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[Synoptic-L] Four and the riddle of the loaves and leftover baskets

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  • Richard Richmond
    John Lupia wrote: Your examples are absurd. Perhaps they appear to work out in English or other modern language tanslations but in Greek they are ludicrous. I
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 7 12:48 PM
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      John Lupia wrote:

      Your examples are absurd. Perhaps they appear to work
      out in English or other modern language tanslations
      but in Greek they are ludicrous. I thought your claim
      is that you are a Text Critic. For example, the number
      four (tessares) only appears in Mk 2:3; 13:27 (bis,
      not for times). Four-thousand (tetrakischilioi)is not
      four just as tetradion meaning four squadrons or
      tetrakosioi meaning four hundred is not "four" as you
      claim written in an unaltered way (tetra-,
      vs.tessares-, tessera-, and the late tesseres-). So TC
      claims are incredible.

      John this paragraph you wrote was the cause of my
      reaction. I think it has the tone of a personal attack
      rather than a scholarly response. The comment on what
      I call myself can hardly be understood as impersonal.
      I am an avid student of the Texts of the New
      Testament; that is my claim nothing more nothing less.
      I have established my commitment to learning from
      these texts at one of the most prestigious
      universities in American by the grace of God. And I
      have a right to express the results of my research
      within this forum, which is all that I am doing and
      all that I intend to do.

      With respect to your comments about the root of
      tessares; these other uses of the root have caused me
      to reconsider Mark's formula, and for that I am
      grateful. I had assumed that all the numbers were
      relevant to the formula and it appears that four
      thousand is not relevant as a control number.


      Mark 8:13

      Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do
      you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts
      hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having
      ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When
      I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how
      many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?"
      They said to him, "Twelve." 20 "And the seven for the
      four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces
      did you take up?" And they said to him, "Seven." 21
      And he said to them, "Do you not yet understand?"

      The word four does not actually appear in the formula
      text and it is not a word that directly involves the
      loaves or the leftovers; therefore it makes sense that
      it would not be a control number for counting. On the
      other hand, 5, 7 and 12 all appear here as cardinal
      numbers while four does not. There may be a separate
      significance to the words that appear four times but I
      think you are correct and that it is not part of
      Mark's test formula. Technically five thousand is not
      either except that it contains the root of five which
      does appear in its indeclinable form aa a cardinal
      number within the context of the riddle. So then John,
      let me say thank you for your challenging insight.

      Respectfully

      Rick Richmond




      Rick Richmond rickr2889@...



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    • John Lupia
      ... [snip] ... [snip] ... Rick, If you are sticking to the method that the PENTE- root appears five times, please reconsider. Its is enough that HEPTA appears
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 7 4:15 PM
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        --- Richard Richmond <rickr2889@...> wrote:
        [snip]
        >
        > With respect to your comments about the root of
        > tessares; these other uses of the root have caused
        > me
        > to reconsider Mark's formula, and for that I am
        > grateful. I had assumed that all the numbers were
        > relevant to the formula and it appears that four
        > thousand is not relevant as a control number.
        >
        >
        [snip]

        > The word four does not actually appear in the
        > formula
        > text and it is not a word that directly involves the
        > loaves or the leftovers; therefore it makes sense
        > that
        > it would not be a control number for counting. On
        > the
        > other hand, 5, 7 and 12 all appear here as cardinal
        > numbers while four does not. There may be a separate
        > significance to the words that appear four times but
        > I
        > think you are correct and that it is not part of
        > Mark's test formula. Technically five thousand is
        > not
        > either except that it contains the root of five
        > which
        > does appear in its indeclinable form aa a cardinal
        > number within the context of the riddle. So then
        > John,
        > let me say thank you for your challenging insight.
        >

        Rick,

        If you are sticking to the method that the PENTE- root
        appears five times, please reconsider. Its is enough
        that HEPTA appears 9 times, not 7, and DODEKA 15, not
        12. Perhaps, you wish to either rethink your formula
        or rephrase it.



        Mark’s 6 uses of PENTE-


        MK 6:38
        Mk 6:40 PENTEKONTA
        MK 6:41
        MK 6:44
        MK 8:19 (bis)

        Mark’s 9 uses of HEPTA

        Mk 8:5
        Mk 8:6
        Mk 8:8
        Mk 8:20 (bis) not a dittographic error
        Mk 12:20
        Mk 12:22
        Mk 12:23
        Mk 16:9 original


        Mark’s 15 uses of DODEKA


        Mk 3:14
        Mk 3:16
        Mk 4:10
        Mk 5:25
        Mk 5:42
        Mk 6:7
        Mk 6:43
        Mk 8:19
        Mk 9:35
        Mk 10:32
        Mk 11:11
        Mk 14:10
        Mk 14:17
        Mk 14:20
        Mk 14:43

        Best regards,
        John N. Lupia, III


        John N. Lupia, III
        Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
        Fax: (732) 349-3910
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        God Bless America

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