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3709Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: The Four-gospel-collection

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  • K. Hanhart
    Feb 5, 2000
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      ll wrote:
      > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
      > > And further on in your [K.H.] message you seemed to assume that there was an
      > > earlier pre-70 passover haggadah before Mk was written. But this
      > > assumption is not so common among scholars.

      Louis Lomasky (11) commented:
      > This is also a rather difficult assertion to maintain considering the fact
      > that there is virtually no evidence for the existence of codified
      > written haggados before the Mishnah was written. I believe that the
      > earliest we have is from the Gaonic Era from Sa'adia.
      > 'Twould be an unexpected innovation for Mark to be writing haggados before
      > the destruction of the Temple. With a central meeting place established
      > and a standard order well in place there would be little need for written
      > documents telling one how to lead a seder.

      I am using the term Passover Haggadah rather broadly. I agree that the
      written Seder, as we have it. Mark's haggadah is certainly not like the
      Seder we all know. However, the written Seder is rather late but it must
      have had old roots long Before the Common Era.
      David Daube rightly, I think, complained already in '58 of the "cool
      reception" his proposal received to follow what he termed "some
      desirable lines of exploration of the Gospels". He described the
      parallel structure of the order of the questions put to Jesus on the
      Temple Square and the order the questions by the wise son (chakham)
      asking about the Law; the wicked one (rasha') who asks to jeer; the
      simple one (tam) "asking for plain guidance" and the one who doesnot
      know how to ask questions" (she'eno yodhe'a lish'ol). In the Seder the
      person presiding himself poses the question in place of this last son.
      So does Jesus On the Temple square. Daube opts for a very early
      tradition (40 CE?) within christian circles, which Mark used (no
      'euthus' here and the verb "to dare" (12,34b) lacking in Matthew. Note
      also the 'tribute to Caesar' question posed by some of the Herodians and
      Pharisees 12,13, cf 3,6).
      Yurinski wrote also:
      ... 2. The counting from the Sunday after Passover. According to
      > > Sadducees (Boethusians), Zadokites, Samaritans, and Karaites preferred to
      > > follow this practice. Goudoever sees this as the more traditionalist
      > > Jewish practice.

      Louis L commented:
      > It is odd that he mentioned Karaites as they did not come into existence
      > until centuries after the destruction of the Second Temple. Whether it is
      > more traditionalist is another matter.

      Van Goudoever was well aware of the phenomenon of the Karaites "probably
      in the ninth century" (see his Biblical Calendars, p 22)

      Re. your interesting observations on Sukkoth, plesse consider my
      comments to John Poirier which also deals with your research.

      regards Karel
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