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The Synoptic Problem

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  • Wieland Willker
    Before a clarification. Re: The Facts ... This was not against the Real Yuri! I just needed some character here. (And you even got Jesus place!) This was
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 24, 1998
      Before a clarification.
      Re: The Facts
      > The Real Yuri wants to stand up and be counted here, folks.
      > Hello reality, Wieland and Jeremy!

      This was not against the Real Yuri!
      I just needed some character here. (And you even got Jesus place!)

      This was against too much speculation in general.
      Yuri Kuchinsky is - in fact - a good fighter for the facts. We all know
      this. Everyone should read his work about Secret Mark!
      Hey Yuri, together we stand!
      -----------

      About the Synoptic Problem:

      Do you all agree, that with the facts we have, we cannot really solve
      the Synoptic Problem (as defined, see below, some month ago)? - What is
      our job then? Is there a possibility to establish ONE scientific way to
      come as near as possible to "the truth"?
      There are several hypotheses. They have all some substantial arguments.
      But there are always some counter-arguments. I see this newsgroup
      circling around the problem without comming nearer the center. Every
      week or so, someone injects some new (old!) argument: "Hey in Mark or
      Luke I have found this and that. Isn't this a good argument for
      hypothesis A?"
      How do we have to weight all these arguments?

      The Synoptic Ppoblem reminds me of Astronomy. It is similar, because,
      they have the 'Universe', but cannot perform any experiments on it.
      Nevertheless they try to explain its origin. They improve their methods
      to measure it out. And they profit a lot from particle physics. Here we
      also have a majority view (the Big Bang = the Q Gospel), but also some
      minor views (Steady State etc.).
      Do we have an equivalent to particle physics? What experiments can we
      perform?
      Job for the week: Give me one good experiment!

      -------------------------------
      The Definition of the Synoptic Problem:
      -------------------------------
      The synoptic problem is an inquiry into the existence and nature of the
      literary relationship between the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and
      Luke.
      Stephen Carlson
      ---
      Sure puts it in a nutshell for me...except I would say ".....
      the direct (dependence on each other) and indirect (dependence on
      similar
      sources) relationship between....."
      Jack Kilmon
      ---
      Good succinct definition. I would add "and the investigation of
      reonstructed non-surviving sources."
      Edgar Krentz
      ---
      But presumably we are talking about WRITTEN sources here,
      however hypothetical, and not just about oral tradition, I presume.
      Carl W. Conrad
      ---
      "The synoptic problem is (1) an inquiry into the existence and nature
      of the literary relationship between the Gospels of Matthew, Mark,
      and Luke,(2)investigation of reconstructed non-surviving written
      sources, and (3)exploration of the influence of oral tradition upon
      the development of manuscripts of these gospels."
      Mahlon H. Smith
      ---
      "What could have happened in the writing of the gospels of
      Matthew, Mark and Luke,to produce these striking similarities and
      differences?"
      I think that the following is a fair and objective definition of the
      synoptic problem -
      "The synoptic problem is to put forward a hypothesis of the links
      between the synoptic gospels which is compatible with all the
      similarities and differences observable in them."
      BRIAN WILSON
      ---
      It would seem to me also
      that we need to take into account what the post-apostolic church
      tells us about the interrelationship.
      Jakob Heckert.
      ---
    • Brian E. Wilson
      Wieland Willker wrote - ... In science, experiments come in two types - (a) thought experiments (b) practical experiments. A scientist knows that an
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 24, 1998
        Wieland Willker wrote -
        >Job for the week: Give me one good experiment!
        >
        In science, experiments come in two types - (a) thought experiments (b)
        practical experiments. A scientist knows that an experiment is "good"
        after s/he has carried it out, not in advance of doing it.

        If you want a straightforward thought experiment, followed by a
        practical, and then an evaluation, try -

        Assignment part 1 - Think of the simplest documentary hypothesis which
        can account not only for all that could be accounted for by the
        Griesbach Hypothesis but which can account also for all that could be
        accounted for by the Farrer Hypothesis. State your reasoning.

        Assignment part 2 - Follow up the result of part 1 to check from a
        synopsis that the hypothesis you have formulated also accounts for
        synoptic patterns which can be accounted for by neither the Griesbach
        Hypothesis nor the Farrer Hypothesis.

        Assignment part 3 - On the basis of the results of the previous two
        parts, give reasons for affirming that the experiments carried out
        are/are not good.

        Best wishes,
        BRIAN WILSON

        >HOMEPAGE **REVISED NOVEMBER 1998** http://www.twonh.demon.co.uk

        E-MAIL: brian@...
        SNAILMAIL: Rev B. E. Wilson,
        10 York Close, Godmanchester,
        Huntingdon, Cambs, PE18 8EB, UK

        -------------------------------------------------------------------
      • Wieland Willker
        Sorry, but you got me wrong. I meant: Is there an equivalent to Particle Physics (in Astronomy) in Synoptic research? That is a science that can be used to
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 25, 1998
          Sorry, but you got me wrong.
          I meant: Is there an equivalent to Particle Physics (in Astronomy) in
          Synoptic research? That is a science that can be used to perform
          practical experiments to assist answering questions of the Synoptic
          Problem (like Particle Physics helps answering the question of how the
          Universe came into being).

          > A scientist knows that an experiment is "good"
          > after s/he has carried it out, not in advance of doing it.

          This is not correct. A "good" experiment is an experiment that answers
          important questions with the minimum effort. For the Big Bang, you would
          need a cyclotron as large as the earth (minimum effort!). We cannot do
          this (at the moment), but nevertheless it is a good experiment.

          Our models should be as simple as possible, but all the existing models
          are too simple. Therefore none can be generally accepted. Btw., Yuri
          recently pointed out:

          "All the 4 gospels depend on each other. The secondary stage of Mk
          depends on the other 2 Synoptics, plus on Jn. Just wait until I write
          all this stuff out in detail."

          Oh, and he even added: "There is no 'Synoptic Problem'."

          Yuri enlighten us PLEASE!

          Best wishes
          Wieland
        • Yuri Kuchinsky
          ... Wieland, This is such a big question that it s even difficult to know where to begin... I ve addressed various aspects of the Synoptic problem on the list
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 30, 1998
            On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Wieland Willker wrote:

            > Btw., Yuri recently pointed out:
            >
            > "All the 4 gospels depend on each other. The secondary stage of Mk
            > depends on the other 2 Synoptics, plus on Jn. Just wait until I write
            > all this stuff out in detail."
            >
            > Oh, and he even added: "There is no 'Synoptic Problem'."
            >
            > Yuri enlighten us PLEASE!

            Wieland,

            This is such a big question that it's even difficult to know where to
            begin...

            I've addressed various aspects of the Synoptic problem on the list for the
            last few months. I suppose the best way to disentangle all this is to
            start with the history of Mk?

            In any case, did you read the long article I posted about this in August?
            This should be a good introduction to the way I feel about the Synoptic
            problem. Now that article is available on my webpage, so here it is

            http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/synp.htm

            See what you think.

            Best wishes,

            Yuri.

            Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto

            http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm

            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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