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Re: [Synoptic-L] Walking stick or Shepherd's staff : the priority of Mark

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  • John Lupia
    ... I have no reason to doubt the authenticity and veracity of the Gospels for any of Jesus statements found in any of them. I see no need to appeal to
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 3, 2005
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      --- Maluflen@... wrote:

      > In a message dated 6/30/2005 9:43:45 PM Eastern
      > Daylight Time,
      > jlupia2@... writes:
      >
      > > I agree with you on this, Leonard. However, I
      > think
      > > the historical statements of Jesus are relevant.
      >
      >
      > I was not making a general statement about the
      > relevancy of the historical
      > statements of Jesus; my frame of reference, rather,
      > was the discussion of the
      > relative antiquity of the three Synoptic texts we
      > have in front of us. In this
      > discussion, it is not relevant to psychologize about
      > what the historical
      > Jesus would likely have said.

      I have no reason to doubt the authenticity and
      veracity of the Gospels for any of Jesus' statements
      found in any of them. I see no need to appeal to
      skepticism and undermine the value of the texts, or
      give them a value that undermines their integrity and
      authority. They are, after all, all we have to go on
      and work with.


      > But this raises an interesting question in its own
      > realm. I think it is
      > fairly uncontroversial to state that some sayings of
      > Jesus reported in our
      > gospels have a good chance of going back,
      > substantially, to the historical Jesus,
      > and others do not.

      You are welcome to your opinion, which I do not hold.

      I would like to suggest that the
      > missionary discourse in the
      > Synoptics does not.

      I believe they do and a rational explanation is that
      Mk jumbles things around with similar events and
      brings the synoptic reading into question making it
      appear as though there are different takes on what
      Jesus said. Why Mk does this? We both agree, he is
      writing to a later Church than Luke and Matthew.

      There are all kinds of
      > indications -- in Matthew, the
      > original account -- that the words are formulated
      > and spoken into the present of
      > the Gospel communication event itself.

      This would be true for all the Gospel writers and is a
      far different thing and subject matter than the
      veracity of what Jesus said in any Gospel.

      Jesus is
      > speaking here as 'the Lord of
      > the harvest" (Matt 9:38) who is sending his laborers
      > into his harvest. Speaking
      > for Jesus here is the evangelist himself (a
      > "prophet" -- see Matt 10:41 -- in
      > this sense). It is extremely important to note that
      > in Matthew's text the
      > words spoken by Jesus on this occasion are not
      > followed by a report of the
      > disciples going out on a mission, as a past event,
      > and as we find in Luke and Mark
      > (Mark even has a full-blown "Acts of the Apostles"
      > in 6:13).

      Matthew's non-report is the living proof of the Church
      of his day. In other words, the very Church period in
      which Matthew wrote was living proof of their
      (apostles) actions having been a success or else there
      would be no Church. This rhetorical form was one
      Matthew uses and characterizes his style. I do not see
      how this can place Matthew in priority over either
      Luke or Mark. This argument, though of interest, is
      not productive in attempting to discern chronology of
      the Gospels.

      > This interpretation would imply that the words in
      > Matt 10 do not go all the
      > way back to the historical Jesus,

      Leonard, where is the (1) logic, (2) the argument?

      but they do go
      > back to an extremely early
      > moment in the story of the church -- the time when
      > the twelve disciples ruled
      > over and spoke authoritatively to a renewed Israel.
      > The challenge is issued to
      > Matthew's contemporaries that they are to obey the
      > apostles, and thereby obey
      > Jesus and God (the shaliah concept). Matt 10:40 is
      > very pointed and very
      > important in this respect: "He who receives you
      > receives me and he who receives me
      > receives the one who sent me". That "receiving"
      > means or at least includes
      > primarily "hearing" is suggested by the parallelism
      > of phrases in the negatively
      > formulated Matt 10:14.


      The original is in Lk 9:48; 10:6; followed by Jn
      13:20; 22:26 from which Matthew harvested the text and
      reworked it giving it that Matthean ring and iconic
      imagery.

      > It is also extremely significant that in Luke's
      > Gospel these pointed words
      > are not spoken to the twelve.


      See Lk 9:48; 10:6. Clinging to rigidity of thinking
      that the order of sayings in unmoveable to and in
      specific events is why the Synoptic Problem is yet
      unsolved . The evangelists were more fluid than modern
      researchers allow. They could jumble things up since
      that is licit as long as the original meaning of what
      Jesus said is not lost. No harm, no foul. Voila, 4
      Gospels each appearing in conflict and contradiction
      to very rigid minds.



      By Luke's time, the
      > twelve are no longer the voice
      > of Christ and of God for the Gospel recipients.
      > Instead, "the Lord" (Lk 10:1:
      > not the historical Jesus) speaks directly to the
      > group of the seventy (most
      > likely representing the new missionary movement of
      > Paul and his companions),


      I appreciate your view but wholeheartedly disagree.


