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Announce: Scripting News in OPML

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  • Dave Winer
    Dear Syndicators and Radio UserLanders and XML fans.. I m pleased to announce that Scripting News is now available in OPML [1], in addition to all previous
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 16, 2001
      Dear Syndicators and Radio UserLanders and XML fans..

      I'm pleased to announce that Scripting News is now available in OPML [1], in
      addition to all previous XMLizations.

      ***Advantages of OPML

      An advantage of OPML over other forms is that aggregators get the structure
      of the document, so they can tell when a set of comments are part of a
      sub-outline, and should be grouped together.

      It's also possible to add attributes to individual items, so if people who
      are doing aggregations, I'm open to suggestions. Before we roll the feature
      out on other Manila sites, I want to see what improvements, if any, are
      possible on the aggregation side.

      Note that this new feature should address many of the problems people have
      encountered with Scripting News in various other forms. Same with Doc
      Searl's weblog (he also writes in the Radio outliner).

      ***Location of OPML files

      They are all contained in this folder. [2]

      There's a file that always contains the current contents of Scripting News.
      [3]

      Back issues are maintained in a calendar structured folder. [4] The archives
      date back to 7/20/00.

      Here's the OPML for September 11. [5]

      Dave

      [1] http://www.opml.org/
      [2] http://www.scripting.com/xml/
      [3] http://www.scripting.com/xml/currentOutline.xml
      [4] http://www.scripting.com/xml/outlineArchive/
      [5] http://www.scripting.com/xml/outlineArchive/2001/09/11.xml
    • Julian Bond
      In article , Dave Winer writes ... [Snip] ... A new format implementation is interesting. But I fail
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 17, 2001
        In article <13bd01c13f09$337a1960$33a1dc40@murphy>, Dave Winer
        <dave@...> writes
        >I'm pleased to announce that Scripting News is now available in OPML [1], in
        >addition to all previous XMLizations.

        [Snip]

        >Note that this new feature should address many of the problems people have
        >encountered with Scripting News in various other forms. Same with Doc
        >Searl's weblog (he also writes in the Radio outliner).

        A new format implementation is interesting. But I fail to see how this
        addresses the problems with the four Manila/Radio implementations of the
        existing formats.

        The 0.91 (/xml/rss.xml) implementation in particular could be improved.
        It is outputting broken html in the <title>, no html in the
        <description> and is concatenating a day's items into a single <item>.
        Any progress in fixing this would be much appreciated.

        --
        Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
        CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
        WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
        HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
        M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
        ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
      • Dave Winer
        ... All the structural information and none of the formatting information is in the OPML sources. It s not a solution to the problems of the RSS renderings of
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 17, 2001
          > A new format implementation is interesting. But I fail to see how this
          > addresses the problems with the four Manila/Radio implementations of the
          > existing formats.

          All the structural information and none of the formatting information is in
          the OPML sources.

          It's not a solution to the problems of the RSS renderings of my site and
          Doc's but it is a solution to getting the information out via syndication
          without glitches.

          BTW, it's not a new format -- OPML is already over a year old. ;->

          Dave
        • wkearney99@hotmail.com
          ... this ... of the ... Indeed, all it does it introduce yet another format to handle. The spec appears to have nothing in the way of text formatting, support
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 17, 2001
            > A new format implementation is interesting. But I fail to see how
            this
            > addresses the problems with the four Manila/Radio implementations
            of the
            > existing formats.

            Indeed, all it does it introduce yet another format to handle. The
            spec appears to have nothing in the way of text formatting, support
            for Unicode or HTML.

            If Radio and Manila created suitable structures there wouldn't BE a
            need for any other formats.

            While OPML might be great for outlining it doesn't seem any better
            than existing solutions and is perhaps worse.

            It would be nice to see the RSS 0.93 spec get some attention...

            When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
            When all you have is an outliner...
          • Dave Winer
            OK -- if anyone wants to use the content we re publishing [1], send me a private email. This mail list is not the place to discuss it. We ll set up a special
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 17, 2001
              OK -- if anyone wants to use the content we're publishing [1], send me a
              private email.

              This mail list is not the place to discuss it.

              We'll set up a special mail list for this project, with higher turnaround,
              and without the critics.

              Sorry for the interruption..

              Dave

              [1] http://backend.userland.com/stories/storyReader$134
            • Julian Bond
              In article , Dave Winer writes ... If it s intended to be a general purpose *syndication* format,
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 17, 2001
                In article <07ba01c13fc5$5c99e020$33a1dc40@murphy>, Dave Winer
                <dave@...> writes
                >OK -- if anyone wants to use the content we're publishing [1], send me a
                >private email.
                >
                >This mail list is not the place to discuss it.

