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Alternatives to Moreover

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  • Julian Bond
    After 4 years of using Moreover as a source of fairly general news on one of the websites I manage, we ve been asked to cease and desist. Are there any other
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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      After 4 years of using Moreover as a source of fairly general news on
      one of the websites I manage, we've been asked to cease and desist.

      Are there any other RSS sources that do a similar level of
      categorization and are either free or very cheap? A good example of what
      I'm looking for might be:-

      Moreover Venture Capital
      http://p.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?index_venturecapital+rss
      http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?o=portal&c=Venture%20capital%20new
      s

      --
      Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond@...
      Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/
      Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
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      M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
    • Bill Kearney
      ... What explanation did they give? What price did they quote for continued use? What was the site in question? All seem relevant to what one should make of
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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        > After 4 years of using Moreover as a source of fairly general news on
        > one of the websites I manage, we've been asked to cease and desist.

        What explanation did they give? What price did they quote for continued use?
        What was the site in question?

        All seem relevant to what one should make of their decision.

        > Are there any other RSS sources that do a similar level of
        > categorization and are either free or very cheap?

        What price ranges exist for this sort of stuff?

        > A good example of what I'm looking for might be:-
        >
        > Moreover Venture Capital
        > http://p.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?index_venturecapital+rss
        > http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?o=portal&c=Venture%20capital%20news

        I ask these somewhat rhetorical questions to get this out into the open for
        discussion.

        -Bill Kearney
      • Mike Krus
        ... their terms of service are now very strict. The free feeds are now basically only available to organisations which are registered as non-profit. I don t
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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          Bill Kearney wrote:
          >>After 4 years of using Moreover as a source of fairly general news on
          >>one of the websites I manage, we've been asked to cease and desist.
          > What explanation did they give? What price did they quote for continued use?
          > What was the site in question?
          their terms of service are now very strict. The free feeds are now
          basically only available to organisations which are registered
          as non-profit. I don't think they even mention individuals using
          RSS news readers.

          Price is not public I believe. But a customized new feed
          is very expensive.


          Mike

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        • Julian Bond
          ... Breaking their T&Cs ... They didn t. But mainly because we haven t got the money anyway so it s a bit pointless starting negotiations. ...
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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            Bill Kearney <ml_yahoo@...> wrote:
            >> After 4 years of using Moreover as a source of fairly general news on
            >> one of the websites I manage, we've been asked to cease and desist.
            >
            >What explanation did they give?

            Breaking their T&Cs

            >What price did they quote for continued use?

            They didn't. But mainly because we haven't got the money anyway so it's
            a bit pointless starting negotiations.

            >What was the site in question?

            http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=import

            What's interesting about this is that they still provide the feeds on
            publicly accessible URLs and with no security. Now just because the feed
            is accessible doesn't mean you can do what you like with it and
            re-publish it. But I'd still expect people who explicitly don't want
            this to happen to take some minimal steps to prevent it. This is not the
            same as saying don't scrape my pages, it's more like saying don't visit
            this URL. But this is a legal minefield and ultimately it's their data
            so you shouldn't really go against their wishes.

            --
            Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond@...
            Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/
            Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
            CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
            M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
          • Rich Wild
            what s fun is that if you go the the dev centre at moreover: http://w.moreover.com/dev/ and click on the link for their updated T&Cs:
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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              what's fun is that if you go the the dev centre at moreover:
              http://w.moreover.com/dev/

              and click on the link for their updated T&Cs:

              http://w.moreover.com/site/about/termsandconditions.html

              you get a nice fat 404.

              real terms at http://w.moreover.com/main_site/aboutus/terms.html

              as for the T&Cs themselves:

              "2.1.
              At Moreover's sole discretion, certain Charities may be granted use of the
              Service in any properties or applications, including web sites, intranets,
              extranets and software.

              [snip]

              To be considered for eligibility as a Charity, qualified applicants should
              complete this form and submit to Moreover for review. An applicant will only
              be deemed a Charity under this Agreement upon written approval of Moreover.
              "

              You know, I wondered when this was coming. Bah.

              Rich


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian_bond@...]
              > Sent: 13 February 2003 13:14
              > To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [syndication] Alternatives to Moreover
              >
              >
              > Bill Kearney <ml_yahoo@...> wrote:
              > >> After 4 years of using Moreover as a source of fairly
              > general news on
              > >> one of the websites I manage, we've been asked to cease and desist.
              > >
              > >What explanation did they give?
              >
              > Breaking their T&Cs
              >
              > >What price did they quote for continued use?
              >
              > They didn't. But mainly because we haven't got the money
              > anyway so it's
              > a bit pointless starting negotiations.
              >
              > >What was the site in question?
              >
              > http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=import
              >
              > What's interesting about this is that they still provide the feeds on
              > publicly accessible URLs and with no security. Now just
              > because the feed
              > is accessible doesn't mean you can do what you like with it and
              > re-publish it. But I'd still expect people who explicitly don't want
              > this to happen to take some minimal steps to prevent it. This
              > is not the
              > same as saying don't scrape my pages, it's more like saying
              > don't visit
              > this URL. But this is a legal minefield and ultimately it's
              > their data
              > so you shouldn't really go against their wishes.
              >
              > --
              > Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond@...
              > Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/
              > Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
              > CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
              > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Bill Kearney
              ... Which link did they cite? ... For your situation that certainly makes sense. However, a discussion about what ARE the prices seems like it would help the
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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                > >What explanation did they give?
                > Breaking their T&Cs

                Which link did they cite?

