At 12:34 PM 1/17/99 +0000, Brian E. Wilson wrote:
                > I consider this point so important that I presume to come back on
                >this yet again.
                >[...]
                >I do not know of any directional indicator which shows that Matthew
                >copied from Mark. The arguments sometimes put forward for Matthew being
                >dependent on Mark seem to me to confuse a directional non-indicator with
                >a directional indicator.

                I think that it is a useful reminder that a so-called directional
                indicator is really a directional non-indicator. But, what
                methodology would you propose to advance from this point to a
                conclusion?

                For example, let us assume that there is what people (improperly) call
                directional indicators in favor of Mk --> Lk, that is, that Luke is
                dependent on Mark.

                As you ably point out, the direct evidence does not show Mk --> Lk,
                only that Lk --> Mk is unlikely (or Lk -/-> Mk). This leaves one of
                two possibilities:

                1. Mk --> Lk
                2. Mk <-- X --> Lk

                By what method are we entitled to conclude 1 (direct dependence) or
                2 (indirect dependence)?

                Stephen Carlson

                {Parsimony?

                Tim}

                -- >>
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