                If it's intended to be a general purpose *syndication* format, then this
                is as good a place as any to discuss and criticise it, as it's going to
                come to the attention of a goodly number of potential implementors. Let
                it stand or fall on it's perceived merits.

                If this is intended to be a Userland internal format, that just happens
                to be publicly accessible, then it's Userland's choice.

                But then that's just my opinion. It is of course, always your choice
                whether Userland joins in, or not.

                --
                Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
                CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
                WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
                HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
              • Dave Winer
                Regardless, we ll keep working on this stuff -- in whatever environment works. Have a nice day Julian and everyone else, and good luck digging out! Dave ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 18, 2001
                  Regardless, we'll keep working on this stuff -- in whatever environment
                  works.

                  Have a nice day Julian and everyone else, and good luck digging out!

                  Dave


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Julian Bond" <julian_bond@...>
                  To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:46 PM
                  Subject: Re: [syndication] Re: Announce: Scripting News in OPML


                  > In article <07ba01c13fc5$5c99e020$33a1dc40@murphy>, Dave Winer
                  > <dave@...> writes
                  > >OK -- if anyone wants to use the content we're publishing [1], send me a
                  > >private email.
                  > >
                  > >This mail list is not the place to discuss it.
                  >
                  > If it's intended to be a general purpose *syndication* format, then this
                  > is as good a place as any to discuss and criticise it, as it's going to
                  > come to the attention of a goodly number of potential implementors. Let
                  > it stand or fall on it's perceived merits.
                  >
                  > If this is intended to be a Userland internal format, that just happens
                  > to be publicly accessible, then it's Userland's choice.
                  >
                  > But then that's just my opinion. It is of course, always your choice
                  > whether Userland joins in, or not.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
                  > CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
                  > WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
                  > HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                  > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
                  > ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Bill Kearney
                  ... this ... going to ... Let ... Yet another format that Dave invents without input from the public. Yet another RSS debacle all over again. Heaven
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 18, 2001
                    > If it's intended to be a general purpose *syndication* format, then
                    this
                    > is as good a place as any to discuss and criticise it, as it's
                    going to
                    > come to the attention of a goodly number of potential implementors.
                    Let
                    > it stand or fall on it's perceived merits.

                    <sigh> Yet another format that Dave invents without input from the
                    public. Yet another RSS debacle all over again. Heaven forbid
                    there's any critics of it. Look at the RSS 0.93 stagnation, it's
                    because of critics. There are a lot of good comments in the group.

                    My comments about using this OPML format for news are intended as
                    valid criticism. There's little or nothing in the OPML format that
                    is listed as support for many newsfeed related fields. While I'm
                    sure it could be made to support it, so too could the RSS-whatever
                    formats.

                    But apparently an open discussion is not what's desired.

                    -Bill Kearney
                  • Dave Winer
                    OPML is a fine format, it s XML-based, there are several tools for creating OPML, it s the format behind all the directories we re doing, and if you want to
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 18, 2001
                      OPML is a fine format, it's XML-based, there are several tools for creating
                      OPML, it's the format behind all the directories we're doing, and if you
                      want to build hierarchies, it's the best format out there for that. It also
                      is a good format for writing weblogs and several of us are doing that, and I
                      suspect more will in the future. The more creative people in this space
                      would do well, imho, to look at it and consider supporting it. Re defending
                      my contribution to RSS, well, I did a lot to get it going. Have a nice day
                      one and all. Dave

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@...>
                      To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 7:02 AM
                      Subject: [syndication] Re: Announce: Scripting News in OPML


                      >
                      > > If it's intended to be a general purpose *syndication* format, then
                      > this
                      > > is as good a place as any to discuss and criticise it, as it's
                      > going to
                      > > come to the attention of a goodly number of potential implementors.
                      > Let
                      > > it stand or fall on it's perceived merits.
                      >
                      > <sigh> Yet another format that Dave invents without input from the
                      > public. Yet another RSS debacle all over again. Heaven forbid
                      > there's any critics of it. Look at the RSS 0.93 stagnation, it's
                      > because of critics. There are a lot of good comments in the group.
                      >
                      > My comments about using this OPML format for news are intended as
                      > valid criticism. There's little or nothing in the OPML format that
                      > is listed as support for many newsfeed related fields. While I'm
                      > sure it could be made to support it, so too could the RSS-whatever
                      > formats.
                      >
                      > But apparently an open discussion is not what's desired.
                      >
                      > -Bill Kearney
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Mike Krus
                      Hi, ... I just added support for this format on NewsIsFree: http://www.newsisfree.com/sources/info/336/ Much easier to use than scriptingNews2.xml and much
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 18, 2001
                        Hi,

                        Dave Winer wrote:
                        > I'm pleased to announce that Scripting News is now available in OPML
                        I just added support for this format on NewsIsFree:
                        http://www.newsisfree.com/sources/info/336/

                        Much easier to use than scriptingNews2.xml and much less broken than
                        the rss.xml.