                > >What price did they quote for continued use?
                > They didn't. But mainly because we haven't got the money anyway so it's
                > a bit pointless starting negotiations.

                For your situation that certainly makes sense.

                However, a discussion about what ARE the prices seems like it would help the
                consuming population as a whole. This is sort of a chicken/egg situation. That
                and the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" concept comes to mind. Most
                sites would certainly love to get content at no charge. Realistically, however,
                content providers deserve to be compensated for their labors. What's not well
                known is the range of prices and sources.

                > What's interesting about this is that they still provide the feeds on
                > publicly accessible URLs and with no security. Now just because the feed
                > is accessible doesn't mean you can do what you like with it and
                > re-publish it. But I'd still expect people who explicitly don't want
                > this to happen to take some minimal steps to prevent it. This is not the
                > same as saying don't scrape my pages, it's more like saying don't visit
                > this URL. But this is a legal minefield and ultimately it's their data
                > so you shouldn't really go against their wishes.

                Indeed, the 'deep linking' legal urban legend comes to mind.

                -Bill Kearney
              • Bill Kearney
                ... Sheesh, that doesn t reflect very well. The one community that /knows/ about using XML data and there s no reliable link. They ve had a bit of uneven
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 13, 2003
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                  > what's fun is that if you go the the dev centre at moreover:
                  > http://w.moreover.com/dev/
                  > and click on the link for their updated T&Cs:
                  > http://w.moreover.com/site/about/termsandconditions.html
                  > you get a nice fat 404.

                  Sheesh, that doesn't reflect very well. The one community that /knows/ about
                  using XML data and there's no reliable link. They've had a bit of uneven record
                  in delivering consistent developer messages.

                  > real terms at http://w.moreover.com/main_site/aboutus/terms.html
                  > as for the T&Cs themselves:
                  >
                  > You know, I wondered when this was coming. Bah.

                  I'm surprised it hasn't come sooner. I'm also surprised at the complete lack of
                  exposure to practices and pricing in this market.

                  -Bill Kearney
                • jdklub <pseudonym@mindspring.com>
                  ... so it s ... help the ... situation. That ... mind. Most ... Realistically, however, ... What s not well ... I would also like to see a discussion about
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 14, 2003
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                    > > >What price did they quote for continued use?
                    > > They didn't. But mainly because we haven't got the money anyway
                    so it's
                    > > a bit pointless starting negotiations.
                    >
                    > For your situation that certainly makes sense.
                    >
                    > However, a discussion about what ARE the prices seems like it would
                    help the
                    > consuming population as a whole. This is sort of a chicken/egg
                    situation. That
                    > and the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" concept comes to
                    mind. Most
                    > sites would certainly love to get content at no charge.
                    Realistically, however,
                    > content providers deserve to be compensated for their labors.
                    What's not well
                    > known is the range of prices and sources.

                    I would also like to see a discussion about pricing unfold. If I may
                    ask, Julian, what would you be willing to pay for a similar feed? Is
                    it something worth paying for at all? What do other people think?
                    What is the magic price for a decently filtered, topical feed? Would
                    you want to pay per feed/topic, or pay a site-wide fee and get as
                    many feeds/topics as needed for your site? I ask because I could
                    actually provide such feeds*, but have no idea what people are
                    willing to pay for them, if anything at all.

                    * not as high quality as moreover's (yet), but given a specific topic
                    I would certainly be willing to work on finding sources for that
                    topic, especially if someone was throwing a couple of bucks my way
                    each month.
                  • Julian Bond
                    ... I think the price to general websites is dropping rapidly to zero. But there probably is still a monetary value for specific tailored feeds for corporates.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 15, 2003
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                      "jdklub <pseudonym@...>" <pseudonym@...> wrote:
                      >I would also like to see a discussion about pricing unfold. If I may
                      >ask, Julian, what would you be willing to pay for a similar feed? Is
                      >it something worth paying for at all? What do other people think?
                      >What is the magic price for a decently filtered, topical feed? Would
                      >you want to pay per feed/topic, or pay a site-wide fee and get as
                      >many feeds/topics as needed for your site? I ask because I could
                      >actually provide such feeds*, but have no idea what people are
                      >willing to pay for them, if anything at all.
                      >
                      >* not as high quality as moreover's (yet), but given a specific topic
                      >I would certainly be willing to work on finding sources for that
                      >topic, especially if someone was throwing a couple of bucks my way
                      >each month.

                      I think the price to general websites is dropping rapidly to zero. But
                      there probably is still a monetary value for specific tailored feeds for
                      corporates.

                      For any particular subject, it's becoming reasonably effective to
                      collect a group of feeds from sites specifically focussed on the same
                      subject. So the categorization is at the feed level. This works well for
                      something like "WiFi". What's much harder and which may have value is
                      collection and creation of a feed on something like "European Internet
                      News". Most of the sources for this still don't produce RSS. And the
                      topic is too broad to lend itself to simple keyword searches.

                      As for money, we're not a corporate, we're a community news site
                      struggling to find ways of making just enough money to pay a very small
                      team and make enough bonus to pay for the Christmas dinner. So frankly
                      we wouldn't be prepared to pay anything. Rather, I'll find reasons why
                      we didn't actually need a "European Internet News" feed.

                      Then there's Google. Google news is an amazingly powerful source and
                      their word search works amazingly well. It would be great if they could
                      return RSS as an alternative to html.

                      --
                      Julian Bond Email&MSM: julian.bond@...
                      Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/
                      Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
                      CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
                      M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
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