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Come on, let's move past this - Let's just choose a name!

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  • Jeff Barr
    Everyone, This is getting tedious. We are wasting valuable brain cells and irrecoverable time[1] fighting about something that can be fixed so easily. Let s
    Message 1 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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      Everyone,

      This is getting tedious. We are wasting valuable brain cells and
      irrecoverable time[1] fighting about something that can be fixed so
      easily. Let's pick two new names that do not include the string "RSS",
      label the two branches as that, document the fork and the reasons for
      it, and then do some great work TOGETHER.

      10% of the list membership is going to wake up tomorrow morning,
      see this boatload of messages, a lack of progress, and simply
      find something else to do. We can lose momentum just as easily
      as that. These communities are fragile.

      Chances to set good standards do not come along very often. Let
      me tell a story:

      A long long time ago I was a member of an X (as in Window System for
      you newbies) Consortium Technical Committee. We had a simple task --
      agree to a drag and drop protocol for X. Despite meeting for several
      days each quarter for over 18 months, we accomplished nothing. And
      now, to this day, as far as I know there is not a real protocol
      standard. We had our chance, and we blew it.

      While we were getting nowhere, some guys up in Redmond made decisions
      in days, not years, and they shipped a product. These were the days
      when X and Windows were fighting for the desktop. Guess what? X did
      not win. Not for the lack of a drag and drop protocol, but because
      people were fighting a civil war against their countrymen when
      there was an invader at the border that they were too busy to see.

      Let's not look back in 10 years on the chance we had here to invent
      great formats for syndication and realize that, for the lack of the
      ability to change some names, we robbed the world of tons of great
      syndicated content.

      So, my proposal is as follows:

      Let's declare a moratorium on discussing anything except new names
      until the end of the day next Monday. We'll take a vote, and then we
      will move forward.

      BTW, all of you lurkers out there, please jump in and say something.

      Jeff;

      [1] - Instead of reading all of this email this evening, I could have:
      a - Spent more time IM'ing with my family from my hotel
      b - Posted 3 new newsfeeds to newsfeeds.manilasites.com
      c - Add a new feature to Headline Viewer
    • Rael Dornfest
      Jeff, ... I don t think we can conclude that this is the community choice -- there seems to be a mixture of opinions on this front. It s downright trivial to
      Message 2 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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        Jeff,

        > From: Jeff Barr [mailto:jeff@...]

        > This is getting tedious. We are wasting valuable brain cells and
        > irrecoverable time[1] fighting about something that can be fixed so
        > easily. Let's pick two new names that do not include the string "RSS",
        > label the two branches as that, document the fork and the reasons for
        > it, and then do some great work TOGETHER.

        I don't think we can conclude that this is the community choice -- there
        seems to be a mixture of opinions on this front. It's downright trivial to
        have a neutral pollster such as Mark N. pop up a poll asking simply whether
        folks favour RSS-* or new names entirely. One quick click of a radio button
        and our weekend is free to do with as we see fit.

        That's a massive leap forward with minimal effort, afterwhich the naming fun
        can begin. Anyone (aside from Aaron ;-) second that proposal?

        Rael
      • Seth Russell
        From: Rael Dornfest ... fun ... I disagree. We need to know where we are jumping before we jump. Then the vote will be more for the new
        Message 3 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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          From: "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...>

          > That's a massive leap forward with minimal effort, afterwhich the naming
          fun
          > can begin. Anyone (aside from Aaron ;-) second that proposal?

          I disagree. We need to know where we are jumping before we jump. Then the
          vote will be more for the new name than just a tired old worn out opinion as
          to quagmire we have gotten into.

          I like Jeff's suggestion that we stop the bickering and voting and see if we
          can actually find a new catchy name.

          That's all ... im going to bed .. I can't wait to see the morning's SMCAST
          and think about the excitement engendered by surprising new things.

          Seth
        • Rael Dornfest
          Hi, ... So what of the folks, and I m not just talking about RDF ers, who prefer RSS-*? They just have to go along with it? Rael
          Message 4 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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            Hi,

            > From: Seth Russell [mailto:seth@...]

            > > That's a massive leap forward with minimal effort, afterwhich the naming
            > fun
            > > can begin. Anyone (aside from Aaron ;-) second that proposal?
            >
            > I disagree. We need to know where we are jumping before we jump.
            > Then the
            > vote will be more for the new name than just a tired old worn out
            > opinion as
            > to quagmire we have gotten into.
            >
            > I like Jeff's suggestion that we stop the bickering and voting
            > and see if we
            > can actually find a new catchy name.

            So what of the folks, and I'm not just talking about RDF'ers, who prefer
            RSS-*? They just have to go along with it?

            Rael
          • Dave Winer
            The polls are already running. Here are three places you all can express your approval or disapproval on the roadmap I posted: 1.
            Message 5 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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              The polls are already running. Here are three places you all can express
              your approval or disapproval on the roadmap I posted:

              1. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/reallySimpleSyndication/surveys?id=10073724

              2. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/surveys?id=687541

              3.
              http://backend.userland.com/surveys/run/dave@.../approveRssRoadmap

              I believe Mark is going to Europe next week and I think we're almost done
              anyway. Let's pick the names, leave RSS at 0.91 so Alis can write a simple
              FAQ, and let's move on to some cool software.