      Best regards,
      John N. Lupia, III

      John N. Lupia, III
      Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
      Fax: (732) 349-3910
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
      God Bless America




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    • John Lupia
      To all: Clinging to rigidity of thinking that the order of sayings or that a particular saying is unmovable to and in specific events in the Public Ministry of
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 3, 2005
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        To all:

        Clinging to rigidity of thinking that the order of
        sayings or that a particular saying is unmovable to
        and in specific events in the Public Ministry of Jesus
        is why the Synoptic Problem is yet unsolved. This is a
        naïve journalist approach to texts that are not
        photojournalistic. The evangelists were more fluid
        than modern researchers allow. They could jumble
        things up since that is licit as long as the original
        meaning of what Jesus said is not lost, twisted,
        obscured or radically altered giving it an altogether
        different one. It is because of this fluidity that we
        have 4 Gospels with varying versions since each wrote
        to a specific historical situation in the Church
        addressing their own issues and served as
        clarifications of what some mistook the text to mean
        that was written by their predecessor. Unfortunately,
        to modern eyes and minds each appears in conflict and
        contradiction to the other and so we have the Synoptic
        Problem, a misinterpretation of the very nature of the
        Gospels and total darkness on how they were written.


        Mk, for example, jumbles things around in the sending
        out of the twelve with similar events and brings the
        synoptic reading into question to modern eyes
        producing the illusion that there are different takes
        on what Jesus actually said and did.

        Take for example, Mark 6:7 which like Mk 14:13 sends
        them out two by two and mirrors what LK 10:1; 24:13
        says about the seventy-two and the disciples on the
        road to Emmaus. Why Mk switches things around
        borrowing from one event that which occurred in
        another is only answerable in the situation of the
        Church when Mk wrote.

        Writing post Lk, Jn, and Mt we find Mk mention the
        apostles sent out two by two since this was the
        standard for witnesses as cited in Mt 18:16 and in
        rooted in ancient Jewish law in Jn 8:17; Apoc 11:3; 2
        Cor 13:1; 1 Tim 5:19; Heb 10:28; Mt 26:60. Moreover,
        Mt 18:19 points out the power of two in agreement; and
        again, the religious gathering of two or more in
        Jesus’ name assures them of Christ’s presence, in Mt
        18:20. In Lk 19:29//Mt 21:1//Mk 11:1 Jesus sends out
        two disciples, a phenomenon of practice attested to in
        the oldest Gospel of Luke in several places including
        his Acts 9:38; 19:22.

        So we need to ask is Mk contradicting Lk and Mt about
        this event or is he rather attempting to speak to the
        Church in his own time using a modus operandi in
        current use and not wanting to cite an original
        expression Jesus had historically made since there are
        always those in the crowd who reject their
        institutions current practices, thinking to themselves
        that they are wiser or better and out of vanity and
        egotism would prefer to deviate by justifying their
        behavior that this is what Jesus originally and
        historically said and had his apostles do. In other
        words, Mk appealed to his hearers and readers to abide
        by current Church standards since Jesus sanctioned it
        and thus avoided confusing anyone or tempting anyone
        to deviate from the present course of action. This
        tells us that the Church had gained wisdom in
        carefully wording things in each successive Gospel
        since the earlier Gospels were greatly and widely
        misinterpreted resulting in factions and dissentions
        disrupting the harmony and order established in the
        Church. Herein lies the crux to the so-called Synoptic
        Problem. This is why we find each successive Gospel
        restating things to fine tune and focus the meaning
        and avoid misinterpretation and factions.

        Another example in this same narrative has Mt 10:10
        “no sandals” borrow from Lk 10:5. Why? Perhaps Mt was
        shifting the nuance of meaning Lk 10:5 conveyed that
        the historical or symbolical time of year the event
        took place was during the Jewish liturgical calendar
        of Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement. Lev.
        16:29,31; 23:27,29; Num. 29:7 "in the seventh month
        (Tishri), on the tenth day of the month, you shall
        afflict your souls" From this the tradition on Yom
        Kippur was to not wear sandals. On Yom Kippur those
        who were not able to go to Jerusalem spent the entire
        day in their local synagogues fasting. So the charge
        to take no staff, sandals, bread or money may have
        been a reference that Luke and Matthew’s Jewish
        audience would have understood without any need for a
        modern interpreter to point it out to them. Having the
        twelve go preach about Jesus for Yom Kippur has very
        obvious significance that Jesus is the only one who
        can take away the sins of human beings.


        Mark not writing predominantly to Jews in Rome but to
        Gentiles no longer sees the need to make the obscure
        references to Yom Kippur but restates things in terms
        Romans could have grasped while avoiding
        eccentricities that could lend themselves to
        misinterpretations and factions.

        Best regards,
        John N. Lupia, III

        John N. Lupia, III
        Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
        Fax: (732) 349-3910
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        God Bless America

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