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Re: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

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  • Peter Head
    Can you help me with a definition or example of heightened apocalyptic concern ? Peter ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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      Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
      concern'?

      Peter

      At 01:16 PM 2/25/05, Jacob Knee wrote:
      >I'm looking at the history of interpretation of the apocalyptic elements
      >in the Gospel of Matthew.
      >
      >Both David Sim and Kathleen Weber's 1994 thesis (Events of the End of the
      >Age) identify Streeter as the first scholar to claim there is a heightened
      >apocalyptic concern in Matthew (compared with Mark and Q).
      >
      >I too haven't been able to find any earlier scholar who made this claim
      >but any wonder if anyone else knows better?
      >
      >Best wishes,
      >Jacob Knee
      >(Cam, Glos.)

      Peter M. Head, PhD
      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
      566607
      Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
      http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm


      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
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    • Jacob Knee
      Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help: [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the picture and emphasize the
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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        Here are some quotes from Streeter that may help:

        [compared to Mark] ‘in Matthew the tendency to fill in the details of the
        picture and emphasize the Apocalyptic side of eschatology is still more
        marked.’ (p 430 Oxford Studies)

        ‘Matthew not only adds weight to Mark’s Apocalypse by adding fresh materials
        so as to more than double its length; he also embellishes what he takes over
        from Mark with details from the conventional stock of Apocalyptic ideas’ (p
        431 Oxford Studies)

        'Mark, Luke, and John form a series, with a progressive tendency to
        emphasise the universal element in Christianity and to minimise the
        Apocalyptic. Matthew represents an independent development, which, as
        compared with Mark, shows a movement in the reverse direction in regard to
        both these points.' (p 394 Four Gospels)

        ‘it cannot be denied that as between Matthew and Mark there is a heightening
        of Apocalyptic interest. Thus in Mt.xxiv.29-31 = Mk.xiii.25-27 we find the
        addition by Matthew of various details, like the trumpet, derived from the
        conventional scenery of Jewish eschatology. Again, Matthew five times uses
        the phrase, "the end of the world," which does not occur elsewhere in the
        Gospels; he six times speaks of "weeping and gnashing of teeth," a phrase
        which occurs only once in Luke and nowhere else in the New Testament. Nor is
        it without significance that in chapter xiii. he refrains from pointing the
        moral of the parables of the Mustard Seed, Leaven, Hid Treasure, and Pearl
        of Great Price, to all of which it is difficult to give an Apocalyptic
        interpretation, but goes out of his way to add an explanation in terms of
        catastrophic eschatology to the parables of the Tares and the Drag Net.’ (p
        521 Four Gospels)

        Though Streeter never AFAIK explicitly defines what he means by apocalyptic
        he assumes the existence of a 'conventional' Jewish apocalyptic 'picture'
        which focuses on the end of the world. (I'd be interested to know where he
        gets this 'picture' from). The details of this 'conventional Jewish
        picture' include: visible return of Christ, trumpet, throne, crisis,
        catastrophy, darkness, angels, last judgement. He argues, I think, that
        Matthew heightens these elements in his Gospel to, so to say,
        'conventionalise' his story.

        I'm trying to find out if other scholars before Streeter had made this kind
        of argument. Streeter doesn't refer to anyone else - so he gives no pointers
        - and the 'cash value', so to say, of the Matthean argument is that it
        allows him to conclude (against Weiss, Schweitzer etc.) that not very much
        of this apocalyptic 'end of the world' imagery goes back Jesus. Streeter
        isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery - calling it at
        various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people who use it ''wild' or
        'fanatical'.

        Probably too much info. But does that help?

        Best wishes,
        Jacob Knee
        (Cam, Glos.)


        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
        Behalf Of Peter Head
        Sent: 25 February 2005 14:21
        To: Synoptic-L@...
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

        Can you help me with a definition or example of 'heightened apocalyptic
        concern'?

        Peter




        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
      • John C. Poirier
        ... It s interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize the pneumatology of Acts. John C. Poirier Middletown, Ohio Synoptic-L Homepage:
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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          Jacob Knee wrote:

          > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
          > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
          > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

          It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
          the pneumatology of Acts.


          John C. Poirier
          Middletown, Ohio



          Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
          List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
        • Jacob Knee
          B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as grotesque oriental fancy (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is lurid , and John s preaching of judgement
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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            B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental fancy' (p
            419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and John's preaching of
            judgement is 'fervid'

            Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the Hellenistic
            Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the Synoptics to the true 'heart
            of Christ''

            Does Dodd prefer John too?

            Best wishes,
            Jacob Knee
            (Cam, Glos.)

            -----Original Message-----
            From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
            Behalf Of John C. Poirier
            Sent: 25 February 2005 16:05
            To: 'Synoptic-L'
            Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

            Jacob Knee wrote:

            > Streeter isn't overly fond of this kind of apocalyptic imagery -
            > calling it at various points, 'naïve', 'crude' and the people
            > who use it ''wild' or 'fanatical'.

            It's interesting that Dodd uses these same derisive terms to characterize
            the pneumatology of Acts.


            John C. Poirier
            Middletown, Ohio



            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...



            Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
            List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
          • John C. Poirier
            ... These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is the mother of Christianity should cause such a stir. ... I m not sure about prefer , but
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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              Jacob Knee wrote:

              > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
              > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
              > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
              >
              > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
              > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
              > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

              These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
              of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

              > Does Dodd prefer John too?