              About Jeff's story about X-Windows vs Microsoft Windows, he's right on the
              money. RSS is on its last legs. The only thing RSS has going for it is the
              large installed base grouped around 0.90 and 0.91. There's absolutely no
              time to waste in getting the market focused on the format, forget the 0.92
              additions, we'll market those separately, you must do the same with your
              work.

              Dave


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...>
              To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:10 PM
              Subject: RE: [syndication] Come on, let's move past this - Let's just choose
              a name!


              > Jeff,
              >
              > > From: Jeff Barr [mailto:jeff@...]
              >
              > > This is getting tedious. We are wasting valuable brain cells and
              > > irrecoverable time[1] fighting about something that can be fixed so
              > > easily. Let's pick two new names that do not include the string "RSS",
              > > label the two branches as that, document the fork and the reasons for
              > > it, and then do some great work TOGETHER.
              >
              > I don't think we can conclude that this is the community choice -- there
              > seems to be a mixture of opinions on this front. It's downright trivial
              to
              > have a neutral pollster such as Mark N. pop up a poll asking simply
              whether
              > folks favour RSS-* or new names entirely. One quick click of a radio
              button
              > and our weekend is free to do with as we see fit.
              >
              > That's a massive leap forward with minimal effort, afterwhich the naming
              fun
              > can begin. Anyone (aside from Aaron ;-) second that proposal?
              >
              > Rael
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Dave Winer
              ... RSS-*? They just have to go along with it? Let s start a new book publishing company called O Reilly Associates-South. You can call your company O Reilly
              Message 6 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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                >>So what of the folks, and I'm not just talking about RDF'ers, who prefer
                RSS-*? They just have to go along with it?

                Let's start a new book publishing company called O'Reilly Associates-South.

                You can call your company O'Reilly Associates-North.

                Shall we run a poll? ;->

                The moral of the story is that we can ask people what they think, but if
                you've been listening, they've been looking to you and me to settle this.

                You are getting a lot of patience from a lot of people, at least ten months
                worth, but come on Rael, the people are already voting and we've spent a lot
                of time haggling over what RSS is, when it was always perfectly clear what
                it actually is. How much more of this should we do? And why?

                Dave
              • Julian Bond
                In article , Jeff Barr writes ... Not lurking, just sleeping. IMHO
                Message 7 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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                  In article <NEBBIIHGCLNJBKNCFIGLMEFACPAA.jeff@...>, Jeff Barr
                  <jeff@...> writes
                  >BTW, all of you lurkers out there, please jump in and say something.

                  Not lurking, just sleeping.

                  IMHO
                  RSS-SomeEnglishQualifier is not going to work. The great thing about
                  acronyms is that they can mean whatever you want them to mean. But the
                  moment you put real English into the name it's going to be limiting.
                  What is RSS-Content? What's simple about RSS-Simple? What the hell does
                  RSS-Semantic mean. And so on.

                  This is exactly why I proposed RDFSS . I think it's safe to say that the
                  protocol currently known as "RSS 1.0" will always include rdf. So RDF
                  Site Summary is exactly what it is. And if "Site Summary" is not a
                  perfect description of what it's about, then think up some other SS
                  names.

                  I'm less sure about RSSML, that I proposed before. It feels like
                  wherever it goes, it will be Really Simple. It'll probably be a markup
                  language. But ask Dave (from memory, I can't find the post) and it's
                  about *content*. Perhaps RSCML would be better.

                  And now I'm going to be late for work...

                  --
                  Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                  HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                  WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                  WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                  ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
                • Rael Dornfest
                  ... And you re not a fan of the format mine took and I, along with some others on your reallysimplesyndication list, find yours not particularly even handed.
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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                    > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]

                    > The polls are already running. Here are three places you all can express
                    > your approval or disapproval on the roadmap I posted:
                    >
                    > 1.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/reallySimpleSyndication/surveys?id=10073724
                    >
                    > 2. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/surveys?id=687541
                    >
                    > 3.
                    > http://backend.userland.com/surveys/run/dave@.../approveR
                    > ssRoadmap

                    And you're not a fan of the format mine took and I, along with some others
                    on your reallysimplesyndication list, find yours not particularly even
                    handed. I'm asking for one simple survey in a central place created without
                    load, something along the lines of:

                    What's your choice on the RSS naming issue?

                    a) RSS-* (where * is some branch name)
                    b) Both sides choose completely different names
                    c) Leave things as they are

                    No "Let's eliminate the confusion and move on" or any such verbage.

                    > I believe Mark is going to Europe next week and I think we're almost done
                    > anyway. Let's pick the names, leave RSS at 0.91 so Alis can write a simple
                    > FAQ, and let's move on to some cool software.

