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RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

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  • Jacob Knee
    Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help: [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the picture and emphasize the
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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      Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help:

      [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the
      picture and emphasize the Apocalyptic side of eschatology is still more
      marked.’ (p 430 Oxford Studies)

      ‘Matthew not only adds weight to Mark’s Apocalypse by adding fresh materials
      so as to more than double its length; he also embellishes what he takes over
      from Mark with details from the conventional stock of Apocalyptic ideas’ (p
      431 Oxford Studies)

      'Mark, Luke, and John form a series, with a progressive tendency to
      emphasise the universal element in Christianity and to minimise the
      Apocalyptic. Matthew represents an independent development, which, as
      compared with Mark, shows a movement in the reverse direction in regard to
      both these points.' (p 394 Four Gospels)

      ‘it cannot be denied that as between Matthew and Mark there is a heightening
      of Apocalyptic interest. Thus in Mt.xxiv.29-31 = Mk.xiii.25-27 we find the
      addition by Matthew of various details, like the trumpet, derived from the
      conventional scenery of Jewish eschatology. Again, Matthew five times uses
      the phrase, "the end of the world," which does not occur elsewhere in the
      Gospels; he six times speaks of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," a phrase
      which occurs only once in Luke and nowhere else in the New Testament. Nor is
      it without significance that in chapter xiii. he refrains from pointing the
      moral of the parables of the Mustard Seed, Leaven, Hid Treasure, and Pearl
      of Great Price, to all of which it is difficult to give an Apocalyptic
      interpretation, but goes out of his way to add an explanation in terms of
      catastrophic eschatology to the parables of the Tares and the Drag Net.’ (p
      521 Four Gospels)

      Though Streeter never AFAIK explicitly defines what he means by apocalyptic
      he assumes the existence of a 'conventional' Jewish apocalyptic 'picture'
      which focuses on the end of the world. (I'd be interested to know where he
      gets this 'picture' from). The details of this 'conventional Jewish
      picture' include: visible return of Christ, trumpet, throne, crisis,
      catastrophy, darkness, angels, last judgement. He argues, I think, that
      Matthew heightens these elements in his Gospel to, so to say,
      'conventionalise' his story.

      I'm trying to find out if other scholars before Streeter had made this kind
      of argument. Streeter doesn't refer to anyone else - so he gives no pointers
      - and the 'cash value', so to say, of the Matthean argument is that it
      allows him to conclude (against Weiss, Schweitzer etc.) that not very much
      of this apocalyptic 'end of the world' imagery goes back Jesus. Streeter
      isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery - calling it at
      various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people who use it ''wild' or
      'fanatical'.

      Probably too much info. But does that help?

      Best wishes,
      Jacob Knee
      (Cam, Glos.)


      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
      Behalf Of Peter Head
      Sent: 25 February 2005 14:21
      To: Synoptic-L@...
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

      Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
      concern'?

      Peter




      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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    • John C. Poirier
      ... It s interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize the pneumatology of Acts. John C. Poirier Middletown, Ohio Synoptic-L Homepage:
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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        Jacob Knee wrote:

        > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
        > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
        > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

        It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
        the pneumatology of Acts.


        John C. Poirier
        Middletown, Ohio



        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • Jacob Knee
        B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as grotesque oriental fancy (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is lurid , and John s preaching of judgement
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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          B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental fancy' (p
          419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and John's preaching of
          judgement is 'fervid'

          Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the Hellenistic
          Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the Synoptics to the true 'heart
          of Christ''

          Does Dodd prefer John too?

          Best wishes,
          Jacob Knee
          (Cam, Glos.)

          -----Original Message-----
          From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
          Behalf Of John C. Poirier
          Sent: 25 February 2005 16:05
          To: 'Synoptic-L'
          Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

          Jacob Knee wrote:

          > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
          > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
          > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

          It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
          the pneumatology of Acts.


          John C. Poirier
          Middletown, Ohio



          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...



          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • John C. Poirier
          ... These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is the mother of Christianity should cause such a stir. ... I m not sure about prefer , but
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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            Jacob Knee wrote:

            > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
            > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
            > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
            >
            > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
            > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
            > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

            These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
            of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

            > Does Dodd prefer John too?

            I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


            John C. Poirier
            Middletown, Ohio



            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • Jacob Knee
            Streeter s 1911 essay at the end of Oxford Studies on Synoptic Criticism and the Eschatological Problem starts by saying what a great problem has been
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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              Streeter's 1911 essay at the end of 'Oxford Studies' on 'Synoptic Criticism
              and the Eschatological Problem' starts by saying what a 'great problem' has
              been 'acutely' forced upon scholars by the writings of 'Weiss, Schweitzer,
              Loisy and Tyrrell as to how far the Apocalyptic eschatology of the primitive
              Church really represented the mind of Christ.' (Not very much was his
              considered answer).

              On the other hand I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent
              collection, 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that
              F.C. Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer. Burkitt
              sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to see what of his
              was still in print.

              Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of himself,
              'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described Schweitzer's work as
              'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

              Best wishes,
              Jacob Knee
              (Cam, Glos)

              -----Original Message-----
              From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
              Behalf Of John C. Poirier
              Sent: 25 February 2005 17:43
              To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
              Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

              Jacob Knee wrote:

              > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
              > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
              > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
              >
              > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
              > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
              > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

              These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
              of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

              > Does Dodd prefer John too?

              I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


              John C. Poirier
              Middletown, Ohio





              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • John C. Poirier
              ... What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it, and
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                Jacob Knee wrote:

                > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                > see what of his was still in print.
                >
                > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                John C. Poirier
                Middletown, Ohio



                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • Jacob Knee
                Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208). FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                  Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in
                  Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).

                  FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:

                  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1841271853/qid=1109362886/sr=
                  1-1/ref=sr_pb_a//104-3759134-6252714?condition=all

                  Best wishes,
                  Jacob Knee
                  (Cam, Glos.)

                  PS Usual disclaimers about no financial connection...


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                  Sent: 25 February 2005 19:27
                  To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                  Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                  Jacob Knee wrote:

                  > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                  > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                  > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                  > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                  > see what of his was still in print.
                  >
                  > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                  > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                  > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                  What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                  Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                  and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                  In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                  I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                  apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                  John C. Poirier
                  Middletown, Ohio





                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • John C. Poirier
                  Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on Why the Enlightenment
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                    Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                    wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                    Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                    way)?

                    John C. Poirier
                    Middletown, Ohio


                    Jacob Knee wrote:

                    > Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology
                    > in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).
                    >
                    > FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:




                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • Jacob Knee
                    It is. He s Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican Theological College here in the UK. He s a bibliography to download if it s helpful. It
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                      It is. He's Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican
                      Theological College here in the UK.


                      He's a bibliography to download if it's helpful. It comes as an .rtf file
                      (watch the wrap)

                      http://www.oxford.anglican.org/rcc/Word_Documents/Mark_Chapman_publications.
                      rtf

                      Best wishes,
                      Jacob Knee
                      (Cam, Glos.)


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                      Sent: 25 February 2005 20:55
                      To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                      Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                      Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                      wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                      Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                      way)?

                      John C. Poirier
                      Middletown, Ohio




                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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