              I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


              John C. Poirier
              Middletown, Ohio



              Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
              List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
            • Jacob Knee
              Streeter s 1911 essay at the end of Oxford Studies on Synoptic Criticism and the Eschatological Problem starts by saying what a great problem has been
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                Streeter's 1911 essay at the end of 'Oxford Studies' on 'Synoptic Criticism
                and the Eschatological Problem' starts by saying what a 'great problem' has
                been 'acutely' forced upon scholars by the writings of 'Weiss, Schweitzer,
                Loisy and Tyrrell as to how far the Apocalyptic eschatology of the primitive
                Church really represented the mind of Christ.' (Not very much was his
                considered answer).

                On the other hand I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent
                collection, 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that
                F.C. Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer. Burkitt
                sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to see what of his
                was still in print.

                Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of himself,
                'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described Schweitzer's work as
                'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                Best wishes,
                Jacob Knee
                (Cam, Glos)

                -----Original Message-----
                From: owner-synoptic-l@... [mailto:owner-synoptic-l@...] On
                Behalf Of John C. Poirier
                Sent: 25 February 2005 17:43
                To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                Jacob Knee wrote:

                > B.W. Bacon memorably describes apocalypses as 'grotesque oriental
                > fancy' (p 419 Studies in Matthew), its imaqery is 'lurid', and
                > John's preaching of judgement is 'fervid'
                >
                > Both Streeter and Bacon to use Bacon's words think that 'the
                > Hellenistic Gospel [ie John] does...better justice than the
                > Synoptics to the true 'heart of Christ''

                These quotations help explain why the claim that apocalyptic is "the mother
                of Christianity" should cause such a stir.

                > Does Dodd prefer John too?

                I'm not sure about "prefer", but he does like John's gospel a lot.


                John C. Poirier
                Middletown, Ohio





                Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
              • John C. Poirier
                ... What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it, and
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                  Jacob Knee wrote:

                  > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                  > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                  > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                  > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                  > see what of his was still in print.
                  >
                  > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                  > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                  > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                  What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                  Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                  and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                  In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                  I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                  apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                  John C. Poirier
                  Middletown, Ohio



                  Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                  List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                • Jacob Knee
                  Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208). FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                    Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology in
                    Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).

                    FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:

                    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/1841271853/qid=1109362886/sr=
                    1-1/ref=sr_pb_a//104-3759134-6252714?condition=all

                    Best wishes,
                    Jacob Knee
                    (Cam, Glos.)

                    PS Usual disclaimers about no financial connection...


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                    Sent: 25 February 2005 19:27
                    To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                    Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                    Jacob Knee wrote:

                    > I learned in Dale Allison's excellent essay in the recent collection,
                    > 'Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus' that F.C.
                    > Burkitt was an enthusiastic supporter of Weiss and Schweitzer.
                    > Burkitt sounded so interesting it made me actually look at Amazon to
                    > see what of his was still in print.
                    >
                    > Finally, Dean Inge - always a bit of a rent-a-quote (as he said of
                    > himself, 'Inge as in sting, not inge as in whinge') - described
                    > Schweitzer's work as 'blasphemous' in 1910 review in JTS.

                    What you say about both Burkitt and Inge surprises me: I would have expected
                    Burkitt to give apocalyptic the same cold reception that Streeter gave it,
                    and Inge to give it a warmer reception.

                    In the words of Rod Stewart, "Look how wrong you can be."

                    I wonder if there's an essay out there tracing scholarly opinions on
                    apocalyptic, both pre- and post-Schweitzer.


                    John C. Poirier
                    Middletown, Ohio





                    Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                    List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                  • John C. Poirier
                    Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on Why the Enlightenment
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                      Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                      wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                      Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                      way)?

                      John C. Poirier
                      Middletown, Ohio


                      Jacob Knee wrote:

                      > Mark Chapman, The Coming Crisis: The Impact of Eschatology on Theology
                      > in Edwardian England (JSNTS 208).
                      >
                      > FWIW available for $26 at Amazon.com:




                      Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                      List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
                    • Jacob Knee
                      It is. He s Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican Theological College here in the UK. He s a bibliography to download if it s helpful. It
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 25, 2005
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                        It is. He's Vice Principal of Ripon College, Cuddesdon an Anglican
                        Theological College here in the UK.


                        He's a bibliography to download if it's helpful. It comes as an .rtf file
                        (watch the wrap)

                        http://www.oxford.anglican.org/rcc/Word_Documents/Mark_Chapman_publications.
                        rtf

                        Best wishes,
                        Jacob Knee
                        (Cam, Glos.)


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: John C. Poirier [mailto:poirier@...]
                        Sent: 25 February 2005 20:55
                        To: 'Jacob Knee'; 'Synoptic-L'
                        Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] streeter and matthean apocalyptic

                        Thanks, Jacob. Do you know whether this is this the same Mark Chapman who
                        wrote a book on Troeltsch and a Heythrop Journal article on "Why the
                        Enlightenment Project Doesn't Have to Fail" (both excellent reading, by the
                        way)?

                        John C. Poirier
                        Middletown, Ohio




                        Synoptic-L Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/synoptic-l
                        List Owner: Synoptic-L-Owner@...
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