                    I'm all for moving on, as quickly as possible; just look at how quickly I
                    jumped on your proposal and sent you initial approval notes both private and
                    public. But sweeping choice under the carpet for expediency's sake is not
                    what I believed community was all about. It's not like folks aren't
                    speaking up; give them an unbiased way of doing so.

                    > About Jeff's story about X-Windows vs Microsoft Windows, he's right on the
                    > money. RSS is on its last legs. The only thing RSS has going for it is the
                    > large installed base grouped around 0.90 and 0.91.

                    In your eyes, Dave. In your eyes.

                    > There's absolutely no
                    > time to waste in getting the market focused on the format, forget the 0.92
                    > additions, we'll market those separately, you must do the same with your
                    > work.

                    Agreed.

                    Rael
                  • Rael Dornfest
                    Dave, ... But it s just not up to you and me to settle this, can t you understand that? You and I do _not_ own RSS, nor are we crowned prince or benevolent
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 31, 2001
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                      Dave,

                      > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]

                      > >>So what of the folks, and I'm not just talking about RDF'ers, who prefer
                      > RSS-*? They just have to go along with it?

                      > The moral of the story is that we can ask people what they think, but if
                      > you've been listening, they've been looking to you and me to settle this.

                      But it's just not up to you and me to settle this, can't you understand
                      that? You and I do _not_ own RSS, nor are we crowned prince or benevolent
                      dictator.

                      If so, we'd have settled it in the first conversation we had in April.
                      You invited me into this community process and I've come to trust and
                      believe in it. I'm not being pedantic here, only democratic.

                      Let's run that poll, see what it says first thing Monday, and move on with
                      building an agreement that has some hope of passing by our respective
                      authorities; the rest is, as we've seen, very much in-line.

                      > You are getting a lot of patience from a lot of people, at least
                      > ten months
                      > worth, but come on Rael, the people are already voting and we've
                      > spent a lot
                      > of time haggling over what RSS is, when it was always perfectly clear what
                      > it actually is. How much more of this should we do? And why?

                      We should do one single unbiased centralized vote in front of a community of
                      our peers and see what they say. I can't believe you have a problem with
                      this.

                      Rael
                    • Dave Winer
                      Look, I made a fair offer, I gather you re not accepting it. Not talking about you as in the RS-DEV group, which *does* appear to be accepting it, I m
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 1, 2001
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                        Look, I made a fair offer, I gather you're not accepting it.

                        Not talking about "you" as in the RS-DEV group, which *does* appear to be
                        accepting it, I'm talking about you, Rael Dornfest.

                        By the way, the reallySimpleSyndication list, which would also be giving up
                        the right to use the name RSS, is showing its colors beautifully. 14-to-2,
                        they say "let's move on and clear up the confusion."

                        My opinion: RSS-* is terrible, just as bad as the mess we have now. I've
                        never seen a fork that happened that way. So damned confusing. So much to
                        explain to people who don't care.

                        And while I was writing this, yet another "RSS 1.0" post appeared here.
                        Maybe it's too late. Maybe RSS already means nothing. Yuck!

                        Dave



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Rael Dornfest" <rael@...>
                        To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:52 PM
                        Subject: RE: [syndication] Come on, let's move past this - Let's just choose
                        a name!


                        > Dave,
                        >
                        > > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                        >
                        > > >>So what of the folks, and I'm not just talking about RDF'ers, who
                        prefer
                        > > RSS-*? They just have to go along with it?
                        >
                        > > The moral of the story is that we can ask people what they think, but if
                        > > you've been listening, they've been looking to you and me to settle
                        this.
                        >
                        > But it's just not up to you and me to settle this, can't you understand
                        > that? You and I do _not_ own RSS, nor are we crowned prince or benevolent
                        > dictator.
                        >
                        > If so, we'd have settled it in the first conversation we had in April.
                        > You invited me into this community process and I've come to trust and
                        > believe in it. I'm not being pedantic here, only democratic.
                        >
                        > Let's run that poll, see what it says first thing Monday, and move on with
                        > building an agreement that has some hope of passing by our respective
                        > authorities; the rest is, as we've seen, very much in-line.
                        >
                        > > You are getting a lot of patience from a lot of people, at least
                        > > ten months
                        > > worth, but come on Rael, the people are already voting and we've
                        > > spent a lot
                        > > of time haggling over what RSS is, when it was always perfectly clear
                        what
                        > > it actually is. How much more of this should we do? And why?
                        >
                        > We should do one single unbiased centralized vote in front of a community
                        of
                        > our peers and see what they say. I can't believe you have a problem with
                        > this.
                        >
                        > Rael
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Bill Kearney
                        ... The Yahoo web interface bastardizes anything with an @ sign in it. (thinking it s an e-mail address and guarding against spam trolls no doubt) -Bill
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 1, 2001
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                          > http://backend.userland.com/surveys/run/dave@u.../approveRssRoadmap

                          The Yahoo web interface bastardizes anything with an @ sign in it.
                          (thinking it's an e-mail address and guarding against spam trolls no
                          doubt)

                          -Bill Kearney
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