                        The sample file you produce has not sub items so I have not been
                        able to play with them and see could be done. Currently, they'll just
                        appear at the same level as the others.

                        Feature request: a perma link for each item.

                        On a side note: although I like OPML and have used in the past
                        (NewsIsFree exports all its feeds to OPML, service list is available
                        in OPML [1], our category structure is available in OPML [2]), I
                        must say I hope this new format will not be an excuse for not
                        fixing the broken RSS exports.

                        I don't use any Userland product so I don't have a voice as a customer.
                        But I do use the feeds produced by those products, and it seems hard to
                        believe that those formating problems so many people have been
                        complaining about could not be fixed without demanding too much
                        effort (especially given the apparent skills of Userland programmers!)


                        Anyway, these new feeds seems to work very nicely and I strongly
                        suggest you deploy them accross all Manilla sites.


                        Mike

                        [1] http://www.newsisfree.com/HPE/xml/servicelist.opml
                        [2] http://www.newsisfree.com/HPE/xml/categories.opml

                        --
                        NewsIsFree http://www.newsisfree.com/
                        http://www.newsisfree.com/module.php?mod=blog&op=view&name=Mike+Krus
                        Jabber: mkrus@... MSN: mwkrus@... ICQ: 30900412
                      • Dave Winer
                        Mike, thanks for picking up the ball with the OPML version of Scripting News, and thanks for the suggestions, they come at a good time, when I can think about
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 19, 2001
                          Mike, thanks for picking up the ball with the OPML version of Scripting
                          News, and thanks for the suggestions, they come at a good time, when I can
                          think about them, and possibly implement them as the new stuff we're working
                          on develops and then deploys. Permalinks is now one of the things I'm
                          thinking about. I have to do it in a way that scales, and that makes sense
                          for the authors.

                          Re: "The sample file you produce has no sub-items" -- Today [1] I've made a
                          point to use hierarchy in Scripting News, so you now have a good sample file
                          that shows how that works (there are others in the archive folder, this is
                          not a new art). Some days I use structure, other days, esp ones where
                          there's lots of news, it's flat. Doc Searls [2] appears to use structure
                          every day. There's no static OPML version of his home page yet.

                          Re the complaints and problems -- it's a matter of having very few spare
                          cycles for programming these days. This is what I've been able to accomplish
                          so far. I've written at length over a couple of years on the problems of RSS
                          modeling weblog content. I think that if we do a bootstrap [3] here, we may
                          get to a better place in a reasonable period of time.

                          BTW, I've gotten a few emails from other engineers working in similar areas.
                          Thank you. Right now my focus is on outlines and directories, but I am also
                          interested in distributed prefs [4], and other topics, again, in the small
                          amount of time I have while doing other things.

                          Also, I'm not going to respond to orders or challenges to my ethics on this
                          list. Assume that when someone does this I would like to defend myself, but
                          am trusting the people on this list to figure that out for themselves.

                          Thanks again, and let's do some interesting bootstraps.

                          Dave

                          [1] http://www.scripting.com/xml/outlineArchive/2001/09/19.xml
                          [2] http://doc.weblogs.com/
                          [3] http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2001/09/19#bootstrapping
                          [4] http://www.drop.org/node.php?id=531
                        • Mike Krus
                          ... no problem, I like things which make my life easier ;-) ... I just updated the parser to produce ... ... with nested items. I like it (even
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 19, 2001
                            Dave Winer wrote:
                            > Mike, thanks for picking up the ball with the OPML version of
                            > Scripting News
                            no problem, I like things which make my life easier ;-)

                            > Re: "The sample file you produce has no sub-items" -- Today [1] I've
                            > made a point to use hierarchy in Scripting News, so you now have a
                            > good sample file that shows how that works (there are others in the
                            > archive folder, this is not a new art). Some days I use structure,
                            > other days, esp ones where there's lots of news, it's flat.
                            I just updated the parser to produce <UL>...<LI>...</UL> with
                            nested items. I like it (even though I'll have to tweak the CSS
                            to remove all that white space):
                            http://www.newsisfree.com/sources/info/336/


                            Mike

                            --
                            NewsIsFree http://www.newsisfree.com/
                            http://www.newsisfree.com/module.php?mod=blog&op=view&name=Mike+Krus
                            Jabber: mkrus@... MSN: mwkrus@... ICQ: 30